45lb Red Ash ELB

[hunterguy1991]

Just a quick thread this one to showcase my second Self ELB made with Red Ash... Bow is (hopefully) going to be raffled at the Abbey Medieval festival to raise some funds for a small re enacting group I am affiliated with.

Bow is 75 inches nock to nock and pulls 46lbs @ 28 inches at the moment.

Brace profile.

DSCN0720 (640x480).jpg (146.42 KiB) Viewed 4414 times

Very easy to tell this one's a selfbow as the back is quite uneven but I reckon it looks cool!!

Considering heat treating the belly to make it up to 50+ pounds (maybe) but not sure... maybe on the next one

Not bad for a days work none the less.

Colin

[Nezwin]

Very easy to tell this one's a selfbow as the back is quite uneven but I reckon it looks cool!!

I believe they call it 'character'

Looking very good though, would be great to see what you could do with a length of Yew...

[hunterguy1991]

Cheers mate!!

I'm loving the "character" in this one then!!

One day mate, one day...

[greybeard]

....Bow is 75 inches nock to nock and pulls 46lbs @ 28 inches at the moment......Considering heat treating the belly to make it up to 50+ pounds (maybe) but not sure... maybe on the next one.

Colin,

The red ash bow looks good, if you want to up the poundage you could pike it to 72” or 70" n to n.

Using the old rule of thumb of double the draw length plus 20% still gives you room to move and you have the added advantage of the bow bending through the handle.

I like red ash as a bow material although my supply ran out a couple of years back.

Harvested at the right time of year, sealed and dried the bark would come off in one piece. The pattern left on the back of the stave certainly added character.

My old red ash longbow, 67” n to n and 50# @ 27” has shot a lot of arrows over years and the belly is still in pristine condition.

The biggest problem I found with red ash is that it is prone to small drying cracks appearing on the edge of the back years after the bow was made.

I wrap these cracks with Dacron serving and then coat it with superglue.

Daryl.

[Dennis La Varenne]

The biggest problem I found with red ash is that it is prone to small drying cracks appearing on the edge of the back years after the bow was made.

Daryl, I have made only a few from Red Ash, but I haven't noticed that phenomenon. The wood books call that radial checking because of surface shrinkage due to drying being faster than the interior of the stave/log/split, whatever.

However, knowing that, perhaps Red Ash is a good candidate for coating the whole underbark surface as well as the ends and forcing the drying to occur from the inside of the log. Drying that way could also induce a certain amount of reflex above what usually occurs with Red Ash. My splits always seemed to take on a goodly amount of reflex during drying.

Down in Tocumwal where I now live, and previously in Melbourne, the air is much dryer than in Queensland and we rarely get very high humidity which may also be a factor. I know Hickory responds very well to the Toc climate.

And Colin, lovely curves once again and I particularly noticed that slight flattening through the handle area. Maybe we should go on a teaching tour to the Old Dart and sort them out over there.

Do you reckon it will stand 32 inches??? It is certainly long enough.

[BowmanBjorn]

Hunterguy, Dennis,

I have to admit I've bevwr really given these early longbow and war bow styles a 2nd thought. The flat laminated glass bows is what I really like. However the last 6 threads or so both of you have been writing has got me itching to now more about these early Warbiw styles.

I feel like I'm slipping down the rabbit hole.

One question if it's ok to ask here. What is iron bark like for a bow wood? This is te stuff common throughout western NSW etc. It's seriously heavy and hard. I have good access to slow seasoned lengths of this Wood so if it's a good starting point I may pull my finger out and give this a try.

A lot more reading is in my near future I think...

[hunterguy1991]

Cheers Daryl!

I would really like to see your Red Ash bow at some point, 67 inches ntn is very impressive!! I don't think I could get one that short with my current skill level.

This one does bend through the handle some, but perhaps not as much as it could. Myself and Dennis prefer a slightly stiff handle to get the whip tiller going.

I will try to get some decent photos of this one being shot tomorrow so you can see the full draw profile on it.

Thanks Dennis, I thought you might like this one

I don't think it would go to 32 and I probably shouldn't try since it was made as a target bow and I shouldn't over stress it past 28 too much.

I tiller all of my bows to a true draw length (from the belly) and usually only go back to 30 inches since that's long enough to be shooting a 31.5 inch EWBS Standard arrow. You lose a bit of arrow length due to the thickness of the handle in the very big bows (some are 30+mm thick).

I will make a shorted version of this at some stage since ive still got plenty of ash staves here drying and it will be an interesting little experiment I reckon.

BowmanBjorn, One you make one and start shooting "In the Bowe", that's it... you cant stop after that

As far as Ironbark goes as a bow timber, if its Red ironbark its excellent for these bow.. If its Grey ironbark its not so good... BUT either way you go you need to give it a hickory or bamboo backing to stop splinters lifting.

Have a look at some of my warbow builds if you want a high draw weight, most are hickory backed Red ironbark and that's proved to be a good combo for me.

If you are looking at doing a laminate the timber choice goes way up depending on what you want to spend. Dense timbers seem to be the go as a belly wood as the rounded belly needs a high crushing strength to stop it fretting.

One of my next projects is a double American Ash and Hickory warbow which I will be aiming for 140lbs at 30 inches... Will do a build along on that one so keep and eye out for it if you are interested.

Colin

[perry]

Excellent work Colin, I hope I get to see the Bow in person. I have helped out doing Bow making demo's at the Abbey many times, with any luck will be this Year also. What group are you with ?? I am not a Reinactor, just Dress Up to get into the Spirit of the Weekend and love sharing my knowledge with and talking to the Public about Archery. I will have to keep an Eye out for you

[hunterguy1991]

Cheers Perry!!

I was planning to Pm you to see if you were attending the Abbey this year. I'm just in a small group, Order of St Knud (not my choice of name!! haha) and this will be my first crack and the re enactment game... as you say, just an excuse to get kitted up for the day

I will be displaying all of the ELB's (including this one) and warbows I have made so far on the day and hopefully do a few quick medieval fletching demos... maybe even tiller another ash bow through the day, depends how caught up I get talking to people I suppose.

Would be cool to catch up and talk archery and bow making with you tho!

Colin

[Dennis La Varenne]

BowmanBjorn,

We have a species called Red Ironbark (Eucalyptus sideroxylon) down our way in Southern NSW and Victoria. I have used a good bit of it and it works fine. Yeoman on this site has made many more bows from it than I have but usually backed with Bamboo and he recommends it. It has an ADD of around 1120kg/m^3.

I am not sure which specie of Ironbark you have up your way, but if it is Grey Ironbark (Eucalyptus paniculata), that too is a proven bow wood and around the same ADD as Red Ironbark at 1130 kg/m^3.

Red Ironbark makes a fair bow with the underbark surface as the back of the bow and has a very high Modulus of Rupture, so it takes compression well, and being so dense, a bow of a given weight will be a good bit smaller than most other woods of average density in the 600 - 800 kg/m^3 range.

[hunterguy1991]

Well I said I would get some draw shots for you guys but I was a little slack getting the horns on.

Glued them on yesterday and shaped them up this morning so here are some more pics of this little beauty.

Full draw.

DSCN0736 (480x640).jpg (155.95 KiB) Viewed 4324 times

Bit of side nock action!! These are only rough filed and then sanded with 240... have to go up the grits a bit further yet.

DSCN0737 (640x480).jpg (181.89 KiB) Viewed 4324 times

These are the first side nocks I've done in horn (acetal plastic) but I like the look of them! Bit odd having them in opposite sides of the bow but I think i'll get used to it.

So far with the 20 or so arrows I've shot through this bow it has not taken much set and is still very "springy" to un-brace, which I hope is a good sign!!

Let me know what you guys think.

Colin

[bigbob]

full draw looks good, nice bow Colin.

[greybeard]

Colin,

The side nocks look quite good; I have found that trying to get a pleasing transition from the limb into the nocks is not as easy as one would think.

....I would really like to see your Red Ash bow at some point, 67 inches ntn is very impressive!! I don't think I could get one that short with my current skill level.

I believe your bowyer skills are at a level where making shorter bows would not be an issue.

Knowing the limit of the timbers mechanical properties is probably the most difficult part of the process but unless you push the timber to its limits you will never know.

As you have found out there is a lesson in every broken bow. Experimentation is not for the feint hearted; over building bows for safety i.e. extra long inevitably results in a sluggish under performing bow.

Having said that we must remember that the bows overall design will be dependant upon the selection of timber, draw length and desired poundage.

You will notice that the bows tiller in the second photograph looks a bit off but the limb timing is in sync. Symmetry takes a bit of a back seat when it comes to self bows fashioned from bush billets.

Red Ash Bow_ Unbraced.JPG (39.84 KiB) Viewed 4318 times

Red Ash Bow_Braced.JPG (56.47 KiB) Viewed 4318 times

The bow is rigid through the handle as it was spliced from a 40 inch billet. [brace height needs lowering]

As mentioned before the belly is in perfect condition.

Daryl.

[Dennis La Varenne]

Colin,

Daryl is right. That little bow could easily stand another 4 inches of draw from that bow, OR you could shorten it 2 inches at each end without a problem. You look to be drawing only 27 inches in that picture. On the bendy handle ELB styled bow, I work at a minimum length of 2.5x draw length, so a 70 inch bow would be quite safe especially if after shortening, it was further sunk to 45lbs again. But, the horns are on now which makes the above a bit hard.

If you were to shorten it, the draw weight would increase of course, but if you do the usual Jim Hamm method of sinking it, you will not stress the bow any more than now and it won't develop any more set than it may have now. After shortening, you don't rebend it on your tiller past its present 45lbs until it reaches intended full draw again. Obviously, you don't just shorten it and full draw it again unless you want it to have a higher draw weight. But if you DO full draw it at the higher draw weight, and sink it afterward, it will definitely be more sluggish because it will have been overstressed and the belly will have the compressed fibres of a higher weight bow which is being drawn to a lower draw weight.

I do like the look of the smaller horn which I think would be more in keeping with horns made for military purposes. I am sure there would have been variations in styling by individual makers, but essentially, working to maximise profit from a government military contract and making the most economic use of available resources coupled with the sheer practicality of horns less liable to breakage makes a lot of sense to me.

I try to put myself in the position of a contract bowyer making a living from bowyery and looking at the issues surrounding mass production of bows from the aspect of efficient use of resources to maximise profit.

I cannot see that such a bowyer would bother with the time spent on Victorian style horns when I was being paid a set price per bow by the government of the day. I would be doing the least amount of work using the minimum of resources to meet the specs to qualify for payment . . . if all that sounds at all reasonable.

In your pic above, your little horns look very much to me like those depicted in so many of those mediaeval pictures we see of massed English archers where the horns on their bows look little more than dark tips on the ends of their bows. So, I think you have it spot on in styling and size. And . . . I am very pleased with how much the acetal looks like horn.

[hunterguy1991]

Thanks Daryl!

looking at the full draw shot now I could definitely shorten it some for the next one I do. However I'm trying to keep the draw to full within the Elastic range of the stress strain curve, thus minimizing set. I think I have achieved that because of how springy it is during bracing and un-bracing as I mentioned.

because the ash is a relatively soft timber I think minimizing set is key to a good performing bow.

Dennis, I still have plenty of as there so I will go shorter on the next one I make like this. I think these could be pretty popular at the Abbey festival of with re enactors. It is good to know that I can go shorter if the stave suits a shorter bow because of knots it imperfections.

As far as the horn nocks go, I tried to keep them small and hence light since its not a brute if a bow. Small nocks aren't really the best for decoration as there isn't much room. Also the side nocks tend to cut (no pun intended) into the very middle of the horn which is also tricky for doing decoration.

This was meant to be a representation of the 'commoners' bow so I kept it pretty simple.

I will definitely be making myself one at around 60lbs for my re enacting shoots.

Colin