Feathers

Message

MIK · #1 Post by **MIK** » Fri Sep 05, 2003 10:30 pm

Hiya Guys

big question as i am new to this traditional stuff

with real feathers does a right handed archer use the left or right wing feathers or do they all just have to be from the same wing

rather confusing issue as i have had different answers from most people i have asked

early next year i plan to head over to Flinders or King Islnad in order to try and harvest a couple of turkeys and gain some real feathers ... hate to bring back the wrong ones

thanks
MIK

Butch Speer · #2 Post by **Butch Speer** » Fri Sep 05, 2003 10:58 pm

Mik,
I use both. It really doesn't make a whole lot of difference as long as you don't mix them up on the same arrow. That said, I do like left wing better. I shoot right hand & the left wing feathers don't hit my finger when I shoot off the knuckle.

Jackrat · #3 Post by **Jackrat** » Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:17 pm

Mik,Iv,e used both,as long as you don,t mix them it don,t seem to make any diff,that I can see.I shoot left handed and shoot right wing for the same reason as Butch has stated,Other than that take your pick.
Good luck,, Jack.

Singlestring · #4 Post by **Singlestring** » Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:21 pm

G'day MIK,
As I know it does not matter what hand you shoot.
It only matters that all the same feathers on the same arrow ,eg. all right on one arrow.
Because of the natural curve on the feather if your using helical clamps right wing will need a right helical & vice versa.
If your chopping the feathers the 'Banana' shape will do both left or right .
In shield , parabolic etc.. you'll need left & right.

Also match feathers of the same stifness on same arrow.
Happy plucking!

erron · #5 Post by **erron** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 8:57 am

MIK,

I've always been told that it doesn't matter, left or right, just don't mix them up on the same arrow.

Interesting observation of yours Butch, about the direction mattering when shooting off the knuckle, hadn't heard that before. Thanks.

Steve (Singlestring)

If your chopping the feathers the 'Banana' shape will do both left or right .

Now that's interesting, too. Trust a Banana Bender to make that observation.

Seriously, what shape is the banana?

Erron

erron · #6 Post by **erron** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 9:23 am

BTW MIK,

don't wait for the chance at a 'turkey in the feathers'

Shoot me an email and I'll send you some feathers to get started on (assuming you don't have enough to get started). I talked a mate into running Turkeys a couple of years ago, and he's usually got a few feathers for me now.

Erron

MIK · #7 Post by **MIK** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 12:30 am

thanks guys

another question though

if you have a set of arrows with 3 arrowswith rights and 3 arrows with lefts. do they group differently???

i find it rather amazing that there is as much technical side to traditional as there is to shhoting Bowhunter Unlimited, but then again i am fairly slap happy with my compound ... took a lot of playing around to work out what works as well as a lot of mulla

this website allows us incompetants (NEWBIES) to ask questions of those in the nose

thanks guys for all your help
MIK

Jackrat · #8 Post by **Jackrat** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 8:13 am

MIK, good question.I have never shot two diffrently flecthed arrows at the same time.I would imagine there may be a diff,but you would probably adjust to it with out even realising it,MAYBE,,,
You are certainly right when you say trad, is far more involved than we some times think.With the feathers cuting your index finger, I had never even considered it until Butch mentioned it,Then I realised when I started shooting right wing left handed yrs ago mainly for conveniance due to not being able buy left wing feathers,I also stopped chopping my finger up.
I guess a hundred years ago that was common knowlage.
Keep the questions coming,In a sport as old as Archery, we are all newbies.
Cheers an thanks,,,Jack.

Butch Speer · #9 Post by **Butch Speer** » Mon Sep 08, 2003 12:45 am

Erron,
I read that in Byron Ferguson's book, Become the Arrow. He shoots off a rest & shows how a left wing will clear the rest when a right wing hits it. Works great for shooting off the knuckle.

erron · #10 Post by **erron** » Mon Sep 08, 2003 12:41 pm

Ah, another book to buy/read!

Erron

Dennis La Varenne · #11 Post by **Dennis La Varenne** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 3:43 am

To Mik from Gippsland, what everyone else has been saying about not mixing feathers on the same arrow is correct, but I seriously doubt that shooting 3 lefts and 3 rights into a group will make much difference unless you are an Olympic archer shooting at long distance . . . or Byron Ferguson.

With respect to the business of the feather hitting the knuckle when shot from a selfbow, this is not because of the wing side (R or L) so much as not having the correct tiller in the upper limb for your shooting style. I say this because, like Glen Newell, I have made one or two of them over the years.

If your bow is correctly tillered, the fletched arrow should clear your knuckle by some 3 to 5 mm and the same amount out from the arrowplate as the arrow paradoxes past the bow. Those of you who have hooked their knuckle on the leading edge of the lower bow feather will remember that it bit their knuckle this far out from the arrowplate.

The simplest way to correct this is to raise your string nock point by that amount. The correct minimum amount to raise your string nock point above horizontal on any bow is the same amount as the tiller in the upper limb of your bow. You will also find that your bow will shoot 'sweeter' too.

In case some of you do not know what tiller is, it is the amount of extra bend in the upper limb which compensates for the effect of the bowhand pushing against the drawn bow which tends to try to force the lower limb to bend more than the upper, usually because of the grip position relative to the limbtips.

If there is more bend in one limb WHEN THE BOW IS DRAWN, the tips will move forward at different speeds and times and result in obvious handshock, and in bad cases, porpoising of the arrow.

In a correctly tillered bow, when it is drawn, both limbtips will be drawn behind the handle by the same amount and the curves of each limb will mirror each other.

Hope this helps, Mik. By the way, I think you know me through the ABA bowhunting defence committee.

MIK · #12 Post by **MIK** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 9:31 pm

howdy doody dennis

thanks for the heads up on the tiller bit ... would a bow with the knocking point placed correctly due to the tiller also stop wearing the edge of the bottom feather on an arrow???

all the other feathers are fine its just the bottom one wear i would say it is running of the shelf upon release

a couple of other questions while we are on the subject of feathers

all feathers ( i shoot the shield cut due to liking the way they look) seem to be rather high profile ... has anyone tried shooting a lower profile feather just like (yes i know it is only a movie) legolas in the lord of the rings.

if you have tried what have been the results - curious (must be the sighted archer in me surfacing)

now to preparing real feathers

how does one split the feathers?
just a sharp knife???

are both sides usable???

what else needs to be done prior to it being attached to the arrow??

i know i ask a lot of questions but i hope this is also helping others as well as me

and yes dennis i am on your list of emails for the bowhunting defence in Victoria

thanks guys
MIK

Dennis La Varenne · #13 Post by **Dennis La Varenne** » Thu Sep 11, 2003 5:49 am

Q1. Yes, it would stop lower feather wear. That is a classic symptom of the nock point too low.

Q2. Lower profile feathers work if they are longer. It is the feather surface area which creates the drag effect to keep the arrow's **** behind its head. Also, if the bow/arrow weight goes up so must its vane area.

Q3. If you are talking about plucked primary wing (flight) feathers, yes you can split them with a razor-blade or small knife or one of these old fashioned GEM 'backed' razor blades you can still buy, but you then have to trim both sides of the quill with a pair of scissors close to the vane and scrape away most of the pith from under the quill. Cut them to shape on a template of some kind, but leave about 1cm of quill extending past both ends if you intend to bind the ends down (primitive style), as well as glue them. Otherwise cut out as normal.

Q4. If you use the flight feather, use only the wider side. Large flight feathers are preferred because of their stiffness. However, primitive peoples often used symetrical tail feathers with 2 whole feathers laid along either side of an arrow (underside facing inwards) so that they lie parallelled each other. A bit of quill was left extending past the feather at each end to be used to tie them on. It is called tangential fletching. It still worked OK but not quite as good as 3 radial vanes.

If you use the tail feathers or other symetrical feathers, you can still split them but you will find that they are not as resilient or stiff.

Definitions:
Fletching refers to the whole setup of feathers when they are on the arrow. Individual feathers intended to apply to an arrow are still correctly referred to as vanes (just like the plastic ones). To "fletch" is to apply vanes to the arrow and a fletcher is the person who makes/assembles the arrow. An arrowsmith is the metalworker who forged the metal heads.

Hope this helps.

Jackrat · #14 Post by **Jackrat** » Thu Sep 11, 2003 8:27 am

MIK, If you go to the TRAD GANG,web site you will find some good articiles on preparing feathers.
I don,t want to get off side with Dennis but I still reckon there is more to feather clearance and hand cuts than just knock hight.
When I changed left for right wing I did not change my knock point.I used to get cuts in the web of my hand, now I don,t.
Cheers,,,, Jack.

Dennis La Varenne · #15 Post by **Dennis La Varenne** » Fri Sep 12, 2003 2:42 am

Jackrat,

I am not put offside by a differing opinion. Away you go! That is what we are about here. The end result is that if it can be proven to work for many/most people rather than just for me, then the proposition is valid.

In the following, I am talking only about straight handled longbows and primitive bows.

But, in response to your proposition, no, there isn't more to it. That is all there needs to be done whether you use right or left wing and it always works irrespective of what wing feather.

Your proposition will work too, but its application relies upon having access to a varying supply of wing feathers. However, changing the wing feather, depending on handedness works, but only for that handedness because left wing vanes on a right handed bow cause the lower bow feather to rotate anti-clockwise into the arrowplate, and if you use right wing feathers on a left handed bow, they rotate clockwise so that the lower bow feather rotates inwards toward the arrowplate and away from the bowhand.

If you do not have ready access to a particlular sided wing feather, lifting the nock point will ALWAYS clear the bowhand unless you do not have a clean loose, or the bow is out of tiller where the upper limb is stiffer/faster than the lower.

MIK's other problem was that the lower bow feather was abrading his arrowshelf. That particular problem is ALWAYS caused by a nock point which is set too low or a bow with insufficient upper limb tiller, irrespective of which wing feather is used. Try it out!

I am not asking anyone to take what I say as gospel. I offer it only because I have experimented with my bows to see what result I got from moving nock points up and down by quite a lot - sometimes silly amounts just to see what happened.

I would suggest that in your case of hitting the web of your hand is the result of your hand postion on your grip in combination with a low nock point. Perhaps you have a very large hand relative to the circumference to the grip which would almost certainly put your web closer to the paradox point.

I have have a smallish hand and have jagged the web by gripping my bow more into the thenar prominence of my thumb which brings the whole hand further round to the side of the grip. I tried this kind of grip for awhile because I noticed that some of the champion oldtime longbow target archers routinely used it. But, I found it useless for bows of any real weight above 50lb because of the strain it put on my wrist. It was a poor weight bearing angle for me.

My normal grip is with the centreline of the grip belly aligning with the thenar crease of my bowhand and my knuckles aligned near the middle of the side of the grip and the middle joints of my fingers aligning with the edge of the back of the bow at the front edge of the arrow shelf.

In the case of my grip style, the thenar prominence is mostly on the thumb side of my grip.

However, I have noticed that some people do grip their bows with their knuckles further forward than mine and that more of their palm is in contact with the side of the grip, and the mid-line of the grip belly bearing against the thenar prominence. This often occurs with large hands.

The result is that this puts the web of the hand in a position where, when the arrow paradoxes away from the arrow plate and the nock point is low, then the lower bow feather can jag the webbing rather than the index knuckle. It can also occur if your grip style is slighthy high, ie that the heel of your bowhand is slightly lifted away from the grip a la some compound/recurve converts.

With my normal grip, I always jagged my knuckle when the nock point was low.

Your remedy of changing feathers will certainly work where the web of the bowhand is aligned near the place where the arrow paradoxes from the arrowplate, but if the arrow still strikes the rear outer edge of the arrowshelf, that is a low nockpoint problem or poor bow tiller more rarely.

But, anyway, its your turn now!

Jackrat · #16 Post by **Jackrat** » Fri Sep 12, 2003 6:52 am

Dennis,Thanks for the informative reply,In my statement I was of course
reffering to what has worked for me.
I hope we can get togeather for a yarn one day,I would no doubt learn more and you would probably get a laugh.
In the mean time keep up the good work.
Thanks,,Jack.

Dennis La Varenne · #17 Post by **Dennis La Varenne** » Sat Sep 13, 2003 8:55 pm

No worries Jackrat. You've got a pisser of a signature old son. I wish I had thought of it.

I don't mind people disagreeing with me at all, so long as they can put forward an alternative argument which someone else can test out to verify it. I am happy to admit I am wrong on an issue if it can be demonstrated so rather than me or anyone else getting up no their soapbox and proclaiming - This is the way it is because they say so.

If I put forward an explanation, I expect that others will go away and test it out for themselves rather than just accept it because I have said it. If it is not true - tell me - but also, tell me why, and how you tested it out.

Your remedy of changing the wing feather is a good one. However, is it fairly difficult to get left wing feathers in Oz for some reason. They are quite rare unless you can get your own from birds.

Lifting the nock point is easier, that's all.

My mate Stickbowhunter who is a kak-hander, once told me that he did not ever seem to have a problem with feathers jagging his hand. I suspect that because he used RW feathers on a kaky bow, they did the same as what yours did - rotate clockwise away from his hand upon loose.
He probably got his nock point right too which would have helped as well.

The glassed longbows he makes have 2-3 mm of tiller in the upper limb and that is the amount he advises people to have their nock points up by.

I will write something up on this site about how tiller works one day. It is something which most bow users find a bit mysterious. Because I make my own selfbows, it is something which is critical and more difficult to achieve than in a modern composite longbow or recurve.

Hooray for now.

Glenn Newell · #18 Post by **Glenn Newell** » Sat Sep 13, 2003 9:05 pm

Denis I think that the main reason that left wing feathers are rare in Australia is because most archers are right handed and in the States right handed archers shoot mainly left wing feathers. Ever since I have been in archery I have only seen right wing feathers for sale. I bought some turkey barrs from the states in 93 and I was sent all left wing feathers. I rang up and told them I wanted right wing feathers and they couldn't believe that a right handed shooter was using right wing feathers....Glenn....

MIK · #19 Post by **MIK** » Sat Sep 13, 2003 9:24 pm

OK guys its MIK the mungrel thats got heaps of questions

how many of you guys use helical clamps and how many use straight?

does one need to use a left helical for right wing and a right helical for left wing feathers ... or the other way around ... or does it matter not??

three questions in one not bad huh

i have a helical clamp that makes the arrow spin clockwise looking at the arrow from behind ... i was told this is called a right handed clamp

i can see traditional archery growing out of sight in the next couple of years ... technical side is just as much as in the sighted divisions ... but lets face it, its shooting arrows and thats the fun bit no matter what the equipment

thanks guys
MIK

Glenn Newell · #20 Post by **Glenn Newell** » Sat Sep 13, 2003 9:32 pm

When I started Mik I didn't know any different, as I said we only had right wing feathers and when I bought a fletching clamp it came with a right wing clamp. I do have a straight clamp that I use to glue left wing feathers on with and they work fine, I can also use the straight to glue right wing also it doesn't matter. When I do use the straight clamp I still offset it as much as I can...Glenn...

erron · #21 Post by **erron** » Sat Sep 13, 2003 10:15 pm

I use straight, offset like Glenn said. I haven't dished out the money for left and right yet, so I figure straight covers both options, and since I get left and right feathers, that comes in handy.

Dennis:

I will write something up on this site about how tiller works one day.

- gunna hold you to that, mate!

Erron

Jackrat · #22 Post by **Jackrat** » Sun Sep 14, 2003 10:26 am

MIK,I have an el cheapo fletching jig that can do both straight and right helical.Sorry I don,t even know what it,s called but I got it from Archery Mart when they were in south Oz.It is plastic and does all three at once.
I will try to find out what it is and let you know if I can.
I fletch all my arrow helical,Mainly for broad head arrows then if I snap the head off an the arrow is still usable I will use it for feild shooting.
Keep the Questions coming it saves me having to ask an all the answers
give me new things to think about an try out.
Cheers,, Jack.

MIK · #23 Post by **MIK** » Sun Sep 14, 2003 6:44 pm

i have a right helical as well the only reason i asked the question was because dennis said that a left feather will rotate anti clockwise and a right feather will rotate clockwise. so therefore if you are using right helical on a right wing feather then they should by theories fight each other and then your in trouble...

thats in theory and when it comes to archery you seem to be able to throw theory out the window.

be interested to try it soon... just have to get these feathers set up

i am glad you are getting value out of my questions Jack ... helping 2 of us at once ... well maybe confusing a bit sometimes ... but it all comes out in the wash

one thing with this longbow stuff ... its a lot cheaper to try things than the more technologically advanced stuff

MIK

anarcher · #24 Post by **anarcher** » Sun Nov 09, 2003 12:54 am

Jackrat:
I have one of those el cheepo thingies, it's called an Arizona Eazy Fleatch.

Mik:
You are correct, trad is much cheeper to expieriment. Primitive is even less costly, if you use only what you can find localy.

erron · #25 Post by **erron** » Sun Nov 09, 2003 8:41 am

Welcome to Ozbow, anarcher!

Yes, the simplicity of Traditional is what attracts me to it. I would also like to head more towards the Primitive as I get more experience!

Erron

doninkaliphornistan · #26 Post by **doninkaliphornistan** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 4:56 pm

it doesn't matter at all ...

however ... if you happen to own and use a bitzenberger fletching jig, you can get 4 degrees more in helical if you use left wing feathers ... (with a left clamp and nock reciever, of course)

for some reason, that's the way the jig comes from the factory ...

i'm astonished by the amount of helical i can put on the feather on a shaft with the left wing set-up ...

MIK · #27 Post by **MIK** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 6:10 pm

i have a bitzenburger fletching jig and i was going to order a left hand helical clamp but judging by the last post i will also need to get a different nock reciever

is that correct???

MIK

doninkaliphornistan · #28 Post by **doninkaliphornistan** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 2:30 am

MIK,

i have both right and left recievers for my bitzenberger jigs and i cannot tell an immediate difference, but it is recommended by the bitzenberger factory ...

it would probably take an in-depth analysis to find the difference ...

i have used the right wing reciever to flecth with left clamp and i don't remember any pronounced or obvious problem or differfences ...

heck, for the cost of the reciever, i didn't worry about it ...

geeeeeeeeeeeeee ... i wish i could give a better explanation ...

Ozbow

Feathers

Feathers

feathers

right wing? left wing?

left wing reciever for bitzenberger jig ...