That Question again....

[BowmanBjorn]

So

after the Tully trad shoot on the weekend i've got the urge to add another trad bow to the rack the hard question is what?
- recurve?
- Deflex/reflex Bow?
- longbow?


I'm currently very happily shooting a cocobolo riser Thunderstick MOAB D/R 62" 50# @ 30". (which i will never sell because she's my 1st trad bow and so smooth it border lines wrong)

after seeing some lovely recurves at the shoot i'm leaning towards a nice curve to add to the quiver.

question is....

if money didn't enter the equation what would you buy recurve/ ReflexDeflex, Long bow?

requirements:
- Trad (of course)
- minimal hand shock
- smooth draw
- fast
- reliable shooter

i know its an open ended answer but i'd like to get the opinions of more knowledgable people on what you consider to be THE best specimens in their fields.

on a side note i haven't shot any High end recurves or D shaped longbows so if someone could give me an opinion on how a D/R stacks up against these that would be great.

[Mick Smith]

These are basically a D shaped longbow, although they do have some deflex reflex. They're a popular bow with many trad shoot competitors. I would certainly consider one myself .... http://www.3riversarchery.com/Great+Pla ... eitem.html

This one is definitely a deflex reflex bow. A lot of top archers swear by these bows. I think they look great. It's another that I would consider ... http://www.3riversarchery.com/Tomahawk+ ... eitem.html

This is an out and out D shaped longbow. It ranks quite highly on my list of what's desirable. In fact, you wouldn't go wrong with any bow from here. I own 2 Whips and they really perform. I would like a classic D though ... http://montanabows.blogspot.com.au/p/on ... signs.html

In a recurve now. This one has been receiving rave reviews and it has that classic look about it. And it's a Bear. I've seen them with clear glass, which I prefer.... http://www.beararcheryproducts.com/bows ... nal/kodiak

Also in a recurve. This is a bow that I've always admired. Apparently they shoot as good as they look too. They're a bit on the expensive side, but what the heck. I will own one, one day ... https://blackwidowbows.com/index.php?ro ... uct_id=102

The above bows are just ones that I happen to like. My pet hate in any bow is an unnecessarily heavy and overbuilt riser, but that's just me. I'm confident that all of the above bows would be great performers. There's heaps and heaps of bows out there and we all have different tastes. Buying a bow is a very personal experience, so probably the best advice would be to just go with whatever you happen to like.

In my experience, a typical D shaped longbow won't perform quite as efficiently as a typical deflex reflex bow, but a good straight limbed longbow is a delight to shoot and they can perform very well indeed. Recurves will generally perform very well. They're usually very fast. However they're not as forgiving of small human errors as what longbows are generally and this is due to the different shapes of the limbs in cross section, ie, recurve limbs can be twisted slightly out of alignment fairly easily when you torque the bow, causing the shot to go off course. Whereas longbow limbs won't twist easily even when you torque them to the max. If you have good form and you can put up with the extra noise, recurves are a good choice.

One other point to consider is the overall length of your new bow. I love short bows probably more than anyone I know, but I also know that they're not the best choice unless you have a specific need for one. A longer bow will nearly always outshoot a shorter one.

[GrahameA]

Hi Mick.

Off Topic reply ----- Re: That Question again....

... My pet hate in any bow is an unnecessarily heavy and overbuilt riser...

Bows with what appears to be an unnecessarily heavy and overbuilt riser are either poorly designed or built that way for a reason, The bow in my avatar has what appears to be heavy and overbuilt riser however it is built that way for a purpose.

[Mick Smith]

Hi Grahame.

Hi Mick.

Off Topic reply ----- Re: That Question again....

... My pet hate in any bow is an unnecessarily heavy and overbuilt riser...

Bows with what appears to be an unnecessarily heavy and overbuilt riser are either poorly designed or built that way for a reason, The bow in my avatar has what appears to be heavy and overbuilt riser however it is built that way for a purpose.

Yes, I totally agree. A heavy riser will add significant weight to the bow and weight will make it more stable to hold steady. The added weight tends to dampen many vibrations upon release too. Often, bows with large risers are designed that way to give the bow some added length, which then allows the use of shorter, more effective, faster limbs, without making the bow too short overall. They can also be a good base to hang stuff off, stuff like stabilisers and sights, etc.

I can fully appreciate why some bows have bulky risers, but that still doesn't mean to say I have to like them.

[Jim]

That is such a horrible question to ask. Honestly the two recurves that have stood out to me recently have been pretty much any Flatliner ... Rob keeps putting up photos of the most ridiculously gorgeous recurves... and a Blackwidow-esque recurve that ze Germans at Bearpaw Archery have been producing:
https://shop.bearpaw-products.com/Websh ... ctedPage=1

But I am about to receive a sweet little d/r longbow from the states.. I'll let you know how it goes

Jim

[Mick Smith]

That is such a horrible question to ask. Honestly the two recurves that have stood out to me recently have been pretty much any Flatliner ... Rob keeps putting up photos of the most ridiculously gorgeous recurves... and a Blackwidow-esque recurve that ze Germans at Bearpaw Archery have been producing:
https://shop.bearpaw-products.com/Websh ... ctedPage=1

But I am about to receive a sweet little d/r longbow from the states.. I'll let you know how it goes

Jim

Yes Jim, the Flatliner, one piece recurve in particular is pure magic. I forgot about that one. It's Australian made too ... http://www.ozbow.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15023

I'm not so keen on the Bearpaw, (Black Widow lookalike) though, with it's massive riser, but some people like that sort of thing.

[greybeard]

There are a lot of bows out there being passed off as longbows by the manufacturer.

I believe the following criteria authored by Dennis La Varenne describes the longbow in such a manner that alleviates confusion.

1. Long relative to its user (at least shoulder height)
2. May be made from any kind of material
3. May be of any cross-section (flat, D-section, oval, round, etc.)
4. Limbs must curve only toward the belly when braced (a straight-edge must touch at only one place between handle and nock).
5. When the bow is braced the string must not touch the bow anywhere along the limb except at the nocks.
6. The long axis of the handle must be vertical and in line the long axis of the bow.
7. All sides of the handle must be within 2mm of being parallel to its opposite (straight handled).

Daryl.

[Jim]

But I am about to receive a sweet little d/r longbow from the states.. I'll let you know how it goes

I meant short bow

Another thought regarding the original post is the recommendation of one of the best instinctive archers I've ever seen, Jeff Kavanagh. He's often said the Bear Grizzly is one of his favourites. Pretty big call for an old classic. Beautiful and classic lines as well.

[Jim]

I'm not so keen on the Bearpaw, (Black Widow lookalike) though, with it's massive riser, but some people like that sort of thing.

Mick, I've never liked them either, but after seeing some of ze Germans, which seem a little simpler and natural looking than the widows I've seen, they're growing on me.

[BowmanBjorn]

thanks guys,

i know its a huge question and all personal preference.

the shortlist at the moment are:

D/R bow (notice i'm not calling it a longbow)
- Centaur triple carbon elite
- norseman
- border

Recurve
- Huntsman
- Flatliner

i've shot a nice blackwidow curve that was lightning quick but i'm not a fan of the riser design (purely euthenics because it was an absolute weapon).

i'm not really looking for an off the shelf factory bow like the bears (even though i have a soft spot for bear products).

i'm happy to spend the money on the right bow i'm just struggling to find who are truly the elite bowyers of the world.

thanks again for the points of view.

[GrahameA]

Morning All.

... i'm just struggling to find who are truly the elite bowyers of the world. ...

And that becomes harder as you discover more bows/manufacturers and consider what criteria makes a bow.

What is more important form or function? What is the bow going to be used for? There is an issue in that can you try an exanple of the bow? Is a bow better because it has performed well in some competitive arena or because it has a better publicity?

At least with some of the bigger names you have some chance of trying one out.

[Stickbow Hunter]

D/R bow (notice i'm not calling it a longbow)

Neither are you naming any other type of bow mate. D/R is not a type of bow but a limb design!!!

Jeff

[BowmanBjorn]

D/R bow (notice i'm not calling it a longbow)

Neither are you naming any other type of bow mate. D/R is not a type of bow but a limb design!!!

Jeff

so what do we call a bow with D/R limbs other than a D/R bow?

[Stickbow Hunter]

so what do we call a bow with D/R limbs other than a D/R bow?

Bjorn, You call it by its proper name depending on what type of bow it is. To save repeating myself have a read of my post down the page a bit in this thread which should help clear things up for you.
http://www.ozbow.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.p ... 7&start=60

Jeff

[toby]

If money was not a problem Schafer Silvertip, Morrison or a Huntsman if you were ever lucky enough to get Mark to make you one.

[kerry]

blacktail bows one of the snakebit series recurves http://www.blacktailbows.com/store/p...LABLE_NOW.html

[Jim]

so what do we call a bow with D/R limbs other than a D/R bow?

Bjorn, You call it by its proper name depending on what type of bow it is. To save repeating myself have a read of my post down the page a bit in this thread which should help clear things up for you.
http://www.ozbow.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.p ... 7&start=60

Jeff

Jeff, this is from the Ozbow Glossary:

semi-recurve - also known as the deflex-reflex design...

[Stickbow Hunter]

Jeff, this is from the Ozbow Glossary:

semi-recurve - also known as the deflex-reflex design...

Jim, Notice it says 'design' and not bow. Deflex/reflex alway refers to limb design and not a bow type as I have explained via the link above.

I'm actually glad you pointed that out as it is a bit confusing so we will look at rewording that to make things clearer. We have already done a lot more work on the glossary and an expanded version will be placed up on the site in the near future.

Jeff

[Mick Smith]

Jeff, this is from the Ozbow Glossary:

semi-recurve - also known as the deflex-reflex design...

Jim, Notice it says 'design' and not bow. Deflex/reflex alway refers to limb design and not a bow type as I have explained via the link above.

I'm actually glad you pointed that out as it is a bit confusing so we will look at rewording that to make things clearer. We have already done a lot more work on the glossary and an expanded version will be placed up on the site in the near future.

Jeff

It's a bit weird I reckon. We have a deflex-reflex design, which is not a bow, yet we have a recurve, which is a bow, yet both terms are simply describing the differing limb designs. It's a pity that a standard method of distinguishing and describing bows was never fully developed. One that uses the same terms and references, rather than the confusing system we now have.

[Stickbow Hunter]

It's a bit weird I reckon. We have a deflex-reflex design, which is not a bow, yet we have a recurve, which is a bow, yet both terms are simply describing the differing limb designs. It's a pity that a standard method of distinguishing and describing bows was never fully developed. One that uses the same terms and references, rather than the confusing system we now have.

IMO what you say is incorrect Mick.

Semi-recurve, recurve, longbow etc are types of bows.

Flat laid, reflex, deflex/reflex etc describes limb designs used in the making of various bows.

Jeff

[Mick Smith]

Semi-recurve, recurve, longbow etc are types of bows.

Flat laid, reflex, deflex/reflex etc describes limb designs used in the making of various bows.

Jeff

I don't dispute what you have said above Jeff. I don't believe that I actually said anything that was incorrect. I'm merely saying that it's a pity that a standard method of describing bows hasn't been formulated.

So, we have semi-recurve and recurve. that's fair enough as it describes the shape/design of the limbs. Then we have 'longbow' which doesn't describe anything other than giving the overall impression of length. You can't deny that these two terms have little in common when it comes to the actual description of the bow.

It is what it is, but if you can put that aside temporarily and reconsider it from a new perspective, surely you must agree that it could have been a much better system. A system that's easier to understand. A system that is uniform in the way it applies to the bow's design.

I'm not saying that it should be changed, as that's a part of our rich history. I'm just pointing out that it could have been more descriptive and easier to understand, that's all. You can agree or disagree, however this is what I feel.

[Stickbow Hunter]

We have a deflex-reflex design, which is not a bow, yet we have a recurve, which is a bow, yet both terms are simply describing the differing limb designs.

That is the comment I feel is incorrect Mick and still do. As I have mentioned on previous occasions recurves or longbows can have differing limb designs. If you say your bow is a recurve, while that gives someone an idea of what type of bow you shoot it certainly doesn't let them know what limb design is used in your recurve. The limbs could be just reflexed in design or they could be deflex/reflex in design for example. Depending on the amount of the reflex or deflex/reflex your recurve could be a semi-recurve, static tip recurve or a working recurve.

A semi-recurve can be of various limb designs also; such as reflexed, deflex/reflexed or even reflexed/deflexed.

It is what it is, but if you can put that aside temporarily and reconsider it from a new perspective, surely you must agree that it could have been a much better system. A system that's easier to understand. A system that is uniform in the way it applies to the bow's design.

We will have to agree to disagree about this Mick as I feel the system is uniform in the way it applies to the bow's design. To understand it one must separate bow limb design from bow type.

Flat laid, set back, reflex, deflex/reflex etc and the amount and placement of these in the bow limbs are all to do with limb design. They are used in the making of bows.

Flat bow, English longbow, Howard Hill style longbow, static tip recurve, semi-recurve working recurve etc are types of bows. These are what you end up with once a bow is made.

Maybe I have confused you more but I hope not.

Jeff

[Mick Smith]

I think I'll just let it go at that Jeff.