Improving arrow cresting...

[stringnstik]

I tagged my findings on the end of this thread rather than start a new one.

Intro
Before xmas I did a quick cresting try on my first ever arrow a flu flu. I had some old Humbrol paints lying around and a drill and Bob's the arrow builder. On this and after reading some more on the subject I went out and bought some acrylic paints, built a proper felt pad like spindal cresting jig arrangement and an arrow rack for mass production.

Paints used for cresting
I purchased some from Spotlight. To me the Derivian brand looked good. The company sells cheap and expensive paints and had a vast range. They must know what they are doing? so away I went.
Boy was I deflated when I got home..After more reading and searching I did find other references to my problem.. dont you just love that. Finding the answer after the arrow has left the chin.
Most had the same problem. Watery looking where the brush touched the arrow and ridges forming on the side of the brush. I tried watering down and thickening with poly varnish and/or sealer in with it( I had bought these for others parts in the process). All separate trials, same wood same brush, no better.
Tried a different brush. no diff. Ransacked the kids craft box and tried different paints.
Derivian Student range..no good especially the fluros. However the black seemed to work better.
Derivian Artist range..better a bit like the black but not exactly brilliant.
Colorburst folk art (Wharehouse $2 job) Slightly better than the Derivian Student but not as good as the Artist.
Palmer Prisim Acrylic (Warehouse $2 job) Not bad at all!! Usable even.

Now I cant vouch for the age of the kids paints. Maybe the Palmer was older and had thickened or something. If I see them again I might try a new bottle just for the peace of mind.

I tried my old Humbol paints again.. brilliant worked like a charm shame about the 5 hour wait which I dont think would be a problem anyway when batch producing. Ok clean up in thinners yeah I know but the paint just rolls on. Pin striping was even possible... not a hope with the water acrylics.

Im very interested if someone can put me straight. But I tried various techniques. lots of paint little paint hard application light application etc. The shafts were pre-sealed a day b4, with their recommended goop. And on that i noticed the Humbrol went on bare unsealed wood no trouble.

Interested in any thoughts.
I noticed on the http://www.matisse.com.au/index.htmDerivian site there was a host of "mediums" that could be mixed. Would they help?

Or do I just roll on the Humbrol.

[Mick Smith]

I've used Humbol enamal paints for cresting and you're right, it does go on very nicely, but where it's inferior to acrylic paint is when you decide to protect your crest with a coating or two of clear laquer. Enamal paint has the nasty tendency to react with most clear finishes, bubbling up and ruining your efforts. Enamal is good if you leave it alone as the top coat. It's fairly durable too, but it's not as long lasting as acrylic crests with two coats of polyeurathane over the top to protect it.

You've discovered the biggest problem with using acrylic paint and that's that it's hard to find one that covers well. Some colours cover much better than others, even in the same brand of paint.

When I'm cresting, I start off by sealing the shaft with one coat of polyeurathane. I then crest the entire area to be crested with a good silver acrylic paint. The silver paint covers really well. It's an artists paint. Once the silver has dried I apply the other colours, leaving small gaps between the colours that, when finished, look like silver pin stripes. I use artists acrylic paint that has been thinned down with water until it has almost the consistency of water. It doesn't take much water to do this. The thinned down acrylic goes on the shaft every bit as well as enamal. The fact that it's nice and thin, means it doesn't leave unsightly ridges, etc in the finish. When the covering coats of polyeurathane go over the top, the colours blend in even better, as it tends to eliminate slight variations in the paint thickness to some extent.

The beauty of doing your cresting in this manner, ie, painting the silver first and then painting the various colours on top, is that you can paint an entire crest in the one go, because there's no fear of mixing the various colours as you leave a small gap between them. This speeds up the process as you're not always swapping shafts and waiting for them to dry before your able to continue. Another advantage is that you can regulate the thickness of your 'pin stripes' easily as they're actually just gaps between the colours, with the silver showing through. The silver acrylic makes an excellent undercoat too, as it tends to brighten the colours on top.

I just buy my acrylic paint at Bunnings. I try them out and if they don't cover well I just give them to the kids to play with. If they do cover well I keep them for future use.

I use very small brushes, even when painting large blocks of colours and I then feather the paint by lightly running the tip of the brush across the crested area. This evens up the finish and ensures the colour is nice and uniform in colour and depth.

It's essential when cresting to get a good coverage with just the one coat, because if you paint on two coats the finish is too raised and it looks terrible.

I hope this rambling reply is of some use to you.

Mick

[stringnstik]

two things
but before that many thanks on your reply

first, I just noticed that Humbrol have acrylic and enamel and yes i used the enamel.

second, interesting you say silver because i tried silver and it was resonable much like the Student black and the Artists range red. I never would have thought of using silver(pinstriping) as the base.. very clever
I was heading to put the white on as an undercoat but it just wouldnt take at all.

are you referring to the jo sonjas tubes in bunnings?
I did um n ahh about using them .. trust me to pick on the um and not the ahh.

Out of interest I have emailed Derivian for advice , ill let you know if they say anything.

[Buford]

I have used these matisse mediums in some of my paintings (on canvas, not cresting )
Off the top of my head they would not be suitable. The structure medium is designed to build texture on the canvas more than to thicken the applied colour as the colour itself in the tube is relatively thick already (for application with a brush as intended) The Flow might work....... its kinda like adding thinners to a house paint (vaguely). I think it would be an expensive way to crest arrows though by the time you buy your base colour and the flow medium.

If you really want to try something different, try sign writing paint. They make them to go onto just about any surface you can think of. The only draw back is you usually have to buy in relatively large quantities unless you know a sign writer. ...... other wise, hobby/ model paints in my mind are the go

Cheers
Matt

[stringnstik]

Thanks buford,
I had a big play tonight and tired various concoctions watering down etc and yes the correct consistency can be achieved, They can come out looking quite good but it differers according to colour and would be very tricky to duplicate. I suspect this might be the same over the different types of acrylics where as the oil type hobby paints just seem to work better all round.

[stringnstik]

ok Mr "Matisse salesperson" kindly got back to me and we spoke at length. Well he spoke and I listened.
It confirmed all we have found.
1)Colours within a range will differ in their amenability to our use.
He explained this as opacity changes and pigment types. Fluros being the worst and also susceptible to fading in sunlight. Paints with cadmium are much better than phthalo ones for ex. Earthy colours generally better. I also noted that silver(and gold) had high O ratings which might explain why Mick has found silver to work well as the base.
This opacity "rating" is specified in the Matisse Flow range.
Within that range choose those with the "O" "paint" rating (the B column)
2) The lower end ranges of paint have many "filler" things which dont help our cause.
3) the Matisse flow range may be our best bet.
But was not guaranteed. So for completeness sake I will try one of these and report back.

It was certainly very interesting chatting to the man and learning once again humbly, how little I/we know and i very much appreciate and thank his time.

One may ask why I persist.. I had a quick look at the prices and when I weigh up the paint price and the ease of use, the acrylics still looks good over the solvent based paints...if of course we can get them to work. I honestly feel that they are not far off it either.

What I have also noticed since is the range of MINIs and ink that these guys produce.. I wonder if they might be of use.

[Mick Smith]

Stringnstik

For what its worth, I've found the following colours are the best for giving a good solid and even coverage, Silver is great, but strangely I've found the gold not to be anywhere near as good for some reason. Black covers like a dream, even when it's thinned right down. I've found a nice bright red that covers really well too. So, if you have a good look at most of my recent arrows, you might notice the above colours appearing on my crests time and again.

Mick

[stringnstik]

Nice arras Mick.
I ran my first batch last night. Starting to get the hang of it. I purchased some Matisse Flow and they are better but not as easy to use as the hobby paints.
I am using the cheaper brand of hobby paint too.
Gunze Sangyo (Mr Hobby) aquieous range (water acrylics) found in some hobby shops. These flow nicely and give a good solid band. Being non solvent based its easy to put on and clean up too!

Back to the Matisse Flow, I tired two OO (opaque) and one ST (semitransparent) and there is a big difference in how these go on , just as the sales rep said. The ST was really blaa. Im so hanging out to find and try the MINIs range. But for now the combination of Flow and hobby will have to do.

I also tried Jo sonjas(craft paints, avl bunnings) black and it was not too shabby. While the Kaiser was too thick.

Most paints can be used with different techniques but you can really tell the ease of some when going from one type to the other. Some are just a dream to work with.

I also noticed just how un straight cheap arrow shafts are..makes for very ordinary banding

Its very addictive isnt it?? lol and Im not even getting good results yet but feel it will come with time.