Traditional Arrow

[jcm]

Thank you Greybeard
John

[littlejohn59]

I was chatting to an unnamed Pink coloured Scientist the other day and we were wondering what defines a traditional arrow and why it is so.
Your thoughts?
Hangon before you start I will grab a large coffee, some chilli jam sauce and bread as this could take awhile.
Quick Sue get Steves meds this will get him going.
Yes I know Nic Lintern has been writing on this and a good artlcle or two but what are your thoughts

I hope the 2 of are enjoying your large coffee,some chilli jam sauce and bread. The both of you certainly know how to rattle particular cages. Its entertaining to say the least.

[GrahameA]

Morning All.

It is a bit like a certain group in AA trying ....

Just because AA, or part of it, has issues is not a reason for the rest of the world to follow.

You can have as many or little number of divisions as you want and you can split them by any criteria. The difficult part is getting other people to play by your rules. Go back to http://www.ozbow.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.p ... 22&start=4

Just because some events want 12" of feathers doesn't make them the arbitrator of all. If you want to shoot at those events have 12" of feathers or don't go. It is a bit like some people wanting to use Carbon Fibre arrows or Alloy arrows. If the event says wood then either get some or don't go.

"Competition and Competitive Events" are not the free-for-all that some people want or at least they want the Rules varied for them.

[Trad Bound]

Longbowinfected, JCM, morganp and Trad bound,

Both Jeff and I have made it perfectly clear what the purpose of Ozbow is - the preservation of all forms of archery and bowhunting practised before the advent of the compound bow.

We make no apologies for this nor will we compromise that purpose. We intend to do whatever we can to preserve those forms of archery because we believe that in so doing, we preserve our ancient and valuable heritage which informs us of who we are as archers and bowhunters and where we came from.

We are not interested in throwing that out in favour of latterday reinterpretations of the term 'traditional'.

If any of you find no value in helping preserve those traditions, then why visit this forum. If the modern forms of supermarket archery which have no interest in preserving our archery and bowhunting heritage or even understand what it is all about are all you are interested in, there are plenty of other forums where you can wallow.

Ozbow has NEVER pretended to be a forum where all forms of archery are welcome. It is, and has always been, dedicated to preserving only the pre-compound archery and bowhunting forms and its vocabulary.

All of this nonsense about definitions arose only because of 'rules of shoot'. What is a traditional arrow? That is an absurdly easy question to answer from the Ozbow perspective.

It is any arrow of a kind in use before the advent of the compound bow. Is that so very difficult to understand?

That definition is a very inclusive one and, I suspect, encompasses just about all the arrows you blokes use presently other than carbon shafted arrows. So, what is your problem?Ozbow has absolutely no interest in how the various archery shooting organizations define their trad archery, so we do not understand why you are arguing that point on this forum.

They have nothing to do with Ozbow and nor has Ozbow had any input into these definitions. It seems to us that you are attributing those rules to Ozbow. Why??
Do please re-read what Jeff and I have posted above. None of you seems to have read those posts and/or understood what we have said. You seem to be arguing at a tangent to the original question posed.

If anybody asks on Ozbow what the definition of traditional archery or equipment is, it is ALWAYS and ONLY what we have defined in the second paragraph above. The oft-repeated re-questioning of what is ‘traditional’ on this forum is both redundant and irrelevant. You have your answer already.

If you join Ozbow, by default, you already have the meaning of the word TRADITIONAL ARCHERY.

As a number of your comments are attributed to myself and others who were interested in this discussion, I feel after much consideration that I should respond.
I have highlight in colour some of you remarks. Firstly I was the person who posed the original question, At no stage have I attempted to put forward a position that is at odds to that I believe is valued on this forum. So I feel in the main people have addressed my question.
As to your assertion that some of us are not wanting to support traditional archery and therefore why visit this forum. I think the reverse has been shown in this discussion, and that is why I asked the question on this Traditional Archery Forum.
Wallow in forums please show the wallowing, this discussion had been going along fine until your outburst, maybe you might like to reread the responses through another less senstive lense because no one has been questioning Ozbow.
I have enjoyed and appreciated the response from those who have participated, obviously something has hit a roar nerve. If by asking and responding to a geniune question about traditional archery has caused this response I am sadly disappointed. Thank you to those who have supported this discussed but it sounds like it has not be appreciated.
Cheers
TonyJ

[morganp]

Tony, I didn't respond myself because I was concerned it would escalate, we have seen unfair deletions and people leaving before. But having read your post i ahve to joiun in despite the risk of being banned by the power holders here.

Obviously Dennis isn't getting enough cuddles.
Let us send him some hugs!! *hug**hug**hug*

His response is well off-balance and defensive needlessly when others just disagree or have a different sense of humour.
I know that 'the named' are all AT LEAST as concerned for archery 'of this kind' as he is, I personally know that some of them (and probably all of them) work very hard on and off the scene to support archery. And I know they do so without looking for acknowledgement or medals. I know of charitable works and other involvement beyond normal expectations that cannot be publicised as it would embarrass not just those people but the recipients.

Obviously Dennis wants recognition and reward and really cannot stand any who differ or disagree even if they are known to be valuable members of this forum and other organisations. Let us hope someone gives him a prize or a plaque somewhere and he will not envy those here anymore who can discuss, debate and even argue without such ire and spite.

[longbowinfected]

Remember my comment about friction?

Tell you what Dennis you are way off beam and out of order. No one contributing here disrespects the Forum, you or anyone else. You are being far too sensitive. It is a discussion. There is no call to get personal if you do not agree with others. Remember two things...time stands still for no one. Every one here has the right to express themselves and have a different point of view, otherwise it would be a monologue.

Get over it.

Kevin

[Ian Turner]

Hi all,
If I remember rightly some time ago when i was getting back into archery after a 30 yr absence, I asked a similar question as to that posed by Tony here as I wanted to know what sort of arrows I required to shoot in Trad competitions and indeed would the modern equivalent of wood shafts ie aluminium and carbon be OK.
I generally came away with the idea that they NO ALUMINIUM OR CARBONS and arrows had to be wood and have 12" of feathers minimum.
So i figured making up a set or sets of arrows using those guidelines i could "legitimately"shoot in any trad archery comp.
Certainly the competitions that are on the list that Sue diligently puts together to provide us all a running calendar of events.
It would be a major drag to turn up to a comp with a quiver full of expensive carbon "trad"arrows to then be told that you couldn't compete.
I guess what i am trying to say here is that it would be great for all event organisers to state on their flyers, advisories,posts etc what bows and arrows qualify for entry to their respective competitions as it is plain to see that there will never be a consenus on equipment that would apply to all.
TAA could well take this matter in hand and come out with recommendations as to what is suitable.
As with all hobbies i, and I assume most participate in Archery for enjoyment of the sport and the people we meet and not to win the proverbial sheep station so really all in all a guideline that most events could adopt would be great.
One last point is that with all the influences on new archers to take up the sport using new flashy high tech compounds and trad archery barely rating a mention is any of the publications and in essence most archery retailers will want to sell the newbie a compound and carbon shafts (even aluminium is now being pushed aside) trad archery; if it is made all to difficulr will disappear in the not to distant future.
Cheers
Ian

[GrahameA]

Hi Ian.

If I remember rightly some time ago .....

My best suggestion.

#1 Make yourself a few dozen wood arrows with 3X4" fletches and 125gn field or bullet points. They will probably comply with the vast majority of what is deemed appropriate.

#2 Either go with a simple wood selfbow longbow or a one piece recurve (nothing with carbon laminations in it) and shoot off the shelf. Again they will probably comply with ....

As for getting a set of common requirements and having them publicised. Save yourself the pain. Having fought the fight for running with some common rules for a few years I suggest that it is easier to heard Cats than get an agreement that people will stick to for more than five minutes.

Equally no matter what is suggested there will be someone or group who wants to push the boundaries. IMHO Whilst there is a group of people who would like "Traditional Archery" events to grow there is a body of people who want to kill them, because they don't agree with something, whilst at the same time proclaiming they support them.

One last point is that with all the influences on new archers to take up the sport using new flashy high tech compounds and trad archery barely rating a mention is any of the publications and in essence most archery retailers will want to sell the newbie a compound and carbon shafts (even aluminium is now being pushed aside) trad archery; if it is made all to difficulr will disappear in the not to distant future.

In my local club we have have more people shooting what would be considered, by some, Trad' Bows than at any time in the past 50 years. We are also seeing a resurgence of archers using recurves compared to compounds, we often have the situation where there are more recurves on the line than compounds. Trad' barely rates a mention because people do not write articles. "Trad' Archers" are their own worst enemies. Retailers sell what the market demands. So it is in the best interests of Trad' Archers to support the retailers who support them. John McDonald (AMSO128), Mark (Tradbits).

[Dennis La Varenne]

Kevin,
Really !!! Way off beam of what? I do not and will not resile from a single comment I wrote above. It needed to be said and as bluntly as possible to wake a few of you people up. The question was what defined a traditional arrow and all but Graeme A started going on about rules of shoot.

Many/most of you give lip-service to Traditional archery and your views from time to time indicate to me that you have no idea of what it comprises or can even agree among yourselves as to what it is. Take your own and Ian's advice and re-read this thread yourself. It is entirely about rules of shoot. Not one of you addressed the original question.

Not one of you described a particular build of arrow which could be regarded as traditional even by your own standards. We have had this and other similar debates and arguments before, and so many, the majority in fact, who bother to participate in such debates are often having a back-handed go at Jeff and myself for our stance on the matter. Traditional archery is defined by its vocabulary like any area of expertise. Very many of those who should know better because of the time spent at archery who still refuse to use correct terminology.

Time does indeed not stand still for anybody. So what! If you are trying to say that traditional archery should move with the times, then you have no interest in tradtional archery or its preservation and I don't know why you bother with Ozbow. If you want to claim respect for the site, then start using correct historical terminology for a starter.

Again, I repeat, the question of what constitutes a traditional arrow is irrelevant on Ozbow.

Ian,
Aluminium arrows are indeed traditional gear. Easton started manufacturing them in the late 1920s. No rules of modern shoot should disqualify them from any form of traditional discipline.

morganp,
If I wanted recognition and reward, I would not be on Ozbow trying to talk some sense into so many people who steadfastlly refuse to abide by what Ozbow stands for. People don't even use traditional archery terminology and constantly try to redefine equipment which did not exist before 1967 or when it did, try to reclassify it as some latterday marketing name despite Jeff's and my constant attempts to get people to use correct terminology, not because we say it is so, but because that was the correct historical terminology for a particular piece of equipment in the pre-1967 era of archery.

Tony,
If people really want to support this forum, then start using correct historical terminology as I have said above. There is an extensive glossary of traditional archery terms which Jeff and I have gone to a great deal of trouble to verify and cross-check. I have re-read through the previous posts and I still cannot see any discussion/debate which directly describes a traditional arrow. All of the responses rely on rules of shoot and how to interpret them. My outburst as you call it was and is necessary and apposite and it is about time that it was said.

[Trad Bound]

Thank you Dennis for your advice

Tony,
If people really want to support this forum, then start using correct historical terminology as I have said above. There is an extensive glossary of traditional archery terms which Jeff and I have gone to a great deal of trouble to verify and cross-check. I have re-read through the previous posts and I still cannot see any discussion/debate which directly describes a traditional arrow. All of the responses rely on rules of shoot and how to interpret them. My outburst as you call it was and is necessary and apposite and it is about time that it was said.

I did not realise I had not used the correct historical terminology, I apologise for my indiscretion, could you please enlighten me as to the language I have used that is inappropriate. As I thougth I had used the correct terminology ie Traditional Arrow and feathers.
Secondly could you please direct me to the extentsive glossary of traditional terms that one should be using as referred to in the above. I have looked and unfortunately I must have missed it I assume it would listed uder the heading "where we stand".
Thirdly I apologise if my participation on this forum has been inappropriate, when I join the forum and have participated in said forum I must have overlooked the instructions (that would be on the front page of the site) that stated that correct historical terminology was required at all times. Please accept my apologies.
As to you comment above about discribing a traditional arrow I must be looking at different responses ie the elements that make up an arrow have been discussed by a number of participants and I note a Mr Greybeard has provide some photograhic images of some fine examples.
I provide a saying I saw recently
"Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong."
I apologise for any concern I have raised by my obviously inappropriate asking of a simple question. I stand corrected.

[jcm]

Time to call an end to it all. Time to move on.
Regards to All.
Have a Good One.
John

[Roadie]

Yes John, I Agree. Roadie.

[Dennis La Varenne]

Tony,

Here is a link to the Glossary. http://www.ozbow.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=14927 There is an older Glossary there from Ozbow's early days which is not referenced unlike the most recent update.

No need for apology. I don't take arguments to heart. Yes that is one of my mottos. If I am wrong, I will admit it as I have done publicly before on this forum. But it must be proven. When I believe I am in the right, I will argue that point until I am physically incapable.

Not many of the members on this forum know how very close we came to closing the site down very recently because of the direction in which it was being taken and the dedicated unwillingness of the majority of members to abide by Ozbow's purpose and who were completely disdainful of what traditional archery is about.

In your own case, I believe that you genuinely did not know what the site stood for. That statement of purpose is on the front page as well as the site's views on hunting ethics. Almost nobody reads them, and arguably perhaps they should be a condition of membership.

When you posited your original question of what is a traditional arrow, to us as founding members of Ozbow, we simply read one of those kinds of thread which we have been trying to get into member's heads that those kinds of question are irrelevant on Ozbow because we have quite specifically defined when the era of traditional archery ended.

That year was 1967 when the compound bow was introduced. All of those posts which try to define what is or is not traditional - and there are legions of them - are really all about introducing debates about the rules of shoot of the various organizations. Mostly, the arguments centre around indignation at the audacity of those organizations to define what shall or shall not be regarded as 'traditional' gear.

None of those many, many arguments has anything to do with what Ozbow regards as traditional archery. We don't define any specific piece of archery equipment as traditional or not. We regard any kind of archery gear as traditional which preceded the introduction of the compound bow, because that point in archery's history was a dramatic turning point in its practice arguably not seen in its previous history.

We do argue about what a longbow is and is not and so forth, but never about whether it is a traditional bow, simply because the design existed before the compound bow, as did aluminium arrows and fibreglassed bows and the use of plastics even back to the 1920s.

However, there are very many non-compound bows whose design did not exist prior to 1967 which many people buy and try to have reclassified as longbows. Most of these bows don't even qualify on the length issue for starters and many try to classify deflex-reflex design bows as longbows when they were already known way back in the 1950s as semi-recurves. Members generally have an appallingly low level of historical knowledge about archery's history and don't seem to care.

To directly answer your original question about the qualification of a traditional arrow only needs the Ozbow answer that it is ANY design of arrow which existed before 1967. So, from an Ozbow perspective, it is really a non-question which is shoot rule related even though you most probably did not intend it as such.

Both Jeff and I are old enough to have been around when trad archery, especially the use of the longbow, almost vanished from Australia. Only a handful of us around the country held it together along with Ted Mitchell who kept the skill alive during the 1980s with his column in Archery Action.

Jeff's idea of starting up the Longbow Musters beginning in 1988 which ran for the next 12 or so years was arguably the most important thing which helped in the preservation of Traditional Archery in this country even though it was a longbow only event. Longbows were in more danger of disappearing than recurves which were the principal bow used in AA competitions.

Jeff's post above told the story of how and why we were able to raise it up almost from the grave. Shoots at the time rarely had more than half a dozen trad shooters unless they were very big regional or State competitions where interstaters would visit just to mix with their own and support each other. We were a dying breed in archery back then and nobody really cared a whit - and many self-styled trad shooters today still do not.

So, this is the position from which we are coming. It is not just a past time to us. It is a huge part of our lives and the only reason why we persist with keeping Ozbow going.

As the two blokes immediately above suggested, it is probably time for a rest from the topic and I will let it alone. If you wish, I am happy to answer any PMs from you on the subject.