Red Sal Wood (Shorea robusta) for Bows

Where to source materials etc. Also the place to show off your new bow or quiver etc.... Making things belongs in Traditional Crafts.

Moderator: Moderators

Message
Author
Preston
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:54 am

Re: Red Sal Wood (Shorea robusta) for Bows

#31 Post by Preston » Sat Mar 07, 2015 8:23 pm

Ok so I'll go with that thickness (~6.89mm), at the max width of the Padauk Board that I have(58mm) it should give me about a 35Lb Bow...which is less than I wanted... :(

Wish I could read that book I have heard it mentioned quite alot...Its too expensive for me at the moment maybe in the future...or if there is another edition...probably not:(

I was testing the Acacia wood but its a bit green.... I'm drying it in the car, i'll give it a few days then let's see.


correct me if I'm wrong...
In a Pyramid bow the limb bends equally along its radius so an even thickness is required but in for example a flatbow it should taper from the fades to the nock, in this case I think that the thickness can be more than the setpoint thickness to start off with since it will be elliptically tillered so the wood near the fades doesn't bend as much as at the center of the limb, But at about 1/2 the way from the fades towards the nocks the thickness should be at setpoint thickness and continue to taper from there to the tips for a nice arc....

Preston
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:54 am

Re: Red Sal Wood (Shorea robusta) for Bows

#32 Post by Preston » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:26 am

After thinking about this a little more I realize that rather than guessing the starting thickness and where should the setpoint thickness be etc, if I can calculate/Measure the radius of bend along the limb at different points for any type of tiller shape required for the limb width-taper/shape...then its easy to calculate the required thickness for whatever Bending Stress we need.. so that at no point in the limb the wood is stressed beyond the setpoint... or whatever bending stress we choose!!!! but this is for a rectangular cross-section limb shape only...to change the crossection shape and find values for that type...the original calculations for limb thickness has to be changed particularly the MOI(using maths in making bows).......the whole thing can quickly become quite complicated, but its very interesting.....
see this link...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ar ... of_inertia

I think the way to go will be to treat every point along the limb for which we want the width/Depth as a seperate calculation
because MOI and RADIUS of bend will be different......and by neatly tapering between points it will be the same as interpolating the values required between points!!!! to get a smooth cross-section profile along the limb.

User avatar
Nezwin
Posts: 249
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:38 pm
Location: Temora, NSW

Re: Red Sal Wood (Shorea robusta) for Bows

#33 Post by Nezwin » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:50 am

If this is your first, or one of your first bows, I wouldn't over-think it. There are a lot of people here who don't use maths in bows and get superb results regardless - it's more of an art than a science.

My advice is to take your board, select which side is going to be the back, treat that as you deem necessary (sealing might provide a factor of safety or it may be that it is fine unbacked), then cut your shape. You can work out the details of tillering when the bow is on the tillering stick and you can see the limbs beginning to bend. A pyramid bow design would help here as they require minimal tillering compared to other limb profiles.

There's an old saying where I come from - Keep It Simple, Stupid. Basically, don't over-complicate things, especially when you're learning! Once you get a bow or two finished and you've got a feel for it, then you can't start trying to understand what is happening at a mathematical level, then you can start to make improvements based on that. But to start, I would just follow some instructions and get the wood bending.

Preston
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:54 am

Re: Red Sal Wood (Shorea robusta) for Bows

#34 Post by Preston » Mon Mar 09, 2015 2:16 pm

You got me laughing really hard, yes that's right KISS is a good practice if it works....I did try to make a bow with redsal and the belly chrysaled very badly maybe due to my impatience to get it bending...
I love maths that's my weakness :ugeek: ....
I'll start working on that Acacia wood board that I bought since it cost very little and keep the padauk for later when I have more experience...
But I have one question... How do I know that the wood can be made into a say 40-45LB bow which I want...The width I can't choose as its already been cut to 38mm, the depth is 19mm and the length is 69 inches, if I just shape the front profile to a shape that I like and thin the limbs down till it is floor tillered....and check the weight at that point will that be the weight of the bow I have to settle with then? and continue tillering it till drawlength is reached....is that how its done?

User avatar
greybeard
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 2992
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:11 am
Location: Logan City QLD

Re: Red Sal Wood (Shorea robusta) for Bows

#35 Post by greybeard » Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:50 pm

Nezwin wrote:....I wouldn't over-think it. There are a lot of people here who don't use maths in bows and get superb results regardless - it's more of an art than a science..
Preston wrote:But I have one question... How do I know that the wood can be made into a say 40-45LB bow which I want...The width I can't choose as its already been cut to 38mm, the depth is 19mm and the length is 69 inches, if I just shape the front profile to a shape that I like and thin the limbs down till it is floor tillered....and check the weight at that point will that be the weight of the bow I have to settle with then? and continue tillering it till drawlength is reached....is that how its done?
Preston, I apologize if this reply appears to be a little abrupt but I wanted to stick to the basics.

Maybe I learnt the hard way but making and sometimes breaking bows taught me more than I could have ever learnt by trying to understand the maths involved.

For the moment forget about the maths as it will be your undoing and instead use your powers of logic and reasoning.

Logic tells you what the maximum dimensions of the bow can be from that particular piece of timber.

Forget about draw weight for the moment because there are more important lessons to be learnt i.e. how to tiller a bow.

You need a design to fit your timber; the following plan may be useful. You may have to lose ½” to ¾” of length in each limb to fit your board. [Please note that the fadeouts shown in the diagram are poor and need to have a more gentle transition into the limbs.]
Flat Bow.jpg
Flat Bow.jpg (42.55 KiB) Viewed 6563 times
Once the plan of the bow is cut you can start to taper the limbs to obtain the tiller.

I strongly recommend that you make up a tiller board and tillering string [with pockets so you don’t have to file the string grooves in the early stages.]

The timber species will dictate more to the bows draw weight rather than its design.

In this instance if the bow is overweight remove more wood from the belly; if underweight you can laminate a thin strip of wood to the back of the bow or make a new bow to a modified plan and/or timber.

And most important of all do not draw the bow past its intended finished draw weight.

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

Preston
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:54 am

Re: Red Sal Wood (Shorea robusta) for Bows

#36 Post by Preston » Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:30 pm

I drew out a plan similar to the pic you posted and I'm going to go with that. And yes as for the drawweight its better for me to be able to tiller a bow first before worrying about drawweight which can come later after I have more experience, Tillering to full draw is a challenge by itself without having to worrying about DW....
but it would be nice to know at which point I can know what weight a stave/board will out to be. It will help in the tillering process atleast so that I don't exceed DW while tillering thus overstraining the bow. does that make any sense!!!?

User avatar
greybeard
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 2992
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:11 am
Location: Logan City QLD

Re: Red Sal Wood (Shorea robusta) for Bows

#37 Post by greybeard » Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:25 pm

Preston wrote:....but it would be nice to know at which point I can know what weight a stave/board will out to be. It will help in the tillering process atleast so that I don't exceed DW while tillering thus overstraining the bow. does that make any sense!!!?
Buy a spring scale so you can verify the draw weight of the bow as you work it.

Firstly you need to make a bow that is well tillered and can be repeatedly drawn to the required draw length without failing.

Once you achieve this goal you can start recording all the relevant dimensions of the bow in question.

The following was authored by Dennis La Varenne and appeared in; http://www.ozbow.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=15392

"Further to rule 2 in my post above about the cubed relationship of thickness to draw weight.

The following picture is an approximate illustration of how it works. There is a set of mathematical equations about it and the relationship is not as linear as this diagram supposes, but it is a useful working diagram using a 20lb bow as the exampled bow. So you can see that for every 14% of increased thickness or reduction, your bow's draw weight will either double or halve."
thickness-draw%20weight%20ratio%20for%2020lb%20bow.jpg
thickness-draw%20weight%20ratio%20for%2020lb%20bow.jpg (62.6 KiB) Viewed 6556 times
"The principle being that you do not have to take much off or leave more on to get a significant change in draw weight. For instance, if your 20lb bow was 1/2 inch (0.500") thick at mid limb, then 14.28% of that is 0.714" which is close to 1.8mm to double this bow's draw weight from 20lbs to 40lbs or bring it back to 10lbs if removed."

There is no magic wand to resolve your issues, make the bow and learn from the experience.

Daryl.
Last edited by greybeard on Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

Preston
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:54 am

Re: Red Sal Wood (Shorea robusta) for Bows

#38 Post by Preston » Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:18 am

Thanks for all the info...I got a tillering stick made some time back and I also bought a weight scale so I guess I'm good to go...
I already started on the bow and cut out the shape I just need to thin it down some more to get it bending.....
I'll post some pics when I get it floor tillered...Do you think after floor tillering I can put on a backing strip or before?

User avatar
greybeard
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 2992
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:11 am
Location: Logan City QLD

Re: Red Sal Wood (Shorea robusta) for Bows

#39 Post by greybeard » Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:05 am

greybeard wrote:......if underweight you can laminate a thin strip of wood to the back of the bow.....
Preston wrote:.....Do you think after floor tillering I can put on a backing strip or before?
My suggestion regarding laminating a thin strip to the back of the bow was only if the bow was under weight after tillering and reaching full draw.

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

User avatar
Nezwin
Posts: 249
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:38 pm
Location: Temora, NSW

Re: Red Sal Wood (Shorea robusta) for Bows

#40 Post by Nezwin » Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:14 am

Greybeard has sound advice in this matter, so I'd follow everything he's suggesting. Your tillering stick/tree & spring scale will serve you well in tillering.
Preston wrote:The width I can't choose as its already been cut to 38mm, the depth is 19mm and the length is 69 inches
As a guide, I would leave the bow at 69" length (the longer the limbs, the less concentrated the force acting on them & the better your string angle at full draw, assuming a straight limb bow. Tim Baker discusses this in the Bowyer Bibles) and 38mm/1.5" width.

A wider limb spreads the compression loading on the limb across a wider area, so the weaker a material is, the wider the limb needs to be. 1.5" is a fairly standard limb width but it would seem you would benefit from an additional 0.25" width as a factor of safety. You don't have that option, so be careful as you tiller. The point to take home here is that compression or tension failures for a straight-limbed bow of a given, uniform material are a function of the limb width and the working limb length, assuming workmanship/finishing is up to an appropriate standard.

Personally, I'd take a string and mark the centreline along the length of the board. Then I would find centre, and mark this. I like rigid handle bows, so I would mark 2" either side of centre (Part A - the handle), then 6" either side of centre (Part B - the fade). From the 2" mark to the 6" mark I would taper the board depth from 19mm to 1/2". I would then continue that 1/2" depth for the length of the limb. This will provide you with a 4" handle on a 12" riser with 27" working limbs (assuming 1.5" nocks). A 27" working limb is fairly generous, longer would be better though, for safety. (Edit: I tend to overbuild risers, so you could make the riser much shorter and allow for a longer working limb, say, 2" handle section with 3" fades would provide an additional 2" working limb length).

Then I would cut the profile, that is, the pyramid limb shape. At 6" from centre (the end of the fade) you want the limb full width (1.5"), tapering linearly to 1/2" at the nocks. Always, always, always cut outside the line and then sand/file/rasp to it. From there, I'd measure 1" in from either tip & cut shallow nocks. You can glue nocks on before this or if you're in a rush, shallow nocks on the board will suffice. Using a long string, begin flexing the limbs an inch or so on the tillering stick/tree. 1/2" thickness will probably create a bow that is overweight (I know it would for Spotted Gum, at least, although your timber is somewhat less dense), so you can start balancing the limb bend with only a few inch draw. As you draw further on the tillering tree, you reduce weight. For instance, you want a 50lb bow, so draw a few inches and thin the limbs where/if required to ensure they bend evenly. Once the limbs are bending equally in a smooth arc, draw to 50lb. If this is at 26", or 14", or 5" or anywhere in between, reduce the limb depth a little and retest it on the tillering tree. When you next hit 50lb you'll be closer to your 28" goal. Although I would leave it at 50lb @ 26" or 27" as this allows for the bow to take a little set and still be in the 50lb range at 28" draw.

That's a pretty easy, straightforward, step-by-step guide there. Don't try anything fancy and just keep it simple.

Preston
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:54 am

Re: Red Sal Wood (Shorea robusta) for Bows

#41 Post by Preston » Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:59 pm

Here is the bow....
Acacia01 11-Mar-2015 _Braced.JPG
Acacia01 11-Mar-2015 _Braced.JPG (219.46 KiB) Viewed 6534 times
I got to shape the handle area and shape the nocks properly and fine sandpaper it then put on some finish for waterproofing etc....its 68" ntn draws 30LB at 28" in the pic its drawn to 27" braced to 5"...I'm so happy I didn't care what weight it was coming out to just to try and tiller it as good as I could was my aim. I Kept it braced for about an Hour during which time i took the photos....immediately after unstringing it the set was just 1-3/4"
Acacia01 11-Mar-2015 _Draw27.JPG
Acacia01 11-Mar-2015 _Draw27.JPG (204.24 KiB) Viewed 6534 times

User avatar
greybeard
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 2992
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:11 am
Location: Logan City QLD

Re: Red Sal Wood (Shorea robusta) for Bows

#42 Post by greybeard » Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:34 pm

Preston,

Is it the angle of the photograph or has the limb on the left hand side got a twist in it? There appears to be a little twist at brace height and it increases at full draw.

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

hunterguy1991
Posts: 859
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:18 am
Location: Woodford Queensland

Re: Red Sal Wood (Shorea robusta) for Bows

#43 Post by hunterguy1991 » Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:46 pm

Definitely looks to be a little twisted in the mid limb area on that left limb to me...

Id suggest pinning your tiller up against the wall for these photos as the shadows play havoc with whats going on...

Definitely a good start tho mate, well done!

Preston
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:54 am

Re: Red Sal Wood (Shorea robusta) for Bows

#44 Post by Preston » Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:30 pm

It does have a slight twist in that limb but in the photo it looks more severe than it actually is.... is it better to try and correct it?...

User avatar
perry
Posts: 1925
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:59 pm
Location: morayfield qld australia

Re: Red Sal Wood (Shorea robusta) for Bows

#45 Post by perry » Thu Mar 12, 2015 6:48 am

If its a Twist that was present in the Stave before you started Chipping away, no leave it alone. If the Stave was straight and the Twist developed during Tillering it may be that the low Side is slightly thicker than the high Side. Could be as simple as String Grooves cut unevenly also.

Top effort, looks good

regards Jacko
"To my deep morticication my father once said to me, 'You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family.' "

- Charles Darwin

Preston
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:54 am

Re: Red Sal Wood (Shorea robusta) for Bows

#46 Post by Preston » Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:55 pm

The stave was not twisted...So it must have twisted due to the thickness taper not being done properly, however its not as much as it looks in the photo........is it neccessary to correct it?...if I do will I end up reducing the drawweight?....

Preston
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:54 am

Re: Red Sal Wood (Shorea robusta) for Bows

#47 Post by Preston » Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:33 am

I finished the bow and the handle area I reduced to a comfortable width, and for thickness I added a piece of wood on the belly...and wrapped the whole thing in leather...It shoots a 395 grain arrow 110 yards....the twist is not so much so I decided to leave it alone...I ordered some Dracon B50 String when I get it I'll test it again because now I'm using some kind of strong nylon string that stretches a lot........it's 30Lbs even after shooting it many times with heavy arrows. Thanks for all your comments and helpful suggestions...

Preston
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:54 am

Re: Red Sal Wood (Shorea robusta) for Bows

#48 Post by Preston » Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:17 pm

some final pics...my acacia board bow mostly sap wood....
DSCN0373 web.JPG
DSCN0373 web.JPG (149.95 KiB) Viewed 6505 times
DSCN0374 web.JPG
DSCN0374 web.JPG (145.04 KiB) Viewed 6505 times
DSCN0375 web.JPG
DSCN0375 web.JPG (139.5 KiB) Viewed 6505 times
my next bow wiil be out of the heart wood I think that will give me more poundage than the sap wood......let's see.

User avatar
perry
Posts: 1925
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:59 pm
Location: morayfield qld australia

Re: Red Sal Wood (Shorea robusta) for Bows

#49 Post by perry » Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:49 pm

Top result Preston, good on ya !
"To my deep morticication my father once said to me, 'You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family.' "

- Charles Darwin

Preston
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:54 am

Re: Red Sal Wood (Shorea robusta) for Bows

#50 Post by Preston » Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:49 pm

Thanks Perry I really appreciate your comments and your helpful suggestions....

User avatar
Nezwin
Posts: 249
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:38 pm
Location: Temora, NSW

Re: Red Sal Wood (Shorea robusta) for Bows

#51 Post by Nezwin » Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:59 am

Not bad at all! Good effort, especially for such an early attempt. It's an addictive hobby though, so be careful :biggrin:

Preston
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:54 am

Re: Red Sal Wood (Shorea robusta) for Bows

#52 Post by Preston » Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:17 pm

I'm already thinking about making a wider bow of the same wood to get a 40# bow!!! :D

Preston
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:54 am

Re: Red Sal Wood (Shorea robusta) for Bows

#53 Post by Preston » Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:21 pm

I succeeded in making a 35LB and a 50LB bow after being so busy making bows I realized that without arrows a bow is just a bent stick!! I'm going back to work and will be back after 4 weeks I plan to work on making arrows next.......and try to match the arrows to the 50LB bow and to start practicing with it... The 50LB bow was not that hard to pull I always thought it would be difficult....I am also able to pull it without finger tabs another thing that I thought I would need.....

I was thinking about buying a veritas dowel maker for arrows but the cost is too high for me at the moment.....maybe later if I do not succeed in making my own dowel cutter....

Thanks guys for all your help and feedback....

User avatar
greybeard
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 2992
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:11 am
Location: Logan City QLD

Re: Red Sal Wood (Shorea robusta) for Bows

#54 Post by greybeard » Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:57 pm

Preston wrote:I succeeded in making a 35LB and a 50LB bow.....
Well done Preston, can you post some photos of the new bows?

Are you keeping detailed records of the bows statistics for future reference?
Preston wrote:....I am also able to pull it without finger tabs another thing that I thought I would need.....
Over time you can cause damage to the nerve endings in the finger tips, I strongly recommend purcasing a tab or glove.

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

Preston
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:54 am

Re: Red Sal Wood (Shorea robusta) for Bows

#55 Post by Preston » Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:53 pm

I didn't know that nerve endings could be damaged!!!! I will make and use the tabs as you suggested...
attached some photos of the 50# Pyramid Bow....Alas the 35# lifted a splinter on the back after I tried recurving the tips and stringing it.....nice lesson learned I think....
DSCN0521 web.JPG
DSCN0521 web.JPG (90.2 KiB) Viewed 6463 times
DSCN0522 web.JPG
DSCN0522 web.JPG (90.81 KiB) Viewed 6463 times
DSCN0523 web.JPG
DSCN0523 web.JPG (146.69 KiB) Viewed 6463 times

Post Reply