Shooters offer assistance;

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greybeard
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Shooters offer assistance;

#1 Post by greybeard » Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:22 pm

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-15/a ... lp/8444136

Are there opportunities for bow hunters to get in on the action or are governments of the opinion bow hunting is not an effective/efficient method of pest control?

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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perry
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Re: Shooters offer assistance;

#2 Post by perry » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:37 pm

I believe the Shooting Sport's are under attack from Government all around Australia and the likes of the Green's and nutjob organisation's like PETA. Even the ABC has been caught telling Lies several times recently reporting on Firearm's and Shooter's. Bowhunters are not immune from being labeled as Firearms owners are by a biased Media and misguided Anti's.

These Anti's are trying to force Social change through Lies and deceit. The current Qld Govt will not talk honestly with Hunters and have openly expressed this in their current campaign against Shooter's illustrated by our deputy Premier Jackie Trad in a recent Youtube Clip trying to rally support for the National Firearms agreement via a Video full of Lies and misleading information surrounding the National Firearm's Agreement. They have also totally rejected lobbying attempt's to allow Hunting in Qld State Forest's and rejected reopening Duck and Quail Season's.

On top of this access to Land to Hunt Deer near major population area's is very difficult to get unless you are Family or a prominent Local. I have Rusa Deer roaming freely 10 minutes from Home and have buckley's of getting permission to Hunt Private Land.

My local State Forests are teaming with Deer and other Feral's and our State Government has a set against the Shooting Sport's. NSW and especially Victoria have long standing Permit system's in place that allow Hunter's access to their State Forest's. They have an outstanding Safety record. Hunting and the Permit's make a lot of money for NSW and Victoria economy, not just in Government Coffer's but also in secondary spending for Equipment, Fuel, Food and other discretionary spending.

The Queensland Government needs to get over their leftard looney Bambi Syndrome and allow Hunter's access to State Forest's under a Permit System to Hunt all manor of Feral's and Pest Species and reintroduce Duck and Quail Season's. The LNP also have a proven track record of being Hunter unfriendly. I can not see Qld ever getting a State Forest Hunting Permit System up and running

regards Perry
"To my deep morticication my father once said to me, 'You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family.' "

- Charles Darwin

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greybeard
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Re: Shooters offer assistance;

#3 Post by greybeard » Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:13 pm

Hi Perry,

Could it possibly be that the recreational hunter is the problem and not Government policy?
perry wrote:....... I have Rusa Deer roaming freely 10 minutes from Home and have buckley's of getting permission to Hunt Private Land.........
Why do you have buckley’s? Has the owner had problems with previous hunters?

Government documents do in fact state some of the benefits of recreational hunting.

https://www.daf.qld.gov.au/__data/asset ... gy_web.pdf

“Hone et al. (2010) have used modelling techniques to estimate the percentage of a population that needs to be removed annually to stop the population increasing.

There is significant variation depending on conditions, but the estimates give some guidance in determining what percentage of the population should be removed.

The model shows that the proportion of animals to remove each year to stop population growth is 34% for fallow deer, 46% for rusa deer and 49% for chital. (The model does not cover red deer.)

Removal of mature stags alone will not adequately limit population growth.

Feral deer are highly mobile and may graze and browse across a large area. Control efforts are most successful when they are conducted cooperatively with all landholders in an area.”

Some issues with recreational hunting;
Strat 4.jpg
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“Today, feral goats are present over much of Australia, with greatest numbers being concentrated in the semi-arid pastoral areas of Western Australia, western New South Wales, southern South Australia, and central and south-western Queensland.

Australia has at least 2.3 million feral goats, with estimates of up to 240 000 feral goats in Queensland.”

“A population of goats is capable of doubling in size every 1.6 years in the absence of death caused by human control activities.

To prevent populations from increasing, approximately 35% of the population must be removed each year.”

Maintaining a zero growth goat population in Queensland requires that 84,000 goats need to be culled each year which means 1,615 per week.

Australia wide 15,480 goats need to be culled each week.

Pigs.

https://www.daf.qld.gov.au/__data/asset ... ig-PSA.pdf

Trapping is considered to be the safest and most effective control option.

Hunting is of limited value because of firearms restrictions and the problems of using dogs.

Tax payers money used to fund the NSW Game Council.
Game Council Funding.jpg
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Recreational hunting in NSW: claims v facts; interesting reading.

http://invasives.org.au/wp-content/uplo ... vfacts.pdf

Another problem for the government is drawing the line between ethical hunting and animal cruelty.

Evidence would suggest that recreational hunting does little to reduce feral game numbers.

Perhaps if hunters got off their backsides and as a group formulated a policy outlining the positive benefits of recreational hunting in state forests this then could become the first step in opening an ongoing dialogue with the state government.

Remember; if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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perry
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Re: Shooters offer assistance;

#4 Post by perry » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:18 pm

Daryl, a great many of us are off our Backsides and many submissions have been made by individuals, Hunting Club's and Hunting Organisation's. The Government outright refuse to talk about a permit system such as Victoria and NSW and fly into a flap when reinstating Qld's Duck and Quail Season is mentioned.

I have no chance of getting permission locally as the district is overrun by Nimby's and Anti's. As you are aware gaining access to local Property's has been well nigh impossible for Decades as POACHERS have ruined things for legitimate honest Hunter's and the fact many Town's - Kilcoy for example - have a Culture of local access only. Many rural Property's are also now surrounded by Hobby Farms who are instantly on the Phone to the Police whinging if a Shooters is on a neighboring Property. I have Shot with Bow's and Firearm's on local Property's a few times but encroachment of Hobby Farms, whinging Nimby's, encroaching Suburbia and the Property Owners Dying has put a stop to it.

It only takes the actions of one POACHER or MORON to be reported in the Media and enormous Damage is done. A Hundred Shooters can do the right thing for Decades and the Media won't run a good news Story. Many remember the Criminals and POACHER'S deeds though and punish the Law Abiding ! I have lost Hunting Property's because a D!@#head shot up a Water Tank or cut Fences so the Cocky decides to stop all Shooters / Hunters because of the actions of a D!@#Head

Sadly I can't look up references for you to back up what I am saying here because I am about to go to bed so I can have a sleep before a 5.5 hour drive for a Hunt in a few hour's time. Thanks for posting the above, I have read most of them previously

My local member is Patron of the Murrumba Pistol Club and is on the record as being supportive of Shooter's yet the Bastard who is also our 3rd Police Minister in as many Year's Mark Ryan was out in the Media last week pushing the Labor Party's Anti Position on Firearm's and their agenda under the National Firearm's agreement. He has also carried on the previous Police Minister's foul work by putting a stop to Junior Shooter's Licences being approved and refusing to renew Farmer's Handgun Permit's, many of whom have had a Handgun Licence for 30 or 40 Years.

The former Police Minister Bill Byrne is on record saying a Handgun has no place on a Farm and compared Farmers to Wild West Outlaw's ??????? The tone of Mark Ryan's responses to my letter's to him has changed for the worse since he became Police Minister and he does not respond personally like he did. He has staffer's do it for him and rubber Stamp his signature. He has sold out Hunters, be they Bowhunter's or Firearm Hunter's

Effective Feral Animal control is not a simple thing as the tables above illustrate. A coordinated long term plan needs to be put together where all party's are consulted. If Government won't engage with Hunter's Organisation's that's not going to happen. Hunters/ Voter's need to put a Dunny Brush right through the Labor Party and the LNP and get rid of them because they are not interested in working for Hunters as they fear there is no Votes in it for them.

There must be more People willing to respond to Thread's such as this. Good Night, I predict a successful Hunt after that Stag I have been chasing for the last 4 Years or at the least bring Home a Esky full of Chevron !

regards Perry
"To my deep morticication my father once said to me, 'You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family.' "

- Charles Darwin

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GrahameA
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Re: Shooters offer assistance;

#5 Post by GrahameA » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:12 am

Morning Perry and Daryl.

My $0:02.

Hunting as a means of Feral Animal Control has several "challenges". Leading them it has poor media in that it has difficulties in getting its message across .. or even clearly annuciating its message.
Grahame.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.

"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.

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greybeard
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Re: Shooters offer assistance;

#6 Post by greybeard » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:23 pm

To quote Wiki;

“Queensland is the second largest state in Australia.

It contains 472 separate protected areas with a total land area of 69,388 km² (4.02% of the state’s area). 223 of these are National parks,

which is the highest number of any Australian state or territory, totaling 65,871 km² (3.81% of the state’s area). Seven others are Scientific National Parks, totaling 522 km² (0.03% of the state’s area).”


Personally I believe that the 4.02% [Queensland's protected land area] be free from hunting. If feral animals become a problem in particular area perhaps it is best left to the professionals to carry out the eradication process.
GrahameA wrote:.....Hunting as a means of Feral Animal Control has several "challenges". Leading them it has poor media in that it has difficulties in getting its message across .. or even clearly annuciating its message.
The RSPCA is probably the biggest hurdle for recreational hunters, in particular bow hunters.

From the RSPCA website;

RSPCA Policy C10 Hunting of animals for sport

“10.1 RSPCA Australia is opposed to the hunting of any animal for sport as it causes unnecessary injury, pain, suffering, distress or death to the animals involved.

10.2 RSPCA Australia advocates the use of alternatives to the hunting of animals for sport such as target shooting and drag hunting, where dogs chase a non-animal lure or scent.”


What is the RSPCA's view on bow hunting?

“Bow hunting is a type of archery where bows and arrows are used to hunt wild animals.

The RSPCA is opposed to bow hunting because even when carried out by a competent marksman, bow hunting does not result in a humane death.

When an animal is fatally shot with a bow, it can take several minutes for them to die and will suffer severe pain over this period due to the high level of tissue trauma and damage to organs.
There is also a high risk of non-fatal injury occurring and in some cases, a shot animal escaping to die a slow, painful death. In contrast, when an animal is shot with appropriate firearms and ammunition, by a trained and experienced shooter, death is extremely rapid.

Firearms deliver a percussive shock to the target animal which can delay the onset of pain, whereas arrows cause extensive damage without percussive shock. Ethically, there is no justification for using a method of killing that causes increased suffering when another more humane method is available.

In addition, proponents of bow hunting attempt to justify their sport by claiming that they assist pest animal management. However, bow hunting is not an effective method of controlling pest animals, as it is carried out by individual hunters and targeting only one animal at a time. In order for pest animal control to be effective, it needs to be carried out as part of an integrated management program that focuses on reducing the adverse impacts of the target animals. In contrast, bow hunting is carried out as a sporting activity that focuses on the achievement of the individual hunter.

There is no evidence that bow hunting makes any significant contribution to reducing the adverse impacts of pest animals in Australia.”


Whilst doing more research I found the following article;

https://www.foaa.com.au/latest-news/rec ... blic-land/

Irrespective of the content of the article I believe that their banner sends the wrong message to those people from who they are trying to gain support.

Some people may think of this as a military weapon for killing humans and not for the use in pest control.
F O A A.jpg
F O A A.jpg (24.35 KiB) Viewed 1981 times
Does a recreational hunter need this style of weapon.

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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jindydiver
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Re: Shooters offer assistance;

#7 Post by jindydiver » Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:03 pm

greybeard wrote:
Tax payers money used to fund the NSW Game Council.
Game Council Funding.jpg
Recreational hunting in NSW: claims v facts; interesting reading.

http://invasives.org.au/wp-content/uplo ... vfacts.pdf

Another problem for the government is drawing the line between ethical hunting and animal cruelty.

Evidence would suggest that recreational hunting does little to reduce feral game numbers.

Perhaps if hunters got off their backsides and as a group formulated a policy outlining the positive benefits of recreational hunting in state forests this then could become the first step in opening an ongoing dialogue with the state government.

Remember; if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

Daryl.
Everything you read on recreational hunting from the Invasive Species Council has to be seen as suspect and tainted by the ideologies and politics of the people working there, people like Carol Booth (who wrote their policy statements on recreational hunting) who is an animal liberationist so rabid in her views that she campaigns to have farmers stop using barbed wire. Of course she provides a chart listing the inputs to the GC from the NSW Gov but she doesn't mention the benefits of GC licenced hunters carrying out pest control in State Forest estates, something that has been worth (to the people of NSW) more than 2 times the dollar cost to the Gov. Cost benefit analysis carried out by the bean counters in NSW Gov has shown a net benefit to the tax payers of NSW of millions of dollars per year, but their parsing out of only the dollar cost of administering the scheme shows you the bias in the statements by the ISC.

As far as your claim that "Evidence would suggest that recreational hunting does little to reduce feral game numbers" I would ask you to provide some of your evidence. Maybe you could start by just telling us how many deer are killed in government control programs in Victoria each year, maybe telling us how many deer would have to be killed in Victoria for the 71,000 deer killed by the recreational hunters in Victoria (as reported by the GMA) to be considered as doing "little to reduce feral game numbers".

Either way, hunting is not pest control. That it provides a measure of control on some populations in some places is just a bonus. Hunting is a lot more. It is a culture handed down through millennia and is recognised as a separate culture by governments in some states of Australia, like NSW that has hunting listed as a culture deserving support in their "NSW Plan". Hunters should avoid spending their time justifying their culture to people who want to put their own values on what hunting should be and instead explain to people that their attacks on our culture are just bigotry and bullying based on their own narrow views on how they think people should spend their time.
Mick


Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.

Abraham Lincoln

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greybeard
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Re: Shooters offer assistance;

#8 Post by greybeard » Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:21 pm

My original post was regarding a link to a news item which covered an offer by hunters to assist land holders having problems with wild deer in Victoria.

Jacko replied and expressed his frustrations with the Queensland Governments negative approach to hunting on public land and in national parks and state forests.

My reply to Jacko included a link to a Queensland government report in which they indicated that ground shooting with guns or bow and arrow [in their opinion] was not the best method to eradicate feral pests.

From the SSAA website.

Queensland.

“Hunting is limited to feral animals on private property with landowners’ permission to hunt on the property.”

“Queensland doesn’t have any species currently classified as game that can be taken by recreational hunters during an open season.”

Of the 71,000 reported deer kills in Victoria how many were taken on private property?

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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jindydiver
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Re: Shooters offer assistance;

#9 Post by jindydiver » Mon May 01, 2017 9:41 am

greybeard wrote:

Of the 71,000 reported deer kills in Victoria how many were taken on private property?

Daryl.
What difference does land tenure make? Your assertion was..... "Evidence would suggest that recreational hunting does little to reduce feral game numbers" , and I am asking you how a reduction of 71,000 deer in Victoria by recreational hunters can be seen as "doing little"?
Mick


Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.

Abraham Lincoln

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perry
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Re: Shooters offer assistance;

#10 Post by perry » Mon May 01, 2017 6:33 pm

What we have here is a situation where the Anti's are manipulating the Public perception of all Hunter's. Too many Sheeple have a negative perception of Hunter's and a larger % don't care too much about anything outside the Shopping Mall and other distractions. We are all painted as Poacher's, Criminal's, that we enjoy Animal's suffering and any other negative dribble they can Tar us with. The Media loves to report bad thing's, they love to report things that frighten the general public. Naturally the Anti's are going to push the line that Hunter's are ineffective at Feral Animal Control. They want to remove all Weapons from Society, they want all Hunting to cease.

We have a situation where Government suppressors statistics that support Hunter's or Shooter's and put's their own slant to selectively released Stat's in order to create uncertainty in the Public mind or to have Hunters quarreling among themselves . Hunters are loosing the Propaganda War. It does not help Hunter's can not get the traction we require in the Media to get our story out there and we are not presenting a unified front.

regards Perry
"To my deep morticication my father once said to me, 'You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family.' "

- Charles Darwin

cadet
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Re: Shooters offer assistance;

#11 Post by cadet » Mon May 01, 2017 6:55 pm

Shooters and hunters have always been their own worst enemies, and I see no different here:
"why do shooters need guns like that"
"recreational hunters don't make a difference" etc.
Archers: they're coming for you, too.

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