cheap doesn't have to be nasty!

[bigbob]

Just made this bow for a club mate. It is one step up from bog standard model only in that it has clear glass on the belly rather than standard black glass.

[bigbob]

riser is Black wattle salvaged from campfire wood pile at caboolture club last year, and some Acacia doolalia [?] I sourced with natural bamboo accent strips.

[bigbob]

Natural bamboo belly lams look good IMo and bow is 66 NTN and 45# @ 28''

[Stickbow Hunter]

Nice colour combination in that one Bob.

I like the look of clear glass over Bamboo. My personal bows for the last twenty odd years I have made with clear glass over the Bamboo core back and belly.

Jeff

[bigbob]

It appeals to me too Jeff, and the black wattle would go close to my favourite timber. So much just gets burned in fires! I just got a full tree off a property that was felled for me but fear its not 'the' black wattle but more likely 'sally' wattle. Still good but doesn't have that iridescent sheen that the black wattle does.

[RobHunter]

ANother nice one Bigbob

Rgds

Rob

[indie]

Looks very nice, I like the clear bamboo look. Can I ask what "cheap" means? Can I have one for 20bucks?

[Curvemeister]

Very nice mate , great coulours in it

[bigbob]

Looks very nice, I like the clear bamboo look. Can I ask what "cheap" means? Can I have one for 20bucks?

Thanks Rob and Curvemeister.

[sevenmil]

That really is a nice looking bow bigbob. Can I ask how you finish your riser, is it with an oil or wax?

Just love the finish...

[bigbob]

no worries mate! .I use Tru oil which is a gunstock finish [ about $18 a bottle] on the risers and then after multiple coats of that, go over whole bow with an auto clear lacquer finish multiple times.

[jcm]

Still Classy.
A good looker.
Regards

John

[Goatchaser]

Looks good Bob, certainly not nasty but whats cheap though? I predict that when using bamboo flooring the price could be kept fairly low yes? No use of Phenolic etc in the riser will keep the price down also, did you use any on the tip overlays at all?

[Flatliner]

Nice one Bob, the simple things in life are indeed often the best.

I find it a little amusing sometimes that people have the idea that the materials that go into making a bow effect the price dramatically. I find that the materials used have a very minimal effect on the price, in fact, in my case the materials account for about 10 percent of the over all cost it's the labour put into the extras and over all bow building process that bumps it up a bit. What do you reckon?

Rob.

[Gringa Bows]

Nice one again Bob,i agree mate that Black wattle is nice timber in the riser and in the limbs

[Goatchaser]

I mustn't charge enough then as my costs account for about 70 percent of my bows overall price, lol, for me the reward is in building them and the customer feed back I receive, not trying to make money just nice bows.

[Flatliner]

Well Sean, I suppose things like buying my glass in bulk (which makes a huge difference, last time I bought glass two years ago I think it cost around $12 per strip at my door. but you have to get at least 100) and having access to timbers cut directly from the scrub by small milling operations and myself and a fair bit of recycled timber through my work should also be taken into consideration.

Rob.

[Goatchaser]

I am paying $23 per strip of glass myself, so that's an extra $22.00 per bow not much of a difference at the end of the day, but my bows are also carbon backed unless otherwise specified by the customer and I only use kiln dried stabilised timbers or engineered wood products such as Diamondwood and superaction wood in my bows risers and laminations all come from reputable bowyer suppliers as I like the consistency I get from them, as in I am able to nail all my draw weights bang on the head as to what the customer orders. But as I said the customer feedback is reward enough for me to keep on making bows.

[bigbob]

yeah Rob have to agree, the amount of work really dictates the costs involved though the recent devaluation of the dollar has hit hard. Being on a pension means I don't have a lot of finances and am usually unable to bulk order my glass, though it is a little cheaper than what goatchaser says he pays. A recent order of $180 US cost me about well over $200 Au due to the conversion rate being much lower lately. i also have access to bush sawn timber at times which helps with costs. I detect a little distaste in Seans comments on bamboo flooring, but as Jeff said thousands have been made with the stuff and to the best of my knowledge they all hold up well. Applying carbon is a whole different ball game too, as it starts to blur the line between trad and hightech.i can see some benifits of course but on a personal level chose not to use it.Each to his own I guess.

[Goatchaser]

I only use ULS bo tuff also which is a little dearer than the normal stuff, as for the carbon bows not being trad, I am not aiming my bows at the re enactors of robin hood etc , my bows are aimed at the hunter that wants high performance without a compound bow, the addition of carbon fibre actually reduces a limb stack greatly for the same draw weight resulting in a lighter bow, faster bow and less handshock so it makes sense to me to use it, as for my distaste toward bamboo flooring, it is more the inconsistency from brand to brand and the fact that the price is super cheap when you work out how many lams can be had from one box, hell that would bring my bows down to about $300 at the end of the day,

[bigbob]

I use ULS, get my bamboo from the same supplier [usually] and still have no interest in using carbon. Re your earlier query, I always use phenolic in my nock overlays as all my bows are compatible with fastflite or derivatives.I repeat my comments that vertical bamboo is used by any amount of reputable, knowledgeable, and renowned bowyers worldwide. You are entitled to your opinion re the 'boo as I am with mine.

[Stickbow Hunter]

as for my distaste toward bamboo flooring, it is more the inconsistency from brand to brand

Well mate you obviously haven't tried using natural woods much then. If you think the Bamboo flooring is inconsistent try using different species of timber or even the same wood but from different trees. I'm certain you would soon find out a lot more about inconsistencies.

Even with its inherent inconsistencies I would prefer any day to use natural woods, Bamboo and even Bamboo Flooring over that stable but ugly Diamondwood or Superaction Wood!

the fact that the price is super cheap when you work out how many lams can be had from one box, hell that would bring my bows down to about $300 at the end of the day,

Sean, You may wish to give of your time for virtually nothing, good on you. Others may wish to be given a fair days pay for a fair days work as they say, good on them also. Neither is wrong.

However, IMO if a person wishes to supplement their income by making bows and selling them they will need to charge a reasonable cost for them or they will soon find that their efforts (loss of family time, their own time, maintaining machinery, material costs etc) will far exceed any financial benefits.

Lastly, I agree with Bob and Rob that labour is the biggest cost factor in making and selling any bow.

Jeff

[bigbob]

as for my distaste toward bamboo flooring, it is more the inconsistency from brand to brand

Well mate you obviously haven't tried using natural woods much then. If you think the Bamboo flooring is inconsistent try using different species of timber or even the same wood but from different trees. I'm certain you would soon find out a lot more about inconsistencies.

Even with its inherent inconsistencies I would prefer any day to use natural woods, Bamboo and even Bamboo Flooring over that stable but ugly Diamondwood or Superaction Wood!


Sean, You may wish to give of your time for virtually nothing, good on you. Others may wish to be given a fair days pay for a fair days work as they say, good on them also. Neither is wrong.

However, IMO if a person wishes to supplement their income by making bows and selling them they will need to charge a reasonable cost for them or they will soon find that their efforts (loss of family time, their own time, maintaining machinery, material costs etc) will far exceed any financial benefits.

Lastly, I agree with Bob and Rob that labour is the biggest cost factor in making and selling any bow.

Jeff

yep Jeff as you so rightly say, natural woods will have a much greater range of inconsistencies than the manufactured 'boo. The mere fact alone that some of the world's premier bowyers chose to offer it must say something. I have had natural woods vary by #5 or more for a given stack comparing identical 'recipes'. It is always good to express an opinion but when the opinion is delivered as a proven fact then it gets a bit shaky.

[GrahameA]

Afternoon All.

My $0:02.

... Lastly, I agree with Bob and Rob that labour is the biggest cost factor in making and selling any bow. ...

When I do the sums the most expensive part of making bows is my time. And the more I charge for my time the larger the differential.

If people seriously look at the costs they are:

Labour to build the bow.
"Wear and tear" on plant - amortised over projected plant life.
Consumables.
Material.
Development costs - amortised over projected build numbers. (It is not hard to invest 30/40 hours and $500 before even starting production of the prototype.)
Management/Accounting/Business costs.
General maintenance.
Incidentals.

The big crunch is what do you consider your time is worth or what you could be earning with the time if you were not building the bow (opportunity cost).

[bigbob]

Afternoon All.

My $0:02.

... Lastly, I agree with Bob and Rob that labour is the biggest cost factor in making and selling any bow. ...

When I do the sums the most expensive part of making bows is my time. And the more I charge for my time the larger the differential.

If people seriously look at the costs they are:

Labour to build the bow.
"Wear and tear" on plant - amortised over projected plant life.
This is an often forgotten part of estimating final costs etc as things like a band saw blade [$50] masking tape, filament tape, metho, sand paperto name a few and not least electricity , the effect of which is palpable on our account when ever I 'm building a bow. Consumables.
Freight costs, huge, fuel to gather some materials etc.
Material.
Development costs - amortised over projected build numbers. (It is not hard to invest 30/40 hours and $500 before even starting production of the prototype.)
Management/Accounting/Business costs.
General maintenance.
Incidentals.

The big crunch is what do you consider your time is worth or what you could be earning with the time if you were not building the bow (opportunity cost).

I chose to sell my bows at a very reasonable price, in fact lucky to keep my head above water at times simply to get more people into trad archery. Profit to me is simply a bit of money to get more materials etc.If I deciphered how much an hour my labor costs are returned I would be on parity with some third word countries.

[greybeard]

From the later replies to this post I get the impression that 'cheap' means working for a low hourly rate of pay.

It would be nice to be able to charge half of the hourly that plumbers and electricians charge.

Daryl.

[Flatliner]

Hear hear Daryl, I'm earning less than 1/4 per hour making bows than I do building. So for most of us there's a lot more love of the craft in it than financial gain.

Rob.

[bigbob]

Hear hear Daryl, I'm earning less than 1/4 per hour making bows than I do building. So for most of us there's a lot more love of the craft in it than financial gain.

Rob.

I just do it because its an all consuming desire to keep creating as we would all be afflicted with. Probably earn about 50c Per hour labor wise!

[Goatchaser]

must be the only reason I do it also then , as I do not have an income at all. As for the inconsistencies, I meant brand for brand, as I have seen posts on here giving heads up to cheap flooring, yes it's cheap but does it perform the same as the brand initially used in the design? What makes me think this way is the fact that some have trouble hitting the target weight when bow building, can't say I have this problem with the action-boo I order as it is up to the supplier to ensure the consistency and they seem to do a god job. Now you mention it Graeme A if I take into account wear and tear on plant, consumables, development costs, freight to customer etc I am paying people to own one of my bows. Lucky I enjoy making them.

[GrahameA]

Morning All.

..... Now you mention it Graeme A if I take into account wear and tear on plant, consumables, development costs, freight to customer etc I am paying people to own one of my bows. ...

If a person factored in the training/learning costs - ie the time, etc. spent learning to make bows when you may have had the opportunity to be earning money plus the cost raw materials/transport/whatever- you would be surprised (perhaps horrified) at how much you are paying people to own your bows. The upside is if you sell enough bows you will eventually recoup those costs and start making a profit.

If you think Training, etc. is expensive try Ignorance.

The crunch is if you are very "hard headed" about it most people would be better off, financially, if they just purchased bows.

Then again there is intrinsic pleasure/reward of using a piece of gear you have made yourself and what value do you place on that? And there is the pleasure of making things ...... and the pleasure of seeing someone else using stuff that you have made. All rewards which it is hard to place dollar values on.