Ozbow

Goatchaser wrote: I meant brand for brand, as I have seen posts on here giving heads up to cheap flooring, yes it's cheap but does it perform the same as the brand initially used in the design? What makes me think this way is the fact that some have trouble hitting the target weight when bow building, can't say I have this problem with the action-boo I order as it is up to the supplier to ensure the consistency and they seem to do a god job.

From day one I pointed out that bamboo flooring was exactly that and was never engineered for bow laminations.

Another hidden cost, if you have to honour a warranty claim how many additional bows do you have to sell just to cover the replacement bow. Do you add thirty or forty dollars to each bow sold to cover this cost.

Daryl.

I will not charge extra to my customers for what ifs, if one of my bows has warranty issues I will wear that cost, and make them a new bow.

I believe any reputable maker would do just that!

Bob,

So we know what your interpretation of cheap is can you tell us the price on the bow.

Daryl.

cheap is a relative term, Daryl as we all know.Considering people can buy eBay 'specials' for next to nothing particularly recurves.I shot one last weekend that a friend had just bought which cost less than $200 to his door. For the money it, surprisingly, would be entirely adequate for a novice archer.With mine my cheapest longbows with black glass both sides, and limited input into riser choices start from around $320. This is for a bow that is tailored to suit the customer as we all do.I am not making bows to make my fortune--- the best way to make a small fortune making bows is to start with a large one. Obviously as material involved and belly lams, inlays etc become involved the cost rises proportionally. I have always resisted putting my prices on here and have refrained from 'beating my own drum' in any discussion as I believe it to be in bad taste. I post photos on here because in the main I am proud of creating them and if any one ever likes what they see and contacts me , all to the good. This has only happened several times, but never resulted in any deal. I detest aggressive marketing, believing if some one likes what they see then the ball is with them.I have sold most of my bows by word of mouth and through our club where I have a strong following, and a very good record. I have never had a bow come back to me under warranty except for a deflex/ reflex model which needed a minute amount of shaping at the nock groove due the more acute angle created by these model. I paid for the transport interstate both ways and extended the warranty for the client.

bigbob wrote:With mine my cheapest longbows with black glass both sides, and limited input into riser choices start from around $320.

Bob, That is IMO very cheap and I wouldn't bother making bows for selling to people for that price. I was selling my base models longbows for well over half that again back in the 1990's and I never considered I was ripping anyone off and I never made a lot of money out of it either. Even at those prices, most times I had more orders than I could handle. As you say, build a quality bow and people will buy them.

bigbob wrote:the best way to make a small fortune making bows is to start with a large one.

That is pure classic mate - love it!!! It is pretty close to the truth as well.

Jeff

Bob, I endeavour to get $20.00 per hour plus material costs. Sometimes it is a bit like swings and round a bouts. Although this is a reasonably low hourly rate it may take a couple of weeks to finish the bow as I do it when time permits.

When running my bow workshops some of my clients were earning up to $200.00 per hour.

bigbob wrote:Considering people can buy eBay 'specials' for next to nothing particularly recurves.I shot one last weekend that a friend had just bought which cost less than $200 to his door.

An acquaintance of mine recently imported an Asiatic static tip bow from China via e-bay. The bow landed in Australia for $157.00. My acquaintance could speak Mandarin so he phoned the bowyer to obtain more details of the bow. During the conversation it was revealed that in the bowyers area of China $100.00 was over a weeks wage.

bigbob wrote: I post photos on here because in the main I am proud of creating them and if any one ever likes what they see and contacts me , all to the good. This has only happened several times, but never resulted in any deal. I detest aggressive marketing, believing if some one likes what they see then the ball is with them.

Similarly I do not advertise my bows but do post new creations on this site hoping that it will encourage others to have a go.

I make bows when the mood suits and put them into stock, when one sells I replace it, if I don’t have what the customer wants I send them elsewhere.

Over the years profits from selling bows and running workshops has funded my archery requirements and trips away as well as equipping my workshop.

Daryl.

I have long considered my prices to be too low, but if it means that people who can't afford higher prices do without, then I have always attempted to accommodate them. If I was to charge a rate similar to what you suggest Daryl, and believe me I know that's more than reasonable, given a toilet sweeper probably earns more, then even the basic model would approach $800 and that's discounting a lot of labor still. I will have to lift prices simply to survive , but would rather return a modest amount, keep busy enjoying creating,and getting a lot of people into trad that otherwise might not manage it. I am not trying to create division nor cast censure on any body else, but simply endeavoring to create a product that others enjoy and get satisfaction from.In terms of quality, i believe my bows now are on a par with any similar ones in terms of performance, and quality. I just hope this is not ruffling to many feathers as its simply my take on the whole issue.

Good to see the discussion and frankness from all involved. Don't get into knives and leatherwork not with the price of leather in Australia. It truly is a hobby for me I do the sheaths to finish off the knives I do. I dont make sheaths or quivers for others (except for one person). A sheath can take me 4-9 Hours I sell my knives for $80-150 on average so don't do the math. I get a buzz out of someone being happy and a few dollars is nice. Sorry to jump on your good thread Bob.
Cheers
TonyJ

Yep we are on same page Tony. With similar circumstances there wouldn't be a person in Australia actually making a living from either pursuit, just a lot of people getting great satisfaction from their craft and the pleasure it gives others.

Been following this thread with interest.
I know I stand on a few toes when I talk of not wanting commercialism to be involved in our sport, but this thread illustrates my point perfectly! You blokes are the heart and soul of trad archery, and I go out of my way, even if it costs a little more, to do as much of my business as possible with artisans like yourselves, as opposed to capitalists who's first, and only, priority is profit. I'm certain there are some companies who, should archery fail commercially, would be just as happy to sell armaments to dictators as long as it produced profits.
You blokes do it for the love of it, and it shows in your work.
This is part of what attracted me to trad, and you fellas are the spirit of trad personified. Good on you all!

Hi Craig.

Nephew wrote:Been following this thread with interest.
I know I stand on a few toes when I talk of not wanting commercialism to be involved in our sport, but this thread illustrates my point perfectly! ....

In simple terms it is this .... people will not get rich making bows. And anything in the Trad Archery area really does not not have much profit in it or much area to move when people try to beat down prices ..... then again if they want buy multiple items.......

Seems to me Grahame, that there must be a quid in making compounds, based on the apparent promotional budget for the endless new models of Hoyt compounds alone.
This point is why I stipulated that I love trad as opposed to commercial (mainly compounds) archery, it's not the compounds per se, it's the taint of commercialism that sullies them for me. A huge part of my love of trad is the artisans that have no concern for profits, just love what they do and love seeing others enjoy it.
Anyway, I maintain my primary point...that all the craftsmen that have contributed to this thread represent the true spirit of Trad archery that initially attracted me to this lifestyle, and good for them!

Hi Craig

Nephew wrote:Seems to me Grahame, that there must be a quid in making compounds, based on the apparent promotional budget for the endless new models of Hoyt compounds alone.

IMHO I don't think there is anywhere near as much as what people think. However, the production process has been refined and the "market" is attuned to buying new bows on a regular basis. The big advantage of large companies is they often have the resources for R&D which small businesses lack plus they have resources to "sell" the product. Plus for a business small unit profit and large volume is preferable to larger unit profit and small volume. It is easy to be critical of larger businesses however things are not as rosy as they seem.

For a person like myself it unlikely that there would be any appreciable difference between shooting the latest Hoyt and my somewhat older Hoyt or my even older Martin or older again Hoyt. The issue is not the gear it is the archer. Similarly it really does not matter if I was to shoot a W&W Nano or a Hoyt PM - except I would get a lot more pleasure from shooting the PM. The other week I had a morning of Archery - I chose to shoot a well loved Black Widow, the other weekend I chose to shoot a Yamaha and this weekend it will be a Great Plains. I can shoot equally poorly with all of them.

IMHO Most bows are capable of significantly better scores in the hands of better archers, I would suggest that the single largest impediment to better scores is the archer not the equipment. It appears to be an interesting anomaly that many people will spend money of some unproven doo-dad in the hope of a better score yet will not spend money on coaching (read education). Will now kick soapbox under workbench

bigbob wrote:I have long considered my prices to be too low, but if it means that people who can't afford higher prices do without,

One option could be that if someone could not afford to buy a bow they pay for the materials and consumables etc. up front and then trade labour.
If it took 25 hours to make the bow they give you 25 hours in return doing gardening, housework, digging trenches, concreting and so on.

I have done some silly things like selling a custom recurve for $1.00, giving away three longbows and two weeks later getting enquiries where I could have sold two of them. It’s all water under the bridge.

Nephew wrote:A huge part of my love of trad is the artisans that have no concern for profits, just love what they do and love seeing others enjoy it.

Or are they afraid, reluctant or embarrassed to ask for a fair remuneration for their labour.

If we continue to under value our art / craft we may suffer a less than desirable outcome further down the track.

Daryl.

A friend of mine is a bowyer and a good one at that( friend and bowyer), I would hate to guess how many bows are on longterm loans to be returned to him on the passing of the archer or when they leave archery.
In a similar vane there is a bloke I know who runs an archery supply business who gives to our trad community an amazing amount of support and donations year in year out. Someone I know ordered some gear the other week and when it arrived he supplied a bakers dozen of shafts, my friend was surprised I was not. The same supplier (lets call him John not his real name ) will take weeks to bill you or deduct from your credit card. Boy I tried to return the favour one time that was fun. He is a gentleman too!
We are an interesting lot.

Hi Daryl.

greybeard wrote:... If we continue to under value our art / craft we may suffer a less than desirable outcome further down the track. ....

The Law of Unintended Consequences? People are/should be smart enough to realise the possible consequences of their actions.

If we continue to under value our art / craft we may suffer a less than desirable outcome further down the track.

Daryl.

I realise that Daryl and am endeavoring to walk a fine line between under valuing the bows and exclusion of quite a few by economic circumstances.

greybeard wrote:

bigbob wrote:I have long considered my prices to be too low, but if it means that people who can't afford higher prices do without,

Trad Bound wrote:A friend of mine is a bowyer and a good one at that( friend and bowyer), I would hate to guess how many bows are on longterm loans to be returned to him on the passing of the archer or when they leave archery.
In a similar vane there is a bloke I know who runs an archery supply business who gives to our trad community an amazing amount of support and donations year in year out. Someone I know ordered some gear the other week and when it arrived he supplied a bakers dozen of shafts, my friend was surprised I was not. The same supplier (lets call him John not his real name ) will take weeks to bill you or deduct from your credit card. Boy I tried to return the favour one time that was fun. He is a gentleman too!
We are an interesting lot.

Now I wonder who that would be! Lets just call him John for simplicity's sake.I think nearly anyone of us who know the gentleman would relate similar experiences.

GrahameA wrote:Hi Daryl.

greybeard wrote:... If we continue to under value our art / craft we may suffer a less than desirable outcome further down the track. ....

The Law of Unintended Consequences? People are/should be smart enough to realise the possible consequences of their actions.

I do believe that to be very true, Grahame.

I wish merchants like John ran the Business Council of Australia, we might see see some ethical policies emanate from them...for once!