GROZER BIO COMPOSITE has arrived / and EBay Asiatic

[perry]

My Grozer Bio Composite has arrived. It is the Magyar Model. To say I'm happy is an understatement. When I tore open the packaging I was very impressed - this is one Gorgeous looking Bow. Its the new Model 45# @ 28".

Heres a Belly Up Photo - Pretty -

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For those not Familiar with the Grozer Bio Composites here's a link to Grozers Blurb http://hunarchery.com/catalog/product_i ... cts_id=173 If your not inclined to follow the Link basically they have substituted a Modern Glue for Fish Bladder Glue to Glue the Bows Horn Belly to the Timber Core. The Sinew Back is set in the same Glue. Looks to me like they press it into a Lamination. They claim the Bows have similar Properties to a full Composite but are not Temperature sensative of affected by Humidity.

A couple of weeks back I ordered a Black Glassed Asiatic of EBay. It was $150 plus postage so for that money I thought Why not !! It did not come with the usual Leather Limb Covering. As you'd expect for a Cheapie from China the finish is bordering on ordinary but I can live with it. It is 45# @ 28" It's not all good though, this is not the Model I ordered. I ordered a Bow with the Glass extending over the Sayahs back and belly. The Sayahs are bound on the one they sent me. I'm still happy but have sent a narky email to them. It has Verticaly laminated Sayahs and short String Nocks, about 7" of unbraced Reflex and shoots Damn well - I was surprised. The Factory String was ordinary so I Twisted up a new String with longer Loops.

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Now back to the Sexy Bio Composite, check out the unbraced Reflex in the Photo under Folks, thats a 12" Ruler for Reference. This is one tough Bow to String. It's only 45# but hauling those Limbs back through nearly 12" of Reflex will take some getting used too !! Grozer recommends the "Step Through Method" which is all well and good but due to the design of the Bow it is very awkward to do so. I have Bark off my Shin as a result - Its drawn blood already so should Hunt well It is safest to String with 2 People.

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Ok now the not so good stuff about the Grozer Magyar Bio Composite - [1] Factory String - 10 Strands of unknown Fast Flyte type Material Endless Loop. I felt it was too Short and the Serving marginal. The Serving was underbound with clear Monofiliment, probable 20# breaking strain Fishing Line. I felt the Loops where to Short also. I made a 16 Strand TS1 Plus Flemish Twist String with 1/2" longer Loops than the Factory String and the Bow looks much happier at Brace Height

[2] First time I picked up the Grozer I noticed it had more heft than I expected. It probably weighs 1/2 again physically what the EBay Asiatic does, the Horn Laminations on Belly, Grip and Siyahs would be most of the extra weight. I have also been bothered by the great lumps of wood the Bow Makers stick on the end og the Limbs and as I expected the extra Mass does add to Handshock. The EBay Asiatic actually has less Handshock due to less mass at the end of the Limbs.

[3] I understand why Grozer used Jute String as Limb Bindings but it does look ordinary to my Eyes. Obviously they have access to Sinew so why could they not use it ?

[4] There is the odd Tool Mark still visible on the Horn Laminations but overall it is finished well.

[5] Why the Long String Nocks, all that extra Length above the String Groove makes Bracing it Harder and the extra mass robs Cast !!

The Bio Composite is not unpleasant to Shoot but compared to say my Rivers Edge Arroyo recurve it has some Handshock. It has incredible String Tension and seems to Zip the 550 gr Arrows I've been shooting with plenty of Authority. I don't have easy access to a Chrony but based on experience I'd say in the mid 160 to 170 fps. I'll report back with correct Numbers soon as I can arrange a Chrony.

Regards Jacko

[perry]

Here's some more Photo's

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I've shot it enough today for my Shoulder to be giving me a little Curry but only in the Backyard, 8 metres Max Range. I will give it a good workout at the Range tomorrow

regards Jacko

[Bill]

Perry, I don't know enough about those bows, but they do look nice. Just how do they feel when shooting, say compared to a 52" recurve, smooth to draw, no shock when shooting, you don't get that flip forward/over feeling when the arrow is thrust forward, because of the solid ends. I have been interested in getting one myself, but like I said, I need to learn a bit more about them, thanks for the showing, very enjoyable..........Bill

[Buranurra]

Great stuff mate, very thorough write up. Have your tried the sit down stringing method Lukas Novotny recommends? You need a second person though.

[perry]

Evening Fella's . Just stepped back in after Shooting some more Arrows from the Grozer.

Bill the Magyar is just over 62" ntn and Draws with no Stack and even tension throughout. It has great String Tension at Brace and feels quite different to Draw than my 43# 62" Rivers Edge Arroyo which is a conventional Static Recurve ? It's hard to describe but it's almost a feeling that the Draw Weight is easing as I near Full Draw. This is all about the String Angles created as the Siyahs open of coarse.

On a little Tangent I chose the Magyar because of its long NTN length and its relatively flat Handle. I came very close to buying the Assyrian Model as it has a more forward handle but its only 58" or so NTN. The Assyrian also does not have the mass at the extremities of the Bow and I'll bet 10 to a dozen it would have minimal Handshock - It would make a terrific Field and Hunting Bow and I mentioned to my Wife this Arvo I see one in my future.

The EBay Bow feels different again. Its gotta be 65" NTN, it too has excellent String Tension at Brace and an even progresve Draw. It is softer in the Hand on Release than the Grozer which is lively on Release. As I said earlier I put the Grozers Handshock down to the Mass of the outer Limbs. It is not unpleasant and after a few Arrows I do not notice it. The new longer String and resulting lower Brace Height has helped this. Hand placement is crucial, get it wrong and the Bow Bucks a little more.

I wonder if this Bow would have less Handshock and be happier Tiller wise if it where Shot using a Thumb Ring ???

Which brings me to another little Nit Pick - the Bowyers Mark is on the Top Limb just above the Binding. I feel Mr Grozer would have been better served by placing the Bowyers Mark on the Strike Plate so the Archer had a repeatable spot to place their Hand. Now to be fair whether it was good luck or good design the Horn changes Colour right where I place my Hand

Jase I have Braced the Bow with the sit down method. A Workmate helped on Thursday and my Wife Hindered Opps Helped me greatly earlier today. Its a bit of an effort also, but far Safer. I think I will make Myself an Ankle Strap. At the least it will save the Bark on my Shins

regards Jacko

[Roadie]

I take it Perry you are one Happy Puppy. Cheers Mate Roadie.

[perry]

G/Day Grant, hows the Sunny Gold Coast Mate, how'd you Shoot today ??

[Roadie]

Like a Wooly Goat, some one down here who set the course & Targets must have had a deprived child hood (Mongrel), but am Having a Ball. Catch up soon. Cheers Roadie.

[Buranurra]

here is a pic of the jig and link

http://leatherwall.bowsite.com/TF/lw/th ... CATEGORY=3

[greybeard]

Perry,

The Grozer looks good and you seem happy with its shooting qualities. How would you rate the bow as value for money?

Hand placement is fairly critical with these styles of bow and I think you will find the bow will feel more balanced when using a thumb ring.

Did you have any trouble getting up off the floor after stringing the bow?

Daryl.

[perry]

Perry,

The Grozer looks good and you seem happy with its shooting qualities. How would you rate the bow as value for money?

Hand placement is fairly critical with these styles of bow and I think you will find the bow will feel more balanced when using a thumb ring.

Did you have any trouble getting up off the floor after stringing the bow?

Daryl.

Grozer and all the Shops that stock his products where running a 100 Euro discount run out the old model Sale when I paid for this Bow. Hun Archery honoured the discount price and supplied me a new Generation Bio Composite. Including Shipping the Bow ended up costing me just under $500 including Shipping. I got great value for Money in my Book.

I would be happy to pay the full Price of 370 Euro if I where to buy another Bio Composite. Just Saying - I like the Assyrian.

Daryl there are better Bows out there for this sort of Money but none hold the appeal that this Bow does. I will continue to chip away with the Tuning, Different String Materials, modifying Loop and String Length, Brace Height, Nock Height, properly Spined Arrows etc and due to the Limb Mass it will never be Handshock free. How Bad is the Handshock - less than just about every Hill Style Flatbow I have ever Shot and on Par with my Brigalow Selfbows.

Late this Arvo I was in the backyard, the Mrs was hanging the Washing, the Cat was chasing Insects and I was Stringing this Bow. I Grunted and Groaned as I draged those Limbs back, the Binding Rasped the final layer of Skin off my Shin. Another few seconds and I reckon I would have hit the Deck in a Feint Making an Ankle Strap before I go to the Range tomorrow Morning

regards Jacko

[Gringa Bows]

I like the look of those bows Perry....

[Stickbow Hunter]

Interesting looking bow. I was surprised to see the wood grain in the siyahs running in the opposite direction for what would be considered best for strength purposes. To me it would seem a weak point in the bow. What kind of horn is used?

How Bad is the Handshock - less than just about every Hill Style Flatbow I have ever Shot

You mustn't have shot any good ones then.

Jeff

[perry]

Jase I had a good look at that Thread you posted the Link too - Outstanding, thanks. I am getting more confident about Wrapping the Bow around my Legs and this morning I made an Ankle Strap, much better and the Skin on my Shins will get a chance to heal now

Jeff , my thoughts initially aswell but to this point all's well. I had a Nock come off on Release in the Bow this Morning, it bounced down Range as I stood there mouth agape. Yet another argument for Self Nocks, don't like Plastic. If it can take a Dry Fire, the one Siyah with Grain like that will be fine. It looks like a type of Ash thats had a stain applied.

I can not be certain of the Horn they have used Jeff, there is nothing I've seen in the Manufacturers Facts. It is quite Thick and he has scraped the Horn chasing Tiller. Those that have not made Bows would not pick this up.

I gave the Grozer a real good Workout today - I am quite happy to admit I shot Split Vision up to my Point Blank Range and then I Gap from 30 yards out. I have all my Bows and Arrows set up so that they Shoot to roughly the Same Point of Aim. Shooting the same Arrows which just happened to be Spined correctly for this Grozer as I shoot from both my 43# Rivers Edge Arroyo and 57# Brigalow Selfbow this Grozer Shoots 50 cm Higher at 30 Yards - Crikey it shoots Flat. This means I have options to Shoot even Heavier Arrows and maintain my Gaps out past 30 Yards and that it's performance with even heavier Arrows for it's modest 45# should be Steller. Max series 5 ABA Targets are almost Easy the Bow shoots so Flat.

Something else happened today, the more I shot this Bow, the more it seemed to Break In, to settle into my Draw Length, feel more comfortable in Hand, to become an extension of my Shooting Form. The best Selfbows I've made have this same quality. I think it's the Natural Materials these Bio Composites are put together from. Mr Grozer has done his Homework. I just hope my Breaking In comment does not seem like a load of Rubbish. By the end of the Day this Bow felt different to Draw and Shoot than it did yesterday. There is absolutely no loss of Reflex.

My previous comments about the Bows faults still stand, no use sprouting BS if there are things the Manufacturer can do to improve the Bow but it is fast becoming a Favourite and I can see it taking pride of place on my Bow Rack

regards Jacko

[Stickbow Hunter]

Jeff , my thoughts initially aswell but to this point all's well. I had a Nock come off on Release in the Bow this Morning, it bounced down Range as I stood there mouth agape.

I bet it was. I'm glad all is well with the bow.

I can not be certain of the Horn they have used Jeff, there is nothing I've seen in the Manufacturers Facts. It is quite Thick and he has scraped the Horn chasing Tiller. Those that have not made Bows would not pick this up.

Very interesting about the horn being scraped. It would be good to know the type of horn that was used as it must of a large size and thickness to start with.

Jeff

[Blinkybill]

That bow looks awesome Perry! The ebay cheapy doesn't look too bad either. It'll be interesting to see how it lasts at that price..
Are you going to try shooting it with a thumb release?

Ben

[perry]

Ben I am keen to learn how to Shoot with a Thumb Ring. I have read and saved the Links to How to make Thumbring Articles and have suitable Horn. I found one Onine Article on Layered Leather Thumb Rings also. There is also a book Kays thumb Ring Book that I have been meaning to order. I just don't see how you can use a side of the face Anchor with a Thumbring and have a repeatable Anchor. Seems to me you would have to use a single point Anchor. With a Mediteranion Loose I now have a 3 point Anchor.

Then again I am probably talking out of my Hat and should just Jump in and Learn

regards Jacko

[GrahameA]

- I like the Assyrian.

Supposedly (potentially) the fastest bow that Grozer makes.

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You need to be strong enough to string it,

[rmcpb]

If you go for the thumb ring use a horn one. I tried the leather one and damn near killed my thumb. My eBay special is like yours but I classify it as a fun one to shoot for the money. I would love to get a good one, and will one day as I really like it.

[Blinkybill]

Hi Perry,
I had a go at one of those boiled leather thumb rings a little while ago and it definitely helped, but it made the skin around my thumb very sore. I guess from an incorrect fit. But for now im getting by with shooting just a 40# bow and wrapping my thumb with tape. Seems to go alright. I definitely find I get much better arrow speed from the thumb release.
I have only just put in an order for Kay's thumbring book. From Nomadic Arts Archery. http://www.nomadicartsarchery.com/
It's had good reviews so im keen to have a read.

I've also ordered a pack of cheap plastic thumbrings. Like these http://www.smgung.co.kr/2010/image/r_2010_22.jpg
They were only 20USD a pack so I bought two packs. I dont expect them to be of great quality but hopefully it will at least give me maybe a bit more of an idea of what sort of shape to go for when i make my own, having never actually held or felt a proper thumbring before. I was thinking it may also give me the chance to possibly modify them a little and experiment with longer/shorter/wider,etc. Ill be happy to send you or anyone else thats interested a couple when they arrive if you would like to have a play with them?

I hope the new bow is still going well

Ben

[temudjin]

Hey Perry,

great to see your new bow has arrived and glad to hear you are enjoying shooting it. I found that the more I shoot my Assyrian the better it feels also and my shooting with it continues to improve - although that could just be the extra practice?

On the thumbring, 3 Rivers have them available in horn - the challenge is getting the correct size for you thumb. The fit has to be just right so that you can get them on and off, but when on and rotated through 90 degrees they are effectively "locked" onto your thumb. Then of course you need to get used to shooting off the other side of the bow which has been a real problem for me as I cant my bow over.

Anyway enjoy your new bow - it certainly is a lovely looking thing.

[perry]

Thanks for sharing those little insights Ben, I can well imagine a poorly fitting thumb ring would get pretty painfull. A few weeks back when I first mentioned buying Kays Thumbring Book I found it cheaper than Nomadic Arts sell it for, I'll see if I can find where it was again. I have experimented with Hardening Leather in the past. Truely amazing how hard you can get it. You would be amazed how hard you can get a Knife Sheath by simply Heating it with a Hair Dryer.

I think the best Part of Archery for me is the never ending rediscovery of Ages Past. I thought I knew a bit about Archery, then I discovered this Eastern European / Asian side of it. Truely amazing.

Tom, was wondering when you would come along - You might have guessed I like this Bow. Already had another Shot this Morning but my Targets getting a bit old and the first Arrow blasted through it and made a resounding Thwack against the Back Board so thought it best not to upset the Neighboors at 5.45 am. I often sit with it and just admire it.

Have you seen the Link posted by yeoman in Traditional Crafts on the Old Timer demonstrating the steps in making a Magyar Composite, very interesting.

As for the Bow Settling or Breaking In, interested you report a similar thing. As I've made a great many Selfbows and One Sinew Backed Bow I am familiar with the Breaking in process. From Freshly Tillered and over the Coarse of a number of Full Draw Arrows the Bows do seem to change their character.

I am struggling to put into words exactly how this Bow is changing the more I shoot it. I lifted this from Grozers Blurb

Due to these biocomposite materials and the modern technology these bows are faster then the simple laminated bows. They are appreciably soft and without any resonance when drawing. These bows give almost the same shooting experience than a hornbow and even their appearance is similar, although the biocomposite bows are flatter.

It's hard to put into words but "appreciably soft and without any resonance" is spot on. Puzzling as Soft is not a word commonly used with a Bow that performs as well as my Magyar Bio Composite does

regards Jacko

[yeoman]

There's a new book on shooting with the thumbring that's going to be released in just a couple of days:

http://www.thumbringarchery.org/

It costs quite a bit more than Kay's book, but I would say it contains quite a bit more too. I'm thinking of picking it up myself.

Dave

[Blinkybill]

I've just ordered one of those books for myself!

Ben

[GrahameA]

Hi Perry.

... I can well imagine a poorly fitting thumb ring would get pretty painfull. A few weeks back when I first mentioned buying Kays Thumbring Book I found it cheaper than Nomadic Arts sell it for, ....

What bow are you going to use with your thumbring?

You have a Chinese Bow and a Mongol Bow. Which do not necessarily use the same draw or ring. (I, not being at all fluent use the same draw for all my bows when using an Asian Draw - which is directly the result of not being competent.) If I was a tad more serious I would make myself a Chinese Thumbring and shoot my Chinese Bow with a Chinese Thumbring and Technique and use the appropriate technique with other bows.

The more time I spend with Aisiatic Bows the more things I learn.

[greybeard]

Perry, perhaps you could make a kemend for bracing the bow?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVPs9zRA ... creen&NR=1

Daryl.

[bigbob]

There you go Perry!!! Make one of them I'm sure your missus will help you get back off the floor! For every problem there is an answer lurking about usually on Utube!. Good one Daryl.

[perry]

Can you imagine how much Nylon Webbing I'd need to make one of those to wrap around my ample Middrift - Hang On Greybeard are you trying to tell me something



I have refined stringing the Bow since I made the Ankle Strap, I'd equate it too as much effort as Push / Pull Stringing an 80# Flat Laid Bow. Another few weeks I won't even notice the effort. There is a thread in Traditional Crafts that features a Video of Making a Magyar Compositie, Towards the end he strings it using a Leather Stirrup. Worth making one to try out.

Grahame it's a reproduction of a 10th Century Magyar Bow, Eastern European. I've seen Video of this type of Bow being shot with a Mediteranian Loose and an unspecified Thumbring with several different Anchor Points depending on the Video. I chose it not based on anything Technique or Culturally Specific but it appeared the most suitable Bow Grozer made simply due to the Handle Design and long ntn length. This is one of the reasons I have never been dead set keen to be involved with Period Correct Reinactment, I have ecclectic tastes. I knew there was different Shape Thumbrings etc but understand little else. I'll take what you have suggested on Board but am only really interested in a Side of the Face Anchor / Shooting off my Thumb.

yeoman, As usuall always looking for more insights, I have just paid for my Archery Alliance Expo Shoot and Feed and will now decide which Thumring Book to purchase in the next little while, thanks for the Heads up

regards Jacko

[GrahameA]

Hi Perry.

Grahame it's a reproduction of a 10th Century Magyar Bow, Eastern European. I've seen Video of this type of Bow being shot with a Mediteranian Loose and an unspecified Thumbring with several different Anchor Points depending on the Video. I chose it not based on anything Technique or Culturally Specific but it appeared the most suitable Bow Grozer made simply due to the Handle Design and long ntn length.

It is a great choice and like yourself I have seen bows shot from both sides of the bow along with a range of releases. Same story for the Chinese bow.

However, given the time it takes to master a thumring style you may wish to concentrate on one style and use it for all.

.. I have never been dead set keen to be involved with Period Correct Reinactment, I have ecclectic tastes. I knew there was different Shape Thumbrings etc but understand little else. ...

And that is a good way to be. Excess Rules annoy me. I want get a Ming thumbring to go with my bow but am currently low on enthusiasm towards archery. Did I tell you about my new Fishing Reel??

[Buranurra]

Perry, perhaps you could make a kemend for bracing the bow?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVPs9zRA ... creen&NR=1

Daryl.

Top link that! Thanks for sharing.