Recurve limbs: Wood/fibreglass vs carbon

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Brumbies Country
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Recurve limbs: Wood/fibreglass vs carbon

#1 Post by Brumbies Country » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:54 pm

Last few months I have alternated shooting a Hoyt Dorado with a home built self-bow and enjoyed both of them. I enjoy the smooth shooting of the Dorado and am happy with its speed. Hoyt don't talk much about the materials used in the Dorado's limb construction but it looks to be a maple core and fibre glass. I also own a Samick setup with Extreme (carbon foam) limbs much the same weight as the Dorado ( mid-thirties poundage). Can't say personally that I shoot any better with the carbon foam limbs, in fact a little worse. The Dorado is 60" in length and the Samick 68"; longer recurves are preferred by target archers so the Samick set-up should shoot better for me. I read with interest Excelpoint's use of Hoyt Vector limbs on a Gamemaster 2 and the good performance he got. I'm not familiar with the material Vector limbs are made of.

My question is it's apparent carbon limbs are faster that wood/glass but are they less forgiving of errors of form comparitive to wood/fibreglass.

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Re: Recurve limbs: Wood/fibreglass vs carbon

#2 Post by GrahameA » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:08 pm

Hi Simon.
Brumbies Country wrote:Last few months I have alternated shooting a Hoyt Dorado with a home built self-bow and enjoyed both of them. I enjoy the smooth shooting of the Dorado and am happy with its speed. Hoyt don't talk much about the materials used in the Dorado's limb construction but it looks to be a maple core and fibre glass. I also own a Samick setup with Extreme (carbon foam) limbs much the same weight as the Dorado ( mid-thirties poundage). Can't say personally that I shoot any better with the carbon foam limbs, in fact a little worse. The Dorado is 60" in length and the Samick 68"; longer recurves are preferred by target archers so the Samick set-up should shoot better for me. I read with interest Excelpoint's use of Hoyt Vector limbs on a Gamemaster 2 and the good performance he got. I'm not familiar with the material Vector limbs are made of.

My question is it's apparent carbon limbs are faster that wood/glass but are they less forgiving of errors of form comparitive to wood/fibreglass.
I do not know an answer. Yesterday I was using my newest Target Bow - Midas (Cartel) Riser with Samick Carbon Limbs. It shoots faster than the timber cored limbs. The comment is often made about a bow being more forging than another however how do you measure forgiveness? I have absolutely no idea.

The Midas/Samick combo shoots a faster arrow giving arrows having a flatter trajectory and thus are more forgiving of me and my poor distance estimation in unmarked field - for any given distance the trajectory being flatter reduces the amount high or low I will be when I estimate the distance wrong.

Of my target bows I prefer to shoot the Midas/Samick the most - that could be due to it being the newest. I still enjoy shooting the Nishizawa and the Marksman both of which have Carbon laminated limbs. The Yamhas and the Hoyt all have timber core limbs and apart from a velocity difference (mainly due to Bow draw weight) I am not aware of any difference between them that I would put down to limb material. (The variation is more likely due to design differences.)

On the personal side it is cheaper to make limbs that are Bamboo and Fibreglass as compared with Limbs that are Bamboo and Carbon Fibre. On that basis alone I do not see myself making any Carbo laminated limbs in the near future. However, I would probably opt for Carbon Laminated limbs if the cost of the materials was close.
Grahame.
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Re: Recurve limbs: Wood/fibreglass vs carbon

#3 Post by Brumbies Country » Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:40 pm

Really good to hear from you Grahame. You have made me rethink a bit. There are other variables. When I think about it a bit further, the riser on the Dorado really suits me. Now the purists would tell you that you only hold the bow with a light three fingers grip. I actually do that but somehow that specific wooden grip of the Dorado appeals to me aesthetically and it just feels good to shoot it. Your positive experience with carbon limbs has caused me to rethink a bit.

Simon

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Re: Recurve limbs: Wood/fibreglass vs carbon

#4 Post by GrahameA » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:21 am

Hi Simon.
Brumbies Country wrote:.... You have made me rethink a bit. There are other variables. ... that specific wooden grip of the Dorado appeals to me aesthetically and it just feels good to shoot it. Your positive experience with carbon limbs has caused me to rethink a bit.
My experience suggest that individual Bow design has more of an effect on me rather than the bow material. I would suggest that a target bow (or a bow with target heritage) from any of the big manufacturers will be good. They just do not make bad bows and choosing between them can be a hard decision.

Lots of people modify their handgrips - you just need to get it suit you (and be inherently be of good design).
Grahame.
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Re: Recurve limbs: Wood/fibreglass vs carbon

#5 Post by Brumbies Country » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:57 am

GrahameA wrote:Hi Simon.

My experience suggest that individual Bow design has more of an effect on me rather than the bow material. I would suggest that a target bow (or a bow with target heritage) from any of the big manufacturers will be good. They just do not make bad bows and choosing between them can be a hard decision.

Lots of people modify their handgrips - you just need to get it suit you (and be inherently be of good design).
Yes, I'd agree Grahame. I guess two things spring to mind here. The recurves of manufacturers of standing are invariably going to shoot considerably better than I am and it's up to me to move someway towards the potential they offer. The other thing is so much of this sport is psychological. If you really believe in a particular bow the resulting confidence is worth alot. Confidence along with good form gets you along way in this game.

Simon

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Re: Recurve limbs: Wood/fibreglass vs carbon

#6 Post by excelpoint » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:05 pm

Simon, what I have found with the limbs I have played with is this. Without doubt all the Carbon foam limbs I have owned and shot have had a bit nicer feel in the draw over the wood core (both maple and boo) with comparable draw weights. They seem to build their weight earlier in the draw cycle. Mine have all shown this at around 12-15" of draw as apposed to my woodies which tend to build their weight around the 20" mark. The Border HEX 5 H (foam-carbon) were extraordinary in the fact as you drew past about 28" they actually felt like they let off in weight.

All my Carbon foam limbs were quicker then my woodies in the same weight with the same arrow, anywhere from 3fps up to 7fps on the Borders.

I recently sold my Borders as I just could not shoot them as well as my Vectors. Maybe for me they were just not as forgiving as others of my not so perfect form. My Vectors which are carbon/foam seem to be the limb I like the most. They are very smooth (not as smooth as the Borders), have a good turn of speed with heavy arrows and seem to be quite forgiving. I have had them on my Sky Riser, GM 2, Hoyt TD-3 Warf and a TT Recon risers and they perform just as good on all of them.

I have a set of Hoyt FX carbon/foam limbs (the ones that started my love of foam cores) that are faster, as smooth but not as stable on all risers.

I have a set of Sky Glass over Carbon with foam core Longbow limbs coming for my Sky riser, so i am keen to see how these go compared to my recurve limbs. They will be my first set of Carbon/foam longbow limbs.

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Re: Recurve limbs: Wood/fibreglass vs carbon

#7 Post by jwillis » Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:35 am

excelpoint, man that was a nice review! Way to go. Thanks for the information. Jim
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Re: Recurve limbs: Wood/fibreglass vs carbon

#8 Post by GrahameA » Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:22 am

Hi Excel.
excelpoint wrote:Simon, what I have found with the limbs I have played with is this. Without doubt all the Carbon foam limbs I have owned and shot have had a bit nicer feel in the draw over the wood core (both maple and boo) with comparable draw weights. They seem to build their weight earlier in the draw cycle. Mine have all shown this at around 12-15" of draw as apposed to my woodies which tend to build their weight around the 20" mark. The Border HEX 5 H (foam-carbon) were extraordinary in the fact as you drew past about 28" they actually felt like they let off in weight.
Is the increase in draw "weight earlier in the cycle" a consequence of the Carbon lamination or a result of the limb shape?
excelpoint wrote:Maybe for me they were just not as forgiving as others of my not so perfect form.
When you say "forgiving" what do you mean?
excelpoint wrote:I have had them on my Sky Riser, GM 2, Hoyt TD-3 Warf and a TT Recon risers and they perform just as good on all of them.
I have used my Samicks on a couple of WARFs and they now reside only on my Midas riser. When they were on the WARF in the highest configuration they were giving 50 lb at 28" whereas on the Midas they produce a 35lb at the moment. I was happy to use them on either.

My experience suggests a couple of things:
. the same limbs can give a different draw weight as you vary the brand of riser, the geometry of all risers is not the same
. the force draw curve can vary for the same limb material as the shape of the limb varies, which would expected.

I am unsure as to the proportion of the different "characteristics" of a limb are due to the limb material or the limb design?
Grahame.
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Re: Recurve limbs: Wood/fibreglass vs carbon

#9 Post by excelpoint » Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:21 am

I would think that it is a combination of things as all the limbs I have are different in profile. I think it also has a lot to do with the layup used and the type of foam in the core.

As for the Borders been less forgiving it just seemed that the result of poor form on these resulted in bigger group, worse arrow flight as apposed to the Vectors and FX limbs etc. It is hard to quantify with data as it is purely subjective but after shooting them as much as I have on different risers, that is the impression they left.

Different risers certainly give different weights. As an example my 17" Morrison riser added 5# over my 17" Border riser, then of course riser length comes into it such as the 15" Tradtech Onyx riser added 2# where is my 21" Warf dropped 2# over my 17" Border.

There was nothing scientific about my testing, just purley based on how they felt and shot. The only testing equipment used was a Chrono.

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Re: Recurve limbs: Wood/fibreglass vs carbon

#10 Post by excelpoint » Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:02 am

jwillis wrote:excelpoint, man that was a nice review! Way to go. Thanks for the information. Jim
Thanks Jim. My finding are just my personal feelings about the limbs. I have had my Gamemaster 2 with Hoyt Vectors out side by side with my mates new Hoyt Buffalo which pulls about the same weight. The buffalo has wood cores. Drawing them both side by side you can feel the difference in the draw cycle with the Vectors seeming to be building weight early then stay constant all the way through while the buffalo limbs seem to feel a bit "soft" early on but have a noticeable build in weight later in the draw, if that makes sense.

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Re: Recurve limbs: Wood/fibreglass vs carbon

#11 Post by Brumbies Country » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:08 am

excelpoint wrote:Simon, what I have found with the limbs I have played with is this. Without doubt all the Carbon foam limbs I have owned and shot have had a bit nicer feel in the draw over the wood core (both maple and boo) with comparable draw weights. They seem to build their weight earlier in the draw cycle. Mine have all shown this at around 12-15" of draw as apposed to my woodies which tend to build their weight around the 20" mark. The Border HEX 5 H (foam-carbon) were extraordinary in the fact as you drew past about 28" they actually felt like they let off in weight.

All my Carbon foam limbs were quicker then my woodies in the same weight with the same arrow, anywhere from 3fps up to 7fps on the Borders.

I have a set of Sky Glass over Carbon with foam core Longbow limbs coming for my Sky riser, so i am keen to see how these go compared to my recurve limbs. They will be my first set of Carbon/foam longbow limbs.

Thanks Excelpoint

Apologies for my late reply. I was shooting in a two day competition over the weekend then getting home and doing the normal weekend work on a small property. I too thank you for what is a very comprehensive answer. When I saw yoor original post re the Vector limbs I was really interested but couldn't see reference to Vector limbs on usual suppliers websites such as Abbey and Bensons. They sounded really good but could be they are a superceded limbs. Interesting your comment relative the Borders because they seem to have a big reputation among some. Sky glass over carbon with foam core longbow limbs coming for your Sky riser will be really interesting and I really look forward to hearing how you find them.

Simon

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Re: Recurve limbs: Wood/fibreglass vs carbon

#12 Post by excelpoint » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:35 pm

No worries mate. The Vectors are an older model from around 2004-5 I think. Grear set of limbs if you can find some for sale.

I honestly think the Borders are worth of their reputation but just not in my hands. I will give you a run doen on the Sky limbs when they arrive. Still a few weeks away though.

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