different styles of longbow.

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pommy chris · #1 Post by **pommy chris** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:57 pm

i was wondering if any you guys have shot with a longbow constructed in the way of the old war bows.i.e. a longbow that has one continous limb with no handle come riser section in the middle.just recently i had the chance to have a few shots on one. of the guy who runs our club .which he calls a full compass bow.and over my bickerstaffe it felt smoother and a better cast.

Len · #2 Post by **Len** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:53 am

Hi Chris, thats how I make my bows. A stiffer handle section is supposed to aid accuracy but a bow made the medieval way to 'come round compass', gives you more power because the whole bow is working and also allows a longer draw.

morgan · #3 Post by **morgan** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:58 pm

To put the cat among the pidgeons, when I think of a longbow that is what i think of.

Richard · #4 Post by **Richard** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:30 pm

Hi Chris,
a couple of pics of some of my longbow collection. The first is a 40lb selfbow that I could'nt quite decide whether to make into a compass bow or not, and the second is a 60lb tri laminate compass bow. You can see the difference when they are laid side by side.
It did feel a bit strange at first shooting the compass bow, as the feel of the bow bending under your hand is slightly worrying. They do make such an nice arc when under full draw though

Len · #5 Post by **Len** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:39 pm

Lovely longbows there Richard. Is the self bow yew ?

Richard · #6 Post by **Richard** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 5:21 pm

Unfortunately not.

It is made from Lancewood from somewhere around the Roma region. It is a very good wood for a D section bow, at least the log we got is.
I can just pretend it is yew until I eventually get my hot little hands on some.

pommy chris · #7 Post by **pommy chris** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:06 am

cheers for the replys lads.nice pics aswell.

Dennis La Varenne · #8 Post by **Dennis La Varenne** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:49 am

Pommie Chris and others,

The 'tri-lam' bow of Richard's is one of Pip Bickerstaffe's bows. I have two of them and both are full compass bows. I have made quite a few of my own which bent through the handle also - some from Yew.

I don't hold with the idea that a full compass bow is any more 'accurate' to shoot than a rigid handle bow. Accuracy is in the skill of the shooter, not the bow. I disagree with Pip Bickerstaffe on this one point. Nor have I felt more handshock in a full compass bow than a rigid handle bow, so long as the tips were not clubbish - and that principle holds for both designs.

I have found however, that the full compass bow tends to take a little less set than the rigid handle bows because the bending load on the belly is spread over a longer working limb, ie the whole belly, rather than the whole belly minus the rigid handle section. It isn't much, but it can be anything from 1/2 to 1 inch less set than a rigid handle bow depending upon good tillering - at least in the ELBs I have made.

My early ELBs were all made after the American interpretation and had rigid handles. All of them took up to 2 inches of set depending upon length. Later, when I let them bend into the handle area, the set was often less than 1 inch and in two cases of staves with some reflex (one built in and the other natural), held 1/2 inch of that reflex after shooting in.

Richard is right about the queer feeling of a bendy handle bow at first, but you get used to it and don't notice it after a while. And they certainly don't kick if the tips are kept to 1/2 inch or less diameter below the horns.

I have attached a couple of my ELBs, one self Yew, the second Hickory backed Lemonwood, and the third is a self Osage ELB. All are 6 footers.

Dennis La Varenne

Richard · #9 Post by **Richard** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:17 am

The tri lam bow is actually one I made at a bow building workshop at my old club in the UK.
I agree with you that it is down to the skill of the archer as to whether a particular design of bow is more accurate or not. But I personally believe that it is slightly harder to shoot a compass bow more accurately, as you are basically aiming your arrow from a moving part of the bow, instead of having a rigid handle area. But again this comes back to the skill of the archer, and not the bow design.
I have also noticed that the degree of set is reduced with a compass bow, for the reasons you have outlined. My lemonwood/hickory bow seems to be the worst in this regard.
Was the yew much harder to work as a wood than the osage, or lemonwood hickory?. I have heard many people tell of the relative difficulty of working yew as opposed to other bow woods. I am aiming at a yew bow eventually, but I think i need more practice before I potentially waste a perfectly good bit of yew

Dennis La Varenne · #10 Post by **Dennis La Varenne** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:03 pm

Richard,

Noted that your tri-lam bow is of your own building, not Pip's. You will understand my error.

I have not found any particular wood to be any more difficult than any other. They are all equally difficult/easy to work with depending upon your technique. Yew is much harder and denser than you would expect for a 'softwood' and Osage is very hard and dense, but responds well to rasps as does Yew.

I don't use drawknives because I have not bothered to learn. I couldn't see the point. Rasps are easier to use when grain is curly and a breeze when it is straight.

The Lemonwood bow was built using the Perry reflexing method where I backed it with a 3mm strip of Hickory while the Lemonwood stave was reflexed by 5 inches. After shooting in, it retained about 1/2 of reflex and shot brilliantly, much quicker than the 10lbs heavier very good quality Yew bow. Before I backed it, it was a self Lemonwood bow of 45lbs with a huge string follow and 1 1/4 inches wide. After reflexing and sinking on the tiller, it was narrowed to 1 1/8" to get its weight down to 62lbs @ 26". True to Lemonwood, it did not fret.

The little 50lb Osage bow was backed with Kangaroo rawhide because the growth rings were so tissue thin they could not be followed on the back. There was barely a straight section of 2 inches without humps and dips for its whole length, but it shot nicely without great speed compared to the other two.

The Osage and the Yew bows took 1.5 - 2 inches of set as I recall from a 26 inch draw.

I would hesitate to Perry reflex a Yew ELB, but not an Osage ELB. However, and Osage bow would finish up very skinny for draw weight if it were so reflexed. However, building in large reflexes is pretty much entirely lost by the time the bow is shot in, and unless the belly wood has a very high Modulus of Rupture figure, there is no advantage because the wood will fail and chrysal.

The point is, if you put reflex into an ELB stave before tillering, make sure the wood is very compression resistant. The advantage is that if it works, you end up with little or no set which is always an advantage for an ELB. Lemonwood is remarkable in this regard when backed because it is almost impossible to fret for some reason, but very ordinary as a selfbow as I found with my stave.

By the way Richard, that Lancewood with the sap left on makes a very nice looking ELB. I have done the same thing with Osage and leaving the full thickness of sapwood on. When it ages, Osage heartwood looks about the same colouring as your Lancewood. What is the botanical name for it do you know?

Dennis La Varenne

ed · #11 Post by ed » Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:01 pm

excellent looking bows guys, inspiring and another item on my to-do list

Richard · #12 Post by **Richard** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:46 pm

Dennis,
you have 'lost' me with the 'perry reflexing method'

Could you explain or point me in the direction of an explanation please.

Dennis La Varenne · #13 Post by **Dennis La Varenne** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:40 pm

Richard,

The Perry Reflexing method was invented by the US flight shooter, Dan Perry.

It is a method of putting reflex into a bowstave by gluing a backing layer on a belly stave after having first tillered the belly stave to be as even as possible at around brace height.

The back of the (board) stave is left dead flat as a gluing surface.

The belly stave, once tillered correctly to bend evenly at brace height, is reflexed to something aproaching 4 or more inches (my Hickory Lemonwood bow was 5 inches) and held there while the backing layer is glued in position.

After curing, the backing layer holds it in heavy reflex. The draw weight is prodigious at this stage of course, but is sunk to a suitable draw weight with later tillering.

The theory of this design is that the limbs are being trained to store energy during an additional phase of bending which is not there in a straight stave - the part from reflexed unbraced to braced height, which may be an additional inch or more in an ELB.

I would emphasise that I would be very hesitant to use this technique on just any wood. Lemonwood is a proven performer for this technique because of its very high resistance to fretting under very heavy loads. Hickory is another. I do not know if any Australian woods will tolerate the technique because I have not tried any yet.

I read about it in TBB Vol III (I think it was) and it certainly did work on my attempt to a degree I found astonishing for a Lemonwood ELB. It held straight - just a little over 1/2 inch of reflex.

Caution: The design was really intended for flatbows and works well on them. Because of the high stack of ELBs, it may not be suitable for all woods used for this design because the belly surface is so far away from the neutral plane and thus suffers a very heavy compression load. My attempt on an ELB was an unexpected success.

One further thing, if a bow is made from the usually heavier Australian woods in this conformation, the bow would almost certainly be fairly spindly for draw weight. One Australian wood from Queensland which I have used successfully for ELBs is Red Ash (Alphitonia excelsa) which seems to have a similar resistance to fretting as Lemonwood and not particularly heavy, but, like Lemonwood, tends to take more of a set than denser woods. It may be a possibility for this design.

Dennis La Varenne

greybeard · #14 Post by **greybeard** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:17 pm

Brisbane Rainforest Action & Information Network Rainforest Plants of the Brisbane Area (Queensland, Australia)

Botanical Name: Harpullia pendula (Sapindaceae).
Common Name: (Qld.) Tulip wood, tulip lance wood, black tulip (wood), dolls eyes, mogum-mogum.
Distribution: Endemic to Australia, ranging from the Bellinger River, NSW to Mulgrave River, near Cairns, North Queensland.
Habitat: Sub-tropical rainforest and dry rainforest.
Form: A small to medium sized tree attaining a height of 20 metres.
Leaves: Compound, alternate, pinnate, consisting of 4-8 leaflets, leaflets glossy light green above and below. Leaflets thin, terminating in a short blunt point at the tip, 5-10 cm long.
Flower: Greenish-yellow, 5 petals in axillary narrow panicles, sometimes as long as the leaves. Flowering period, September to December.
Fruit: A two lobed capsule, yellow or reddish each papery lobe 13-18 mm diameter containing up to two shining dark brown or black oval seeds about 13 mm long. Fruit ripe, September to January.
Garden Use: The species is widely cultivated as an ornamental shade tree. Hardy in rather dry conditions and does not mind full sun.
Edible? No.
Propagation: Seed germinates well in a few weeks after soaking first.
Comments: An excellent turnery and cabinet timber, the dark centre is highly figured with dark brown bands and pale or yellowish areas. Fine grained, tough, heavy and very durable.

Richard · #15 Post by **Richard** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:40 am

Thanks for the information on the perry method Dennis. I had forgotten about the bowyers bibles I had gathering dust on the bookshelves I'll have a look in them. Although I do seem to remember that they manage to make simple instructions excessively complicated( maybe it's just me).

From the way you describe it, I would be very hesitant to use this method on a D section bow, although I may try it at some time in the future.
Looks like you have been doing some 'lancewood' research Daryl, I think I'll be having a wander around the property armed with that bit of info!

. Once it stops raining anyway.

Anna · #16 Post by **Anna** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:22 pm

OK now I'm confused....I thought the lancewood in question was also known as coachwood, and is the northern version of brigalow. Some sort of dryland acacia?

perry · #17 Post by **perry** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:47 pm

Think your confused now wait till I'm finished .

The working handle or circular tillered [ Compass ] is my favourite bow , I just keep coming back to them .

My luck with Lance wood is mixed , Seems to me that the Lancewood from inland Sth West Qld id not as good a bow wood as the Lancewood from western NSW . Blokes loke from HVTA swear by the Lancewood they cut in western NSW . Cliff Turpin has made some tremendous bows from Qld lancewood though

I get top results with Compass bows in either a wide flat bow limb profile or narrow 74" design shallow d section using Brigalow - I have never heard of Brigalow being called Lance wood though where I cut my Brigalow , Lancewood does grow in large stands in nearby sand hills .

regards Perry

Glenn Newell · #18 Post by **Glenn Newell** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:31 pm

Anna, Coachwood is a rainforest hardwood from Southern Queensland and New South Wales. Very often different local names are given to the same tree. The other day I wa at Blackbutt and the property owner said the he had been cutting mountain ironbark for fence post but that was a name I had never run across before even though I have spent many years in that country...Glenn...

longbowinfected · #19 Post by **longbowinfected** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:18 am

Coachwood was used as a lightish but strong timber for coaches.
It has a caramel smell when cut or wet.
Beautiful timber.
Remember the old cars with swirly timber inlays?
Most times this was Coachwood.

Kevin

Glenn Newell · #20 Post by **Glenn Newell** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:40 pm

Coachwood is a beautiful timber, I saw a beautiful recurve Howard O'Connel made with a coachwood riser and coachwood under the laminations under clear glass, very nice bow...Glenn...

Coach · #21 Post by **Coach** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:54 pm

Coachwood is a beautiful timber

With "Coach" in it , it's bound to be beautiful

Mick Smith · #22 Post by **Mick Smith** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:03 pm

I believe the stocks of the venerable SMLE .303 service rifle as used by Australian troops in both world wars, were usually made of coachwood.

Just an irrelevant piece of info.

Mick

Dennis La Varenne · #23 Post by **Dennis La Varenne** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:56 pm

Richard,

Perry reflexing is not something you would readily do to an ELB or similar bow with a high cambered belly.

Nevertheless, one never knows what an outcome can be if one does not try. My attempt was just a speculative - let's see what happens - thing. But, it worked very well indeed. Its present owner told me some years ago that it had started to take a little bit of set . . . just. He is a man who was never gentle with his bows. He did not abuse them, but he well used them a lot. Not a bit scared of practice.

Mick,

They were.

I am a bit of a student of the SMLE and have more than one. Coachwood was used I believe because it was far less prone to warping under humid conditions (???New Guinea) than the imported European Walnut which was used up until WWI and a little while after.

The Coachwood on my 'traditional' SMLE rifles does not seem to take knocks very well and bruises fairly easily. Walnut is better in this regard. But, resistance to warping is more important in a rifle where the wood extends the full length of the barrel above and below.

But, this is not really trad archery.

Dennis La Varenne