WILD DOG CONTROL AND BOWS

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Dennis La Varenne
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WILD DOG CONTROL AND BOWS

#1 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Fri May 11, 2012 1:52 pm

Here is a link to the Weekly Times which is running a survey about whether or not bows should be used in the control of wild dogs. It was sent to me through the Southern Riverina Hunting Club of which I am a member.

http://www.weeklytimesnow.com.au/opinion/index.html
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

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flyne
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Re: WILD DOG CONTROL AND BOWS

#2 Post by flyne » Fri May 11, 2012 2:42 pm

To bad it dosnt give a number to the statistics and I see no reason why we shouldn't iv been bailed up by them in the bush before and iv also seen the damage they corse to stock and wild life
good judgement comes from experience and experience comes from poor judgement
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Re: WILD DOG CONTROL AND BOWS

#3 Post by Keith Lee » Fri May 11, 2012 7:25 pm

Theres plenty of them around,about 15th of them showed up on sunday night at the Gringa shoot at Tiaro.

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Re: WILD DOG CONTROL AND BOWS

#4 Post by GrahameA » Sat May 12, 2012 8:28 am

Morning All.

Suggesting Archery be used to control dogs is a really dumb move. Just imagine the negative publicity that would happen when someone's pet is found with an arrow stuck in it. All that it will do is provide the anti-Archery lobby a stick to beat Archery to death with.
Grahame.
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Re: WILD DOG CONTROL AND BOWS

#5 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Sat May 12, 2012 9:40 am

Grahame,

I am pretty sure that this is about the huge problems that Ag people in Victoria's North East are and have been having with domestic dogs gone wild (over some generations now) and are living in the bush. Very many of the livestock farmers have had to get out of sheep production only because of the dogs. The live in the very extensive National Parks and the State Forests there and all the way down the Eastern side of the State and are NOT frightened of people because they hunt in packs. I have a mate in Orbost who has been bailed up by a mob and always takes his .303 carbine with him when he goes bush for the day (10-shot mag).

Victoria has just been knocked back from introducing an aerial bating programme by the Feds because of the National Parks and the supposed impact on native wildlife while just over the NSW border adjoining these same parks, they have allowed it, which is irritating the Vic farming people in the NE.

I take your point though. A wounded dog carrying an arrow around will not do archery any favours.

However, under Victorian law, 'domestic animals run wild' are automatically classed as noxious animals and can be destroyed on sight by whatever humane means available. The silly thing is - you are not allowed to destroy noxious animals in National Parks unless you are a Departmental (DSE) officer or their employee, but you can destroy them in State Forests which surround them (or indeed any State Forest in Vic.).

(PS: Vics don't need a licence to hunt pest animals in its State Forests as they do in NSW for instance.)
(PPS: I just fixed up a couple of typos above about who can destroy pest animals in National Parks.)
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

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Re: WILD DOG CONTROL AND BOWS

#6 Post by GrahameA » Sat May 12, 2012 5:48 pm

Hi Dennis.

Understand all your reasoning.

However, such is bound to end up as bad and be depised by the public. It would be easier for the archery population to go and join PETA - it would have the same end result. Actually you may come out better off by joining PETA.
Grahame.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.

"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.

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Re: WILD DOG CONTROL AND BOWS

#7 Post by jindydiver » Sat May 12, 2012 6:26 pm

I don't understand how anybody can see supporting bowhunting can be anything but good? If hunters are allowed to kill wild dogs, and they are, then people should know that bowhunters are as interested in having a go as the rifle users.
Mick


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Re: WILD DOG CONTROL AND BOWS

#8 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Sun May 13, 2012 5:08 am

Just off the Wild Dog thing for a moment, back in the 1990s when I was convener of the Vic ABA Bowhunting Defence Committee, the blokes from ABA Geelong were used by the Victorian Department of Sparks and Embers (DSE) to cull feral goats in the You Yangs range west of Melbourne and on the way to Geelong. There were no problems with the outcomes. The area is fairly small and insular and eminently suited to bows. The area surrounding the You Yangs is dead flat.

My guess is that the Department trialled bows and arrows because the numbers of goats was not too high, but in danger of increasing and perhaps they thought it inappropriate for firearms to be used because of the type of terrain. This was an officially sanctioned trial by DSE.

However, I don't see that destroying a wild dog using a bow is any different to pest goats or any other noxious animal anywhere else. The relevant Act only requires that they be destroyed humanely and that is up to us. All manner of noxious animals are hunted humanely using bows in Victoria including non-noxious declared Game animals such as the 4 species of Deer we have.

For myself, if I came across a dog in the bush (which by definition in Victorian law is a 'domestic animal run wild', I would shoot it with my bow. Having a collar is no protection under Vic law. The same goes for any of the wild dogs which tend to form marauding packs and are very dangerous to livestock particularly and sometimes to humans. There is nothing special about wild dogs that does not apply to any other noxious/feral/domestic animal run wild which we hunt all the time.

The nub in Victoria is that genuine Dingoes (which are pretty rare there) are fully protected. So it is incumbent upon the bowhunter to be able to tell the difference.

The curious thing about the poll is why the question was asked in the first place. It is already legal to destroy these dogs by any humane means in Victoria. Is there another agenda or did the Weekly Times just not not bother to look into the law and who was it who put the question to the Weekly Times.
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

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Re: WILD DOG CONTROL AND BOWS

#9 Post by jindydiver » Sun May 13, 2012 10:19 am

Dennis La Varénne wrote:
The nub in Victoria is that genuine Dingoes (which are pretty rare there) are fully protected. So it is incumbent upon the bowhunter to be able to tell the difference.
.
Can you point us to the rules for Vic Dennis, in NSW it is very simple and easy to understand, a dog is not a dingo unless it is within a National Park or is otherwise protected by geographical location. Dingos are not distinguishable from dogs by sight and it is just plain unfair to have someone second guess your decision to shoot after they have the luxury of a DNA test to inform their decision making.
Mick


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Re: WILD DOG CONTROL AND BOWS

#10 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Sun May 13, 2012 11:39 am

Mick,

That again is where it is difficult. There aren't any that I can find. One is supposed to be able to distinguish them on sight which presents serious problems as you can imagine. There has been discussion in hunting media in the past on the issue, but nothing at a Government level has come about that I know of. Dingoes are protected by specie, not location in Vic.
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

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Re: WILD DOG CONTROL AND BOWS

#11 Post by jindydiver » Sun May 13, 2012 1:20 pm

It would be an obvious denial of natural justice for a court to rely on a scientific test of some sort to determine what you have shot when you as the hunter only have your best judgement based on what you see to determine if you should shoot.

Are these dogs or are they dingos, if they were shot in Vic would I be getting a knock on the door?
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Mick


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Re: WILD DOG CONTROL AND BOWS

#12 Post by GrahameA » Sun May 13, 2012 5:04 pm

Hi Mick.
jindydiver wrote:I don't understand how anybody can see supporting bowhunting can be anything but good? If hunters are allowed to kill wild dogs, and they are, then people should know that bowhunters are as interested in having a go as the rifle users.
Not everyone supports hunting and not everyone supports bowhunting. There are a lot of people who would perceive the hunting of dogs - wild or dangerous - as cruel and undesired event.

This all about perception and if you wish to hunt wild dogs with a bow then you be better off doing a substantial PR programme first - like the NT did with the Buffalo eradication programme - so most people understand why. Plus have excellent PR programme ready to swing into action when Fido is found dead or is found wandering around with an arrow sticking out them

Why give people a stick to beat you to death with.
Grahame.
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Re: WILD DOG CONTROL AND BOWS

#13 Post by jindydiver » Sun May 13, 2012 5:24 pm

GrahameA wrote:Hi Mick.
jindydiver wrote:I don't understand how anybody can see supporting bowhunting can be anything but good? If hunters are allowed to kill wild dogs, and they are, then people should know that bowhunters are as interested in having a go as the rifle users.
Not everyone supports hunting and not everyone supports bowhunting. There are a lot of people who would perceive the hunting of dogs - wild or dangerous - as cruel and undesired event.

This all about perception and if you wish to hunt wild dogs with a bow then you be better off doing a substantial PR programme first - like the NT did with the Buffalo eradication programme - so most people understand why. Plus have excellent PR programme ready to swing into action when Fido is found dead or is found wandering around with an arrow sticking out them

Why give people a stick to beat you to death with.
G'day Grahame

No need for any PR campaign, we are allowed to hunt dogs with a bow in any circumstances where we are allowed to hunt them with a rifle. Dogs ( and deer, pigs, foxes, all manner of feral animals) are being shot with bows every weekend in Victoria and I am yet to see one photo of any of them wandering around with arrows sticking out of them.
That little brindle and white guy above, my arrow passed straight through him and into another dog following him. It bolted and I couldn't find it on the day. I had a fair idea where it would head (the pack ran past Mozza a little while after I killed that dog) and a few months later I found the arrow on a trail (minus broadhead strangely) in the area where I should have found the dog on the day. I had looked very hard and I doubt someone likely to take offence would have been more successful than me in spotting it. And if they had, who cares, these are wild dogs and anybody not blinded by ideology (the fence sitters we often see referred to) would see the hunting for the good deed it was, no matter how much a picture of a dead dog was paraded about.
Mick


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Re: WILD DOG CONTROL AND BOWS

#14 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Sun May 13, 2012 5:41 pm

Grahame,

I don't see anything special about wild dogs which needs considering.

Anybody in NE Vic will quite happily tell you to kill the lot of them however you can. The Government doesn't have a problem so long as it is done humanely. That was the whole reason back in the 1950s under the original Vermin and Noxious Weeds Act (now the Catchment and Lands Protection Act 1994) that hunters have been allowed free access to State Forests and unalienated public lands to destroy declared pest animals by any humane means. Wild Dogs are just another of those on the Gazetted list.

It doesn't need a PR campaign. It is already a legislated thing in Vic..
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

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Re: WILD DOG CONTROL AND BOWS

#15 Post by GrahameA » Sun May 13, 2012 6:08 pm

Hi Dennis.
Dennis La Varénne wrote:The Government doesn't have a problem so long as it is done humanely. ....

It doesn't need a PR campaign.
Just as long as the people in Suburban Melbourne, Sydney, whatever major city agree.
Grahame.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.

"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.

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Re: WILD DOG CONTROL AND BOWS

#16 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Sun May 13, 2012 6:47 pm

Grahame,

They don't have to. They are bound by the law which their Government made on their behalf.

I do understand your concerns about adverse PR, but the wild dog thing is serious business in the Vic NE and over the border into SE NSW. They are a very serious agricultural menace and the problems caused by them are not unknown to the people of Victoria. It fairly regularly hits the media down here throughout the year.

I just cannot see a distinction between destroying pest wild dogs with a bow as opposed to destroying any other kind of declared pest animal on crown lands here.

That gets back to my earlier question of why the WT found it necessary to bring up the issue of destroying wild dogs using bows in particular. It is already legal in Vic.

Reading between some lines, I wonder about agendas unstated. There was no supporting article in the WT of that issue. It seemed to be an out-of-the-blue thing. Is somebody trying to push an anti-bow campaign in raising the issue for instance on an issue which is already legal.

More digging I think.
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

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Re: WILD DOG CONTROL AND BOWS

#17 Post by Nephew » Sun May 13, 2012 8:59 pm

See, I don't think I could do it. Don't get me wrong. I know they are dangerous and a pest and must be eradicated, and I'm quite content to support, and certainly not disparage, those that can, and do, hunt dogs. But, having never seen a wild dog, only domestic pets, I just don't think I, personally, could draw a bow on one. That may be a weakness on my part, I don't know, but if it is, so be it.
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Re: WILD DOG CONTROL AND BOWS

#18 Post by piggy » Sun May 13, 2012 9:06 pm

The way I see it if it has NO Collar then it's feral!

Any owner who has a pet dog running around without a collar and identification tags in the bush runs the risk of their dog getting shot!
Unfortunately it's not the dogs fault but I guess blame the hunter NOT the irresponsible owner for not complying with the laws.

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Re: WILD DOG CONTROL AND BOWS

#19 Post by GrahameA » Mon May 14, 2012 7:47 am

Hi Dennis
Dennis La Varénne wrote:They don't have to. They are bound by the law which their Government made on their behalf.
Unfortunately the Court of Public Opinion does not follow those rules.
Dennis La Varénne wrote:That gets back to my earlier question of why the WT found it necessary to bring up the issue of destroying wild dogs using bows in particular. It is already legal in Vic.

Reading between some lines, I wonder about agendas unstated.
I always have concerns about the unstated in such statements. But then again I am a cynic, and almost always tend to question statements that "don't seem right" or "appear from the blue".
Grahame.
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Re: WILD DOG CONTROL AND BOWS

#20 Post by Siege » Thu May 24, 2012 1:03 am

The main issue is how it is done. It is always going to come back to how it is done, and images that evolve from it 'being done'.
People in cities are fully aware of the issues with wild dogs, or foxes or even high numbers of kangaroo's doing damage. The thing is they know it needs to be dealt with, the thing is they don't want to know how or why or when.

A rifle is always going to be seen as a favored measure to deal with these issues, that is not to say that is right or wrong, but the people as a whole are uneducated on the use of guns and even bows. We see more about guns in daily life from tv, movies the bloke down the street, bows on the other hand are an even smaller number, often limited to what a local club can educate in their area.

I am someone who has worked with many australian animals over the years, I was even in communication with a private shooter who was hired to deal with the kangaroo problem at pukapunal a few years back. If the shot is clean I don't see a problem with it as I know it needs to be done, but I for one would feel horrible if I hit a dog or a cat with an arrow and it kept on running never to be found. This is just my personal opinion.

The other issue I hear all the time is people trying to portray shooting or bows as a sport when they go hunt animals. Most people don't see this as a sport as the animal has no way to fight back. Even when I brought into the conversation 'what if ducks could shoot back' only a little under half of the people said if that was so then they would support it. Now this was just a bit of a survey I did at a reptile meeting just to see people's opinions on the subject as I had often had this discussion.

It is always going to go back to how is it done, why is it done, and is it done humainly.

Jindydiver - You would be hard pressed to find more people that support bowhunting than against. If a survey was conducted away from people involved with the sport than I am positive the amount of people supporting it would be fewer than maybe 1/3 or the surveyed people. Unless you come from a country background hunting is seen as unnecessary when we can go to the supermarket and buy the meat we want. it is also to a degree seen as being 'bad' for no other reason than most people are uneducated on hunting and the use of bows/rifles. You can watch the news every night and hear more about a shooting, you don't hear about the positives only negitives, this will cause the public's perception to become narrower than it is already

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Re: WILD DOG CONTROL AND BOWS

#21 Post by perry » Fri May 25, 2012 12:37 am

Nephew wrote:See, I don't think I could do it. Don't get me wrong. I know they are dangerous and a pest and must be eradicated, and I'm quite content to support, and certainly not disparage, those that can, and do, hunt dogs. But, having never seen a wild dog, only domestic pets, I just don't think I, personally, could draw a bow on one. That may be a weakness on my part, I don't know, but if it is, so be it.

I really can not add anymore to the discussion that has not already been said other than I understand where your coming from Craig, it's not weakness. I'm a Cat owner myself, had dogs throughout my childhood. All that went out the Window when a Feral German Shepherd Cross straight out Hunted me down a few K from Camp with Dark approaching Outback of Quilpie in 95. It was only the Hairs standing up on the back of my neck that made me turn around just in time to see this Mongrel about to attack. Instead I attacked it, missed a hurried shot, charged at it swinging my Bow as a Club, probably screaming like a Girl :lol: but it still shadowed me as I jogged [read Ran] back to Camp [ bit fitter then :biggrin: ] . Boy it puts the wind up you being the Hunted.

I have limited experience Hunting Dogs, howled them up a few times but they have been too Cagey. A Bow and Arrow is a legitimate tool to use for Wild Dog control and kills em as dead as a Bullet but we are talking Public perception and Bambi Syndrome, Social Conditioning what ever you want to call it. My local Council has a very busy Feral Dog Control Unit, they keep it as discrete as possible. Is Feral Dog Control a case of SSS - Shoot, Shovel and Shutup ??? and patience as the tide of public opinion changes

regards Jacko
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Re: WILD DOG CONTROL AND BOWS

#22 Post by Rock Steady » Fri May 25, 2012 9:24 am

I wonder if a bush walker would rather walk past a bowhunter or a pack of hungry feral dogs.

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Re: WILD DOG CONTROL AND BOWS

#23 Post by Siege » Fri May 25, 2012 10:41 pm

I know there are feral cats near me, never seen a wild dog, but I think it is really hard to say what you would do until you are faced with the issue. The wild cats I have seen are really something else when I compare them to domesticated cats.

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Re: WILD DOG CONTROL AND BOWS

#24 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Sat May 26, 2012 7:10 pm

I have just looked up Vic Dept of Ag site (today, 26th MaY, 2012) about eligible hunting groups who can participate in the Fox and wild dog control bounty system.

Here is the URL for those who would like to look for themselves - http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/agriculture/p ... the-bounty, and here is the list of eligible groups legally entitled to participate from the URL -

2.2 Wild dog reward
. . . Victorian financial members of the Sporting Shooters Association of Australia, Field and Game Australia, the Australian Deer Association, Victorian Hound Hunters Association, Australian Bow Hunters Association, Gippsland Deer Stalkers Association and North East Deer Stalkers Association are also eligible to submit acceptable body parts of wild dogs hunted in Wild Dog Control Areas of Victoria during the bounty period at scheduled collection centres.

I have highlighted ABA for obvious reasons of the nature of this thread.
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

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Re: WILD DOG CONTROL AND BOWS

#25 Post by Grizz » Mon Mar 06, 2017 3:27 pm

I have had a wild dog come after me while hunting (bull arab cross) . It took two arrows ,the first front on through head neck and out the hip and somehow made it to 45m where the second arrow went through his chest which dropped him . Not a great feeling to kill someone's pig dog but i was not going to let it bite me.
The other issue was that the first mechcanical broadhead dropped two blades , part of the reason for needing two arrows.
As always the right gear and shot placement are essential.

Cheers grizz

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