Hunting arrow questions!!,

[BowmanBjorn]

Ok collective brains trust help me out.

Hi currently shoot 30inch 500spine carbon express heritages with 125 tips and they are about right but they are pretty heavy overall for my 50" longbow.

I'm looking to get a set of micro diameter shafts which way less and put a bit more weight up front for better impact. The hard part is trying to work out what to do.

I really want to keep overall weight to around 450 grains but maintain a spine of around 500.


Thoughts are:
- victory VAP with some ozcut or similar heads up front
- widowmakers (but these will be too heavy overall)

I'd love your thoughts looking for something skinny to flattened the arc and I really like the idea of the solid tool steel heads from widowmaker, ozcut etc.

Thanks in advance

[perry]

I don't have the answer your looking for. Hunting Arrows should be heavy, not light. One of the things that make an Arrow Penetrate is momentum. There are many other contributing factors to Arrow Penetration, you just cant ignore Physics as the Marketing Clap Trap would have you do today. You'll get the illusion of Accuracy and greater Range through a Faster Arrow because they Shoot flatter over Hunting Ranges but they also wash of Speed and therfore loose momentum at a given Range faster than a heavy Arrow. I'd be looking for at least another 100 - 150 grains of weight with your Arrows if you want to Hunt with them

For more details and the 13 Aspects that ensure RELIABLE Penetration through Game read Ed Ashby's report on Hunting Arrow Penetration - http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/Dr.-Ed-Ashby-W26.aspx This link is part of the Alaska Bowhunting Supply Site so just ignore the Advertising pushing their particular Broadhead. The facts remain though. The same Report is published elsewhere without the advertising blurb this link was the first that I found. I have most of the study on Disk. Its a long Read but read it and understand it

regards Jacko

[hunterguy1991]

I agree with Perry on this one mate. Stick to a heavy arrow for hunting purposes.

My Hunting and target arrows are usually 5 lb overspined with a very heavy point up front to soften them...

Colin

[stickshooter]

Goldtip Traditional shaft 500 spine 30" cut 145gn fieldtip=450gn
Want to go hunting put on a 210gn Zwickey Eskimo screw on =515gn
Want to go heavier & use the same shaft use a heavier broadhead/adaptor combination

[BowmanBjorn]

Thanks for the reply people.

Perry I don't disagree as such I'm currently shooting the heavy Carbon express heritages with 150s at the front giving me 550ish grains but they give me the ***** compared to shooting the smaller diameter arrows and lighter weights.

Maybe if I run a heavier spine bring the overall weight up with a heavy broad head to soften them a enough to shoot well and give me around 500ish.

Stick shooter I don't follow your maths on this one I can't run a correctly spined arrow with wildly varying broadhead weights and expect them all to shoot well. A 500spine arrow with 145 up front will be much stiffer than a 500spine arrow with 250+ 100 steel adaptor up front?

The biggest issue with getting good overall arrow weight for penetration while maintaining a flat ace is that I'm shooting 50#@ 30". I've browsed the ashby writings before and note heavy weight bows with monster arrows for good penetration. I guess a happy compromise is 10grains per point draw (currently shooting 11grains)

Other points of of view and ideas greatly appreciated.

[perry]

Ed ended up achieving regular exit wounds on Asiatic Water Buffalo Carcass's using a 50# Hill Style Bow and extreme FOC Arrows ! For the whole Picture you really need to read the whole report and not cherry pick like I have done in this thread. It is a big question and there really are no short cuts.

I do hear you BowmanBjorn, I settled on Arrows closer to 600 than 700 Grains for a number of reasons. The only answer is to practice with the Heavy Arrows until the Arched Trajectory is burned into your Brain.

I think your on the right track with stiffer Spined Arrows and Heavy Points. Stu Millers Spine Calculator is a great Tool and it has helped me buy the correct Carbon Arrow in the past http://www.heilakka.com/stumiller/ may be a good place to start.

regards Jacko

[BowmanBjorn]

Thanks Perry,

I started munching through the Ashby articles 1 by 1 it's going to take me a while. I did notice that 4.5% or something like that of his shots were with a 50# bow and 650+ Arrows but generally speaking the majority were with boys well over 65#.

Thanks for the spine calculator that will make my life MUCH easier for narrowing down what I need.

I'll re ivaluate as my current setup of heavy carbon shafts and a 150 grain tip put me up around the mid 500's so maybe I'll stick with that wait but redistribute it with a heavier head on a lighter shaft and smaller diameter to tick more of DR Ashby's recommendations of high FOC and small diameter shafts.

Thanks again for the help.

[stickshooter]

Goldtip Traditional shaft 500 spine 30" cut 145gn fieldtip=450gn
Want to go hunting put on a 210gn Zwickey Eskimo screw on =515gn
Want to go heavier & use the same shaft use a heavier broadhead/adaptor combination

Stick shooter I don't follow your maths on this one I can't run a correctly spined arrow with wildly varying broadhead weights and expect them all to shoot well. A 500spine arrow with 145 up front will be much stiffer than a 500spine arrow with 250+ 100 steel adaptor up front?[/quote

I don't see where I said to you use a 250 gn + 100 steel adaptor.
I said "Want to go hunting put on a 210gn Zwickey Eskimo screw on =515gn" TOTAL ARROW WEIGHT
A 500 will easily handle that & they shoot the same as the fieldpoint.

[BowmanBjorn]

Fair call stick shooter, although I have to say I'm currently shooting 500spine carbon express with 150 grain heads I've tried heavier and it significantly changes the spine and is no where near as accurate even with only and additional 50 grains.

My understanding is (and I'm happy to be proven wrong) is that head weight significantly changes dynamic spine. As a result it would be unreasonable to expect 2 arrows of the same static spine to shoot equally with significantly different weight tips and thus significantly different dynamic spines.

[stickshooter]

At hunting distances they will shoot the same.
You can use a Zwickey Eskilite with a 35gn adaptor = 145gn = 450 same as with the field tip.
Bit light for a hunting shaft but you can always dowel it to add another 160gn"s

[kimall]

I don't normally get involved with these sort of discussions as egos seem to often get in the way with someone thinking that if it works for them it must BE RIGHT. Right for one is not always right for the next guy.
First thing to get out there is that I love the highest FOC I can get on any given arrow and get good arrow flight. I shoot a 54lb and a 64lb longbow so like to keep things about 10 grains per pound total arrow weight also. All this is easy enough with the choice of carbons we have to choose from these days.(We will stay with carbons here as that is what the OP was about)
There are so many old wives tales about point weight but normally from people that will also admit they have not spent any time experimenting with high point weight because they are happy with their arrow flight. That's fine too but don't then give advice on arrow flight as an expert on the subject.(Not saying that is the case here).
I am working on a set of shafts at the moment and I will share some of my findings.
First of all if someone tells me 65 grains difference makes no change to arrow flight I would like to see how good the arrow flight is for myself. One persons great arrow flight might be terrible for the next guy as you can only compare it with the best you have ever seen and this may not be great. Also to gauge how point weight changes are effecting the arrow you need a consistent release, not easy to achieve for a extended tuning session.
Carbons do seem to except a broader point weight for any given shaft but I have found they can be very much affected by the shaft length so be careful when you start cutting.
Now back to my shafts.....
I started with full length Victory v force 300---75/90 shafts and 450 grains up front. This gives me a shaft of about 220grains and point of 450.
This set up shoots a bare shaft straight as out to 20 meters out of my 54lb long bow but if I take 50 grains off the front they fly stiff every shot. With this set up I can also shoot a 2 blade b/head bare shaft at the same distance.(Yes I said bare shaft with a b/head and yes I know the risk but work up to that distance and if done properly is no more dangerous than a field tip.) Total weight is 670 so a good hunting weight and still shoots flat enough that I don't make any mental note to shoot higher out to 20-25 yards which is about my max distance when hunting. I have tried many different things stuffed up the shafts to make them heavier and have never found anything that did not effect the way a carbon arrow feels sort of lively as it leaves the bow feeling more sluggish and much slower to recover from release.
So with this set up I decided to shorten the shafts until the same shaft would shoot from my 64lb longbow of the same design. At first cutting made little difference to the arrow flight with the arrow flying and landing tail left until I had cut about 40mm off and then small amounts made a bigger difference. This set up now also shoots sweet and I only need to fine tune them on the weekend with b/heads. So this way I can use the same tip set up which is great because there is a bit of messing about making the business end of these arrows.
The other thing I have found over the years helping people get carbons tuned here with heaps of different bow weights and designs is that the higher poundage the more exact the arrows spine needs to be and .
When all is said and done the better your release the more forgiving the setup will be but I have found that if you use as much FOC as you can the arrow will be more consistent even with some suss releases and I am yet to find a downside to high foc with heaps of benefits if the time is taken to get it right the first time.
I am no expert but this works for me and it shows that we are not bound by any rules as these 75-90 shafts shoot like on a string out of a 54lb longbow..BowmanBjorn if I can help further pm me and I will give you my number.
Cheers KIM

[BowmanBjorn]

Thanks a bunch Kim.

interesting to read your experiences.

i think i've narrowed my choices down a bit further now. i'm going to stick to atonal weight of 500grains (10gr per lb).

so as much as i wanted widow maker 350s they just won't spline out right for 500lb. so Victory VAP 350s with 250 up front should get me where i'm going will let you know how they Tune when i get them sorted.

[kimall]

The tuning is half the fun mate and as I said if you want to have a chat about it let me know.
Cheers KIM

[stickshooter]

Kimall you have made the innuendo that I made my post as an ego boost that is not true & is insulting.
It is because of that sort of post a lot of people do not reply to questions even though they know the answer that will help.
The question was how to make a 450gn 500spine arrow with which my answer was correct.
If the head weight is changed it will change the way the arrow will fly(dynamic)& will of coarse as we all know you will then have to practise with this new set up.
I sell a lot of this exact set up every month 145gn field tip & for hunting a 210gn screw on Eskimo
I'v been a Traditional Archer for 42 years,I'v been a Traditional bowhunter for 35 years,I'v been making my own arrows for 35 years,I"v been making custom arrows for Traditional bowhunters for 25 years.I started a successful Traditional Archery shop 3 years ago.
YES I DO KNOW WHAT I'M SAYING & I use or have used every set up I recommend.
If you want some advice pm me for my number,I promise not to give a EGO driven speech

[kimall]

NO mate I was not suggesting your post was ego driven my point was that there would be as many opinions as there are people that have them and people that disagree with you will often get upset if your way is different than theirs. I do however know that with the bows I have played with changing the point weight on an arrow shooting perfect by 50 grains will affect the arrow more than you can just practice to over come. Might just be the way I shoot. Anyway I don't know you and have nothing to gain by trying to offend you so this will be all from me on this.
Cheers KIM

[BowmanBjorn]

Ok sorry I didn't mean to get things revved up I was just hoping for a short cut to the right setup.....

Stick hunter I respect your experience, so I'm trying to get my head around this. Can you please explain how the dynamic spine doesn't chane much with the change from 145 to 210 grains?I've noticed significant changes in grouping at 15m with just a change form 125-145 grain field points so I'd struggle to believe that a 60grain increase wouldn't significantly change my impact zone.

I'm happy to try it if your confident it won't change but spending more money on a new set of arrows only to find there is a significant change would be both expensive and disappointing.

So always open to ideas.

Regards

Bjorn