Bio-Composite

[GrahameA]

Afternoon All

Do Bio-Composite Bows qualify as primitive bows?

Biocomposite laminated bows

New technology.
Actually it combines the laminated, the TRH laminated, the TRH Extra II laminated bows.
And to some extent the extra III bows as well. The bows made by this technology consist of the following materials: the middle layers of wood, the inner layer of pressed horn, while the outer layer of pressed sinew plate. These two layers are glued to the wooden plate by modern glue and the glued layer gets a fibre strengthening.
Due to these biocomposite materials and the modern technology these bows are faster then the simple laminated bows. They are appreciably soft and without any resonance when drawing.
These bows give almost the same shooting experience than a hornbow and even their appearance is similar, although the biocomposite bows are flatter.

Grozer website http://www.grozerarchery.com/main.htm

The bows are made with of traditional material held together by modern glues

[perry]

Grahame I am very interested in getting one of these Bio Composite's. My Wife and I are involved in "Diplomatic Negotiations" at present. As soon as my Tax Return is in my Bank Account I will seek Asylum at another Embassy before I flex my Debit Card. I like the Grozer Mongol, Hungarian and Assyrian Models.

As I understand the way IFAA / ABA defines the materials allowed in the Historical Bow Division, they do not allow, Natural Glues such as Hide Glue. The specifically mention modern glues are Ok to use in a Historical Bow reproduction.

When I first become aware of these Bio Composites at the Hinterland Trad Shoot my interest was immediatly peaked. One thought that crossed my mind was that they may well have been produced to create the illusion of a Horn How at 1/3 the price and that they fit into the European IFAA Game definition well.

The Rules and Definitions that Yourself, Greybeard and I drafted after much information sharing and discussion on this Forum and in Person with a great many other Archers specifically allow the use of Modern Glues in the Primitive Bow Division. If you can glue together a Tri Lam Bow with Epoxy and shoot in Primitive Division at a Trad Shoot Isee zero difference with the Bio Composites

So yes according to the Definitions currently in place at some of the Trad Shoots about the place and on the world stage in IFAA competition I believe they would qualify. Happy to have my memory of these Rules / Definitions corrected

regards Jacko

[GrahameA]

Hi Perry.

I agree.

The Chinese bows appeal to me... Then again most Grozer's design appeal to me.

[Chase N. Nocks]

G'day Grahame and Perry,

Due to these biocomposite materials and the modern technology these bows are faster then the simple laminated bows. They are appreciably soft and without any resonance when drawing.

This is interesting. How can this be as it seems a contradiction to what is expected with high performance recurves and longbows.

I also like the Grozer bows but find as I am starting to develop arthritis in my hands (still in it's beginning stages thank goodness) so I would need to build the riser section up so that it gives me a more conventional recurve grip.

cheers
Troy

[greybeard]

G'day Grahame and Perry,

Due to these biocomposite materials and the modern technology these bows are faster then the simple laminated bows. They are appreciably soft and without any resonance when drawing.

This is interesting. How can this be as it seems a contradiction to what is expected with high performance recurves and longbows.

I also like the Grozer bows but find as I am starting to develop arthritis in my hands (still in it's beginning stages thank goodness) so I would need to build the riser section up so that it gives me a more conventional recurve grip.

cheers
Troy

Troy,

I would not try to read too much in the wording, without comparison data it means nothing.

Daryl.

[mikaluger]

I like the Assyrian model, that shape really appeals to me!!!!!!
Very Nice.

[perry]

I have spent quite a while browsing Grozers site looking at these Bows, yes the Chinese appealed especially with it's longer NTN length but the amount of unbraced Reflex scares me a bit. Then again the amount of unbraced Reflex in the Indian Bio Composite is something else. I would not attempt to string one of these Bows without a Stringer of some sort. I do note on the website they seem happy enough to wrap them around their Legs with the Handle on the Hip.

regards Jacko

[Chase N. Nocks]

Hi Daryl,

I had a chuckle at you reply. It is as you say, the proof is in the figures. Be interesting to see if there are any out there.

Perry, the Indian Bio?? which one is that?

There are also two bows from the NOMAD link that take my eye.

The NOMAD Indian (leather backed) and the Nomad Assyian (laminated) http://www.nomadbows.com/index_m.htm

Of the Bio bows the Assyian, Turkish and Avar bows appeal to me best. http://www.grozerarchery.com/index_b.htm

these are the one that would I think match my Horsebowman Physique best.

Cheers
Troy

[perry]

G/Day Bloke, go to the Home page, select Stock and follow the prompts . You'l see the Bio Composites listed

regards Jacko

[greybeard]

Troy,

Is this the Nomad Indian you were referring to?

Nomad Indian.jpg (53.21 KiB) Viewed 5402 times

If so the top limb looks a bit out.

Daryl.

[perry]

Morning Folks, I've been doing a little more research and some thinking on these Bio Composites. Now I never accept a manufacturers Claims and even taking into account loss of detail through translation I had wondered if the blurb was a little Vague as to the description of what materials are in the Bow. I found a reference on Palio Planet Forum where a chap has had a good hard long look at his Grozer Bio Composite and it appears they have Fibreglass Lams in there construction, here's the link -

http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/reply/ ... osite-bows

Best bet would be to talk directly with Grozer. Not bothered they may not qualify for use in a Primitive Bow Division, they are still a very interesting bit of kit and seeing as I do not have the time and more importantly the motivation to make myself a Sinew Horn Composite, a Faux may well do.

To this point I have been underwelmed with so called Horse Bows, crook Cast, Handshock, why they slow them down further with heavy leather on the Limbs I'll never know but I have developed an "Itch", my Tax return came through yesterday and I am waiting for Grozer to get back to me with details of how they want me to pay for a Hungarian Bio Composite they list as having in stock

regards Jacko

[Blinkybill]

Hi guys,
I haven't posted on this forum in quite a while but lately I've been just hanging around and reading but I love shooting asiatic static tip bows so this interests me.

That post on paleoplanet is really interesting Perry. Thanks.
I'm also very close to buying myself a bio composite bow from Grozer, particularly the mongol or the hungarian bow. At the moment I am shooting a 50# Old Scythian bow from him and it is an excellent bow. I think I remember him charging a fair bit for postage though. I'd love to know how it goes if you do end up getting yourself a bio composite bow.
Cheers,

Ben

[perry]

Will do Ben, I was speaking to a Fella 3 weeks ago that bought a Grozer Fibreglass Lam, probably an Assarian [ cant remember] and a Bio Composite which again not sure, perhaps was a Hungarian. I do remember being fascinated with the construction and that it cost him $750 for the 2 Bows and Postage. I guess I'll land one in the Country for around $600

If they do not get back to me in a reasonable time frame it was not meant to be

regards Jacko

[Blinkybill]

Well hopefully he does get back to you in good time! I dont see why he wouldn't... Although he definitely wasn't as easy to deal with as any aussie I've ever dealt with. That might just be to do with the translations though. But I definietly don't doubt his workmanship, having tried a few of his different bows.

[greybeard]

As I understand the way IFAA / ABA defines the materials allowed in the Historical Bow Division, they do not allow, Natural Glues such as Hide Glue. The specifically mention modern glues are Ok to use in a Historical Bow reproduction.


The Rules and Definitions that Yourself, Greybeard and I drafted after much information sharing and discussion on this Forum and in Person with a great many other Archers specifically allow the use of Modern Glues in the Primitive Bow Division. If you can glue together a Tri Lam Bow with Epoxy and shoot in Primitive Division at a Trad Shoot Isee zero difference with the Bio Composites


regards Jacko

and they say that you can not use low stretch string material and must use dacron.

Daryl.

[temudjin]

Hi Guys,

I have three of these Grozer biocomposite bows - all bought in the last couple of months at Euro250 each. I have a mongolian, a scythian (which is a wicked little recurve) and an assyrian. I am no expert but I really enjoy them - but then I am a fan of asian historical bows and would rather shoot one of these than a modern fibreglass bow. I must be just a little odd I guess.

I am also no expert on the construction of these biocomposites - they certainly have horn facing the archer and sinew on the other side with what looks like wood in between and they really look a treat. Not sure if there is any fibreglass, if there is it is not easily visible. Both the mongol and the assyrian of course have the static siyahs which add mass to the tips while the scythian is a short recurve. Mine are all same weight - around 45# - but the scythian "feels" harder to pull to full draw. Not sure if it is finger pinch or it just stacks?

Anyway, I'd be happy to answer any questions anyone has - given I know the answer of course - and I'll try and post some photos tomorrow if there is interest.

[perry]

Thanks for the reply Tom, first hand experience is always good to draw from. Photo's would be cool if you could manage that thanks. It is still the weekend in Hungary so I'm not expecting any responce to my payment question to Grozer for day or 2. How did you find them to deal with and how did you pay for the Bows. I was hoping Grozer accepted paypal and was not happy when the message came up on Checkout "they do not accept payment from this region" but I understand payment is through a Bank Transfer from what I have read on other Forums

I will ask Grozer whether there is any Fibreglass in these Bows construction, from what I have seen I'd say No, but then there is that reference over on Palio Planet. It would be great if these Bows only had Horn, Timber and Sinew in there consctuction. I can see no reason why you would need Fibreglass in their construction. I have used Bondcrete, a PVA Glue with Sinew and it dried to an amazingly tough strip.

Daryl , It is most frustrating reading the IFAA /ABA Rules for this division. Syd Green told me at the time that one of the reasons the Rules such as no Self Nocks, no natural String material but Plastic Nocks, Dacron OK etc was a Litigation issue ?? I do recall asking IFAA for clarification and never received any acknowledgement my Questions / suggestions and subsequent emails where received. I still have a draft of the Questions and suggestions for Rule changes I sent on file here somewhere.

regards Jacko

[temudjin]

Hi Perry,

you might try the website link below.

http://hunarchery.com/catalog/laminated ... -c-23.html

I bought two bows from Grozer himslef - a little complicated in sorting out payment as I had to go to the bank and create an international transfer which cost me A$30. The third bow I bought came from the Grozer dealer at the link above who accepted PayPal from memory and was the same price per bow as those direct from Grozer.

I'll try and get some piccies tonight and post them tomorrow.

[perry]

Thanks for the link Tom. I had visited that site before. I have ended up purchasing a Bio Composite Hungarian. The had a full Composite Bashkir on special for 520 Euro, nearly spent more than my budget. Payed with Paypal and price including shipping came in at under $500

bio_lam_magyar1[1].jpg (12.15 KiB) Viewed 5321 times

Looking forward to receiving the Bow, sooner than later - Crikey I'm impatient

I think it was in 2008 whilst the basis for the Rules / Definitions where being drafted the Victorian contingent in particular where making quite a bit of noise to have their Fibreglass Horsebow replica's included in the Primitive Division. I hope I can get to the bottom of the construction of these Bows as further surfing the net has revealed nothing other than Grozers description of Horn Belly, Wood Core and Sinew Plate Belly glued with an undisclosed modern Glue. I hope in the end they do end upbeing able to be shot in the Primitive Bow division

I resolved at the time with all the noise the Vics where making to get a Horsebow and see what all the noise was about, now I have found an Asiatic Replica that interests me. Might even compete with it next year, we'll see

regards Jacko

[greybeard]

Hi Perry,

I hate being a pain in the backside but we may have to revisit the trad rules and make some changes.

Rules
TRADITIONAL / PRIMITIVE DIVISION.

• The purpose of this division is to promote and preserve the cultural and historically significant bows of the pre fibreglass era.
• Selfbows, Horn and Sinew Composites, Cable backed bows, Penobscot bows, laminated Bamboo and other natural material composites are allowed.
• There is no separation of straight limbed, recurved or composite bows.
• Arrow shelfs cut into the handle of the bow are not permitted unless it is a historically accurate reproduction.
• Leather pads or similar built up and glued to the handle are permitted.
• The use of natural string materials and glues is encouraged.
• No modern materials shall be used in the bows construction with the exception of modern glues. note 2.1
• Modern string materials are permitted.
• A Selfbow shall be defined as a bow whose limb mass is of one piece of wood or other historically correct material. note 2.2


Perhaps we should replace the word ‘Primitive’ with ‘Neolithic / Mesolithic’ to cover the all wood bows such as the Holmegaard, Stellmoor, Meare Heath and Otzi type bows.

Other bows such horn and sinew composites etc would stay in the traditional division.

I realize that there are various interpretations of the meaning of primitive; the link below is just one of them.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/primitive

Daryl.

[perry]

AAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH NNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

When do we start

Seriously Daryl, I am comfortable with the wording in Primitive Division as it stands now. The question is are the Punters. As before I will compromise my beliefs to a minor degree if someone can show me the Rules / Definitions could be improved markedly with such a change.

There is a number of other Bow Designs in use or in Museums today that are only known as far as our History is concerned since the European settlement of Asia, Africa or the America's that may or may not be as old, may or may not have a direct link to the Artifacts you list due to Cultural Exchange those thousands of years ago, were do you stop.

regards Perry

[greybeard]

Perry,

I was wondering if we are going to end up with grey areas. If you are going to the Gympie trad shoot we could have a bit of a chat about the subject.

Your new bow looks good, will you have it in time for Gympie?

At the moment I am looking at the Saluki static tip bows, very nice work. They are probably a good investment in the longer term.

Daryl.

[perry]

I should be at the Gympie Shoot, unfortunately I have to fill in for the 2IC so pulling a Sickie and coming up earlier Friday is out of the question. Hopefully I'll arrive late Friday night.

The Saluki's look a nice bit of Kit but I have not had a long hard look at them.

Am happy to sit and talk about this Daryl, keep me informed in the mean while if I don't catch up with you. I am hoping to receive this Bow in a few weeks but I just don't know. I was planning to bring it over for you to look at. I want to get down to the Hinterland 3DAAA Club shoot on the 9th Sept to see Shrek, I'd love to have the Bow by then but something tells me not

As for Bows like these Bio Composites, until we can get confirmation the only Modern Material used in them is infact the Glue, then they shoot in Recurve. I personnely am not in the least bit bothered. As for the Traditional / Primitive Divion definition I see no reason to change wording just now. As always I am open minded and willing to compromise or change my thinking with proof and a convincing case

regards Jacko

[GrahameA]

Hi Perry
Some video of a chap shooting 240m with a Grozer. You definitely need to shoot flight next year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3JCzypf ... re=related

[temudjin]

Hi Perry,

as long as they have the bow in stock you should get it in less than two weeks - all of mine came in less than that - so here's hoping. The anticipation is a killer though - almost like that first date feeling. Now that was a long time ago, wasn't it?

I had my kids last night and with getting dinner made and lunches and washing uniforms, no photos sorry - I know, lousy excuse but there you go. Maybe tonight?

On the rules side I'm fairly new to this so I'm not sure my opinion is that well informed but here it is anyway...

Personally I shoot to improve on my best rather than compete with others (yes, I really am that bad a shot!!) and I enjoy the comradeship of like minded folk and the social nature of trad shoots. So, I don't much care what class I'm in. Also, there don't seem to be too many historical or selfbows bows at the shoots I have attended - I see Perry regularly and Jim Mason and a few others but not many. Most people seem to shoot "modern" style constructed recurves and longbows and very few shoot "around the handle". I do love to see other folk shooting unusual and different bows as I'm a firm believer in variety and diversity. Maybe when I get to be a better shot, then shooting against others with similar bows will become more important to me.

In the meantime I'm having fun and enjoy being a little "odd" in my choice of gear.

[perry]

Tom you are not Odd with your choice of Gear, look at it this way - your somewhat of a Pack Leader when comes to these Grozer Bio Composites. No worries with the Photo's, have Kids myself so understand the time they consume - worth every minute.

A few years back the Victorian Trad Shooters had a real thing going on with their Fibreglass Horsebows, I'm told there was a strong contingent. Not sure now though, I'm sure Roadie would know if they are stil out there Shooting

There would be a core of 6 or 7 regular Selfbow Shooters that attend the Trad Shoots. Plenty of Folks out there have them but prefer their Glass Powered Bows, fair enough.

No word on the Bow yet, just an email verifying my order. I asked for a 40#to 45# Bow, gotta look after my Shoulder these Days some Days the pain is quite disabling.

Grahame, I am not sure I want to subject any of my Bows to the stress's of Flight Arrows, Light Strings etc. I would consider it if I made a purpose built Bow. I shall have to brush up on the Rules.

regards Jacko

[temudjin]

Perry,

OK here are some photos - just need to work out how to get them onto the post!

OK, I've made the images smaller to fit the web requirement and I've attached them... I think.

So I will submit and see what happens - hopefully all works OK.

[perry]

Excellent Tom, thanks for posting. I was close, very close to buying the Assyrian, I liked the forward handle, make for a more stable and forgiving Bow, particularly if you compare it to your Scythian but I decided that it may be twitchy to shoot anyway as it was a little short when compared to the longer Chinese, Magyar and Mongol Bows. Each review I read said the Assyrian is his fastest Bow. I chose the Magyar because of the 3 longer Bows it was flattest through the Grip and at around 62" ntn should be nice and forgiving. I did like the Chinese also at 65" ntn but every review I read on them suggested they had less Cast than the Hungarian.. Unbraced Profile was a little Scary aswell. Being used to Stringfollow Selfbows or a Modern Recurve, the unbraced Profile of these Bows is something else.

regards Jacko

[Chase N. Nocks]

Yes the Assyian was definitely my favorite bow. Loved the forward handle for the looks and practical reasons that Perry mentions. Also thought it might be a little more forgiving to my increasingly arthritic hand.

At least I have a shortish draw. Generally about 27 1/2 to 28 inches. Or if there are some girls around 28 1/16.

Thanks for posting Tom.
Cheers
Troy

[perry]

Seems I have a bit of a wait , just lifted this from the Hun Archery's Website, loses something in the translation but I think I got the gist of it

Dear Customers,
Csaba Grozer's workshop is under improvement, so now you can buy just base bows!
Grozer sold out all of the "Biocomposite" bows, because of he created the new type of "Biocomposite" bow. The new one is more heavy-duty, not sensitive to temperature and faster, with better properties!
The manufacture has been started, and now is continuing. You can buy them in the next 2-3 weeks, because there will be numerous pieces in the store.
Whos ordered the former model, they may waiting for the new type, which will be transport in the same price, or to ask their money! The new Biocomposit bows will be a bit expensive, than the former.
Horn bows will complete the end of November!

Tarvei, Kassai and Saluki bows, arrows and all of other products can be undisturbed order, just Grozer's Biocomposite bows late about 2weeks, because of the changing!