That is a lot of Deer.

General Hunting News & Alerts. The place for posting and reading about what's happening in the world of hunting, for finding out what our Friends & Foes are up to, and how we are responding.

Moderator: Moderators

Message
Author
User avatar
GrahameA
Posts: 4691
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:28 pm
Location: Welcome to Brisneyland, Oz

That is a lot of Deer.

#1 Post by GrahameA » Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:54 am

Morning All.
The first segment of the Tennessee archery-only deer season will close Friday evening and preliminary harvest reports from the Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency indicate archers tagged approximately 17,000 during the five-week season.
Source http://www.theleafchronicle.com/article ... NTPAGE%7Cs
Grahame.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.

"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.

User avatar
Stickbow Hunter
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 11497
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 8:33 pm
Location: Maryborough Queensland

Re: That is a lot of Deer.

#2 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:53 am

Widlife management obviously works well for them and they keep excellent records of the game taken. Can you imagine a Youth Hunting Competition with the prizes being guns out here in OZ? :shock: The media and do gooders would go berserk!!! :roll: :x

Jeff

Alex
Posts: 147
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:01 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: That is a lot of Deer.

#3 Post by Alex » Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:22 am

17.000 in five weeks !!!!!
I reckon there's no need for so much killing in such a short time.
Are deers a feral (pest) in the USA ?
Otherwise they are just doing what they did to the buffalos a century or so ago, extermination.
That's no good, but correct me if I am wrong.
Alex.

User avatar
Stickbow Hunter
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 11497
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 8:33 pm
Location: Maryborough Queensland

Re: That is a lot of Deer.

#4 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:42 am

Alex,

You are very wrong with what you are saying. The deer are native and they are managed extremely well over there with only the right amount culled to keep the populations healthy. If they don't manage them they die by the thousands in winter and from disease. All the meat from the deer is used for food.

Jeff

wishsong
Posts: 543
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 3:47 pm

Re: That is a lot of Deer.

#5 Post by wishsong » Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:59 am

Alex ,
the reason there are so many availiable to be hunted in the first place is because of well researched , science based conservation programs ...
And I think you'll find that it was hunters themselves that sponsored the modern reintroduction of Bison ... note they were hunters , not the commercial 'shooters' of 120 years ago .

Unlike Australia , they tend to manage there native wild life populations with extreme care and a lot of hunter based funding , hence they have some great hunting opportunities , and based on my understanding , every season is tailored to the needs of the herds and the land based on what the many forestry and wildlife biologists recommend .

Alex
Posts: 147
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:01 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: That is a lot of Deer.

#6 Post by Alex » Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:06 pm

I reckon it will be hard to recover from this 17.000 in one year.
Perhaps they won't have deer season next year.
How long takes for a deer to grow into an adult animal ?
17.000 seems to be a big number to me.
Imagine going to Texas (Qld) for five weeks and by the end of it there's 17.000 goats on the ground.
I don't understand conservationism very well , I am not a hunter either , that's one theme I would like to hear more about.
Alex.

User avatar
rodlonq
Posts: 2096
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 3:02 pm
Location: Ingham NQ

Re: That is a lot of Deer.

#7 Post by rodlonq » Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:29 pm

Thank you Grahame,

That was a very interesting read. What a place to live, almost makes me want to go and live there. There is some more interesting reading at this link, it has some numbers for the total whitetail harvest in Tennessee. http://www.tn.gov/twra/deermain.html

Alex, They must have a large enough base population to sustain the size of the cull. Note the record year was only 5 years ago with over 20 000 animals taken.

Cheers....... Rod

Alex
Posts: 147
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:01 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: That is a lot of Deer.

#8 Post by Alex » Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:48 pm

Yeah Rod, They must have lots of it.
That was only bow season, I understand that the rifle season comes after the bow season.
There wil be a lot more deer on the ground.
Does anyone knows how many deer can a bowhunter bag around there in season ?
Perhaps 2 or 3...
Excuse my ignorance on the matter, it just seems to be a lot of animals taken in very short time.
Alex.

User avatar
rodlonq
Posts: 2096
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 3:02 pm
Location: Ingham NQ

Re: That is a lot of Deer.

#9 Post by rodlonq » Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:57 pm

Alex, there is a lot of information about bag limits and rules for the various seasons on the twra link in my last post.

I think a bowhunter can take 3 stags and 4 hinds per season?

Cheers............ Rod

Alex
Posts: 147
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:01 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: That is a lot of Deer.

#10 Post by Alex » Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:01 pm

Thanks Rod.
Alex.

wishsong
Posts: 543
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 3:47 pm

Re: That is a lot of Deer.

#11 Post by wishsong » Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:39 pm

Alex , it depends from state to state but I think Alabama has a deer a day for close to three months . Many places have 'doe 'only periods etc . Given the amount of money spent on hunting each year in America , and dollars, time and knowledge invested by game depts , rest assured that they control these limits carefully and with much thought .

Also , the USA has a much larger hunting population than we do [ 9-10% of population ] . My friend Riod Jenkins was telling me that in many places in Alabama , the opening day of bow season is a public holiday , ditto rifle season .

There are more than likely a few million people hunting in these states each season ... I think recently there were approx 4 million bowhunting licenses sold in the USA .. thats a lot of people !!!

User avatar
jindydiver
Posts: 1329
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:06 pm
Location: ACT

Re: That is a lot of Deer.

#12 Post by jindydiver » Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:52 pm

Alex wrote:Yeah Rod, They must have lots of it.
That was only bow season, I understand that the rifle season comes after the bow season.
There wil be a lot more deer on the ground.
Does anyone knows how many deer can a bowhunter bag around there in season ?
Perhaps 2 or 3...
Excuse my ignorance on the matter, it just seems to be a lot of animals taken in very short time.
Alex.
17,000 is a drop in the bucket.


from
http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/wildlife/d ... ummary.asp
During the past deer season 219,797 deer were reported killed by hunters in Virginia. This total included 95,543 antlered bucks, 19,191 button bucks, and 105,063 does (47.8%). The fall 2010 deer kill total was 15% lower than the 259,147 deer reported killed last year. It is 3% lower than the last 10 year average of 227,430.


from
http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/dee ... rms-season
For Ohio's recently concluded seven-day firearms deer hunting season, sportsmen shot 104,442 animals. For the same seven-day hunt in 2009, Ohio sportsmen killed 114,633 deer.
40 odd other states to go....


When hunters don't take the required number of deer during the normal season special seasons are declared or free tags are given so that the correct number of deer are taken. If it isn't done this way the deer become over populated and disease, car accidents and unwanted attention of deer on gardens and crops result. This is called management and it has been working well for around 100 years.
Mick


Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.

Abraham Lincoln

User avatar
rodlonq
Posts: 2096
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 3:02 pm
Location: Ingham NQ

Re: That is a lot of Deer.

#13 Post by rodlonq » Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:39 pm

Just think how many people make a living from this industry - it's mind blowing :shock: and rather cool 8)

Cheers......... Rod

longbowinfected
Posts: 2040
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:42 pm

Re: That is a lot of Deer.

#14 Post by longbowinfected » Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:16 pm

Alex, USA has a population 15 times larger than ours and most things are 15 times bigger. Most of the country is afected by snow for a large chunk of the year. At those times there is little food for many native herbivores. If they were allowed to verbreed because a season was too good and they could breed up, many would starve or have to go into housing areas with a huge number of motor vehicle accidents, maimed animals and loss of animal life.

Think about farmers raising animals for meat. probably a much greater proportion of the young each year are killed to provide meat and those herds are taxed harder yet do not shrink.

It might be fair to assume that the number of top end predators might be less with the advent of intensive farming for a couple of hundred years. If the deer that are weaker or not better suited to survive survive to breed the genetic pol becomes weaker.

Same thing where farmers keep better suited animals for breeders wrt livestock for meat.

Now some folk fel that eating meat is wrong. Others feel that using guns, bows or killing animals is wrong. They are separate issues. If the people who feel strongly one way or another respected the rights of others to make their own decisions this world would be a much better place for mine. No one complains about the hunter/gathere in Africa or the amazon as being "wrong' or "evil'. I do not suggest that you have such views Alex...I have merely looked at an extended angle.

Kevin
never complain....you did not have to wake up....every day is an extra bonus and costs nothing.

Alex
Posts: 147
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:01 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: That is a lot of Deer.

#15 Post by Alex » Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:09 pm

I am not against hunting, would love to go in one myself, but I belive in hunting to feed yourself and your family only.
I belive it to be wrong to hunt for trophies only.
Kill a boar for it's tusks only, because the meat is no good to eat, better kill a piglet ( a sucker) and let the boar alone to keep cleaning the environment of the carcass that other hunters leave behind.
Some time ago in the club I was talking to a young fella that was going hunting on a property up north , asked him what was he going to do with the goats or pigs he could catch, he said he would just leave there were they fall, because he wouldn't skin it for the lack of knowledge on how to do it.
Now I know people will say that those are feral animals and they do damage to the land and faunaand that are millions of them, but they didn't ask to be introduced in the country, but they were brought here and they survived and reproduced and are now part of this land, pigs, foxes, rabits, deers, camels, donkeys, whatever they are.
I love my steak, love my archery and hope one day have a hunt to bring some meat home.
I wouldn't take a life just to bring home some tusks or some horns.
I know I am about to cope some flack from the hunters of this site, so now I am taking some cover.
Alex.

User avatar
jindydiver
Posts: 1329
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:06 pm
Location: ACT

Re: That is a lot of Deer.

#16 Post by jindydiver » Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:51 pm

Alex wrote: Now I know people will say that those are feral animals and they do damage to the land and faunaand that are millions of them, but they didn't ask to be introduced in the country, but they were brought here and they survived and reproduced and are now part of this land, pigs, foxes, rabits, deers, camels, donkeys, whatever they are.
Not flak, hopefully something to educate you on some of the thinking

If you claim that the pigs and what not have the right to be left alone except as sustenance for humans who wish to hunt then you accept the demise of native flora and fauna. By choosing to allow the pest species to thrive you choose to allow the pest species to dominate and for the native species to die out.
If the gov' in New Zealand had your attitude we would have already seen many native birds unique to NZ extinct now because the rats and stoats have been there for hundreds of years. Instead the NZ gov' made a choice to keep native birds and kill rats and stoats at every opportunity. We now see many island sanctuaries (like Kapiti island) where native birds thrive and rats and stoats are extinct.

In Canberra a few years ago we had a new community group spring up out of the ornithological society that was dedicating themselves to catching and killing Indian Mynas. A section of the society opposed the killing of the mynas on similar grounds to your argument, the birds have been here a long time and they deserve their place as well. It was pointed out to this group by the prominent ecologist Dr Ian Frazer, that they were then making a clear choice to not have parrots and other hollow nesting birds in the region and to have mynas and starlings instead. You can't be for native birds and also for the invasive species that is driving them out of habitat they need to survive.

While the government is working to control pest species through culls (either shooting or poisoning) then the hunter should feel no remorse for killing those same pests and not using the carcase, he is not morally obliged to limit his hunting to preserve a pest species, he is free to choose his own path, as are you.
Mick


Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.

Abraham Lincoln

Alex
Posts: 147
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:01 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: That is a lot of Deer.

#17 Post by Alex » Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:01 pm

Jindy
I agree that these introduced species do damage the fauna here the same they would do in any other place, even in their place of origin.
They were brought here by our ancestors to feed us for the lack of natural resources in Australia at the time of colonization.
Even some fish were brought here and dumped in the rivers and they just took over the other species.
Some escaped and reproduced in the wild without any type of control (at the time) for the lack of knowledge of what was to come out of this.
In the USA, deer is not an introduced species, they were there much before the europeans arrived, and they were thriving and feeding the natives and themselves , and they all lived all right, and I reckon that at that time, without any type of culling, should have much more deer and elk and other species than they have now.
The problem is that when the europeans arrived, some species start to disapear, became almost extinct like bufallo and elk, the elks had to be reintroduced in Tennesee around 1999/2000 because there were minimum numbers, so they were brought from Canada to repopulate that area. Hope it works as has worked with the bufallo.
Here in Australia, we are trying to control the grow of such introduced species , that were brought here to feed us , well , some were brought here to control the other introduced species , like the foxes to control the rabits, even the cane toads were introduced...
I just think that 17.000 deers killed in five weeks in only one american state is a bit too much.
I just hope if this happens here in Oz , will be in a more controlled manner.
I am on favor of hunting to bring food to the table. Not just trophies. A life is a life.
Alex.

User avatar
g_r
Posts: 524
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:07 am
Location: Germany,Wanna hear me bugle?

Re: That is a lot of Deer.

#18 Post by g_r » Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:12 pm

Ou have to keep in mind that game numbers (also and especially deer) in the US are growing. In comparison to the 60s for example there are many more deer thriving now. That is due to a succesful managment and if that managemnet that is obviously working says so many deer can be shot in my opinion it shouldnt do any damage to the population.
I dont have treu insight or detailed numbers right now but im 100% sure of the facts stated above.
watch youre feet, you may never know where they might take you....

Always scout like you are scouting scouts!

Rock Steady
Posts: 87
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:42 pm

Re: That is a lot of Deer.

#19 Post by Rock Steady » Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:35 pm

Alex

In the quote below do you mean the boar is cleaning the environment of carcasses left behind by other hunters?
and let the boar alone to keep cleaning the environment of the carcass that other hunters leave behind.
Michael

User avatar
jindydiver
Posts: 1329
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:06 pm
Location: ACT

Re: That is a lot of Deer.

#20 Post by jindydiver » Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:14 am

Alex
You are conflating the two issues here, the US management of a native animal, and the Oz management of an introduced animal, and there are really no similarities between the two.
I just think that 17.000 deers killed in five weeks in only one american state is a bit too much.
Why? Just because?
Are you having trouble grasping the fact that the deer population in that state are so high already that the biologists see a need to remove 17,000 of them to maintain deer herd health and to stop over-populations of deer degrading valuable habitat?
17,000 is nothing, and it is not the total number of deer killed in that State in that year, far from it. Open your mind a little and spend some time looking around the internet at some of what is going on over there and you will find that the hunt is a very important part of the management of deer and deer habitat, both in deer numbers management and in revenue raised to help manage habitat.
2 minutes searching and I find that Tennessee indeed has more deer than you could possibly imagine....
The record deer harvest in Tennessee was more than 182,000 in 2006. Gibbs said there are nearly 900,000 deer in the state
from
http://www2.tricities.com/sports/2009/j ... ar-249626/

And the number of deer killed in Missouri every year would make your head spin (nearly 300,000)

Seeing as whitetail deer are a pretty fecund species and their natural recruitment should easily make 25% each year the deer harvest comes up short. There must be a hell of a lot die because of vehicular impacts or are killed by farmers under depredation permits.

You have to understand that the management of the harvest each year is much more nuanced than "here is a number, go kill this many". Populations are counted in small areas (typically County size, but in some States much smaller) and tags are only issued for excess animals in those areas. Some areas might have no hunting for the year while other areas see extended seasons. You can follow this link to see the deer zone map for California. You can see on the link what number of deer can be taken in each zone.
http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/ ... nemap.html

For instance, zone z9c has only one archery only season and no other hunting. The tags must be applied for and you must be drawn in a ballot to get them.
http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/ ... fo2011.pdf

If you click on and read the info for D11 you will see that the rules and regulations surrounding the hunt can get very complex. These rules are all about making sure a valuable resource is protected for future generations of hunters (and all nature lovers) while still allowing hunting, a cultural pursuit that is seen as culturally valuable by the people of the US, and also preserving the hunting revenue which is very important to not only the economy of the US but also the future management of the wild places hunters and others enjoy in the US.

The deer in the US are thriving simply because the US is a very fertile land and the hunters (and the gov dept's that help manage them) work to manage the deer for future herd health and the health of their habitat.

Which brings us back to Oz.
Here we live in a country that is much less fertile and with entirely different flora and fauna, adapted to live in those less fertile conditions. This flora and fauna quite often lives on a razors edge in Oz and any disruption to the habitat can spell disaster for species locally and in some cases lead to extinction of species. Then settlers brought with them new species that were able to fill niches in our ecology that were not intended to be filled by those species. Think about the arid lands inland along the NSW/QLD border. The bilby was thriving and it's numbers were balanced by the presence of a top predator, the wedge tailed eagle. Then along came domestic cats run wild. The cats hunted in a way that the bilby was not adapted to and very quickly the bilby was in serious trouble. We know the effect cats have on bilby populations because we have areas now in that region that are surrounded by cat proof fences and all the cats within exterminated. The bilby are once again thriving within those compounds. We see numerous examples of the same effects at work in other sanctuaries set up to exclude introduced terrestrial predators like cats and foxes.
Pigs are also a threat to habitat, and indeed to individuals of many threatened species. Should we refrain from shooting Cape York boars just because we will not be eating them when those same boars are digging up the eggs of threatened turtle species? Should we stop killing feral cats on Cape York, even though we will never be eating them, knowing full well that those cats are destroying the population of golden shouldered parrots. Many of us who have thought about this issue are killing them not just because we enjoy hunting but also because we enjoy the birds.
Our amazing country can support populations of all sorts of feral species without the feral species threatening natives populations or habitats. With some ferals the population needs to be ruthlessly culled to prevent disaster, with other ferals the country is hard on them and they are not thriving so we don't need to be as ruthless. Many Australian hunters spend time learning the difference and don't just react to numbers killed in a news report just because those numbers are large. I wish non-hunters would spend time learning about the issue rather than making judgements based on nothing more than their own preconceptions.
Last edited by jindydiver on Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mick


Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.

Abraham Lincoln

User avatar
jindydiver
Posts: 1329
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:06 pm
Location: ACT

Re: That is a lot of Deer.

#21 Post by jindydiver » Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:18 am

A different issue so a different post
I am on favor of hunting to bring food to the table. Not just trophies. A life is a life.
Do you oppose all feral animal control? or only the section of feral animal control that is done by hunters?
Mick


Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.

Abraham Lincoln

Alex
Posts: 147
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:01 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: That is a lot of Deer.

#22 Post by Alex » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:31 am

Jindy
I am not opposed to hunting with the purpose of one feeding himself.
I don't like the idea of killing 1,2 or 3 species that were brought here from another continent were they were totally aclimatised and confortable , because they have to feed themselves.
It 's just that after our ancestors started breeding cattle, they let those species run and breed in the wild , and now we have to kill them when they are just doing their thing , eating and sleeping and breeding.
I understand when you say they have to be culled to bring their numbers down , but they will keep killing and eating the local species unless they are totally terminated. That's the only solution if the native fauna is to prevail.
The culling be done by hunters or the government , makes no difference at all.
Alex.

User avatar
jindydiver
Posts: 1329
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:06 pm
Location: ACT

Re: That is a lot of Deer.

#23 Post by jindydiver » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:47 am

Alex wrote:Jindy
I am not opposed to hunting with the purpose of one feeding himself.
Are you saying that you ARE opposed to hunting just for the kill, no food involved at all?

Alex wrote: I don't like the idea of killing 1,2 or 3 species that were brought here from another continent were they were totally aclimatised and confortable , because they have to feed themselves.
It 's just that after our ancestors started breeding cattle, they let those species run and breed in the wild , and now we have to kill them when they are just doing their thing , eating and sleeping and breeding.
A shame it may be, but their "eating and sleeping and breeding" endangers our natives and so they must be controled.
Alex wrote: I understand when you say they have to be culled to bring their numbers down , but they will keep killing and eating the local species unless they are totally terminated. That's the only solution if the native fauna is to prevail.
No invasive animal species ever to get a foot hold on a continent has ever been exterminated, not anywhere in the world, not ever. So now that extermination is off the table we are only left with control. We either control the pests or we allow them to dominate. Many of us agree with the gov' that the pests should be controlled. Control doesn't have to always mean hammering them either. Some feral animals can exist in benign populations in our native ecosystems and we must recognise which ferals, which ecosystems, and at what population levels the ferals become a pest and adapt our control methods appropriately.

Alex wrote: The culling be done by hunters or the government , makes no difference at all.
Alex.
Then why make moral judgements about hunters killing feral animals? If there is no difference between the gov laying poison baits or shooting mobs of feral animals from helicopters and the hunter shooting a pig in the hope of gaining a trophy then why do you differentiate between the hunter killing for food and the hunter killing a trophy?
Mick


Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.

Abraham Lincoln

User avatar
GrahameA
Posts: 4691
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:28 pm
Location: Welcome to Brisneyland, Oz

Re: That is a lot of Deer.

#24 Post by GrahameA » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:48 am

Hi Alex.
Alex wrote:I am not against hunting, would love to go in one myself, but I belive in hunting to feed yourself and your family only.
I belive it to be wrong to hunt for trophies only.
IMHO you need to consider all viewpoints. e.g. I have far more issues with:- The the use of 1080 than I do with Trophy Hunting. Is the use of a 14' Aluminium Boat and a 28hp Mariner for Turtle Hunting - traditional hunting? Is the use of Myxomatosis an "ethical" way to kill Rabbits? What about the use of Dingo traps and Rabbit traps. Is it environmentally good to let the household cat kill the local lizard population - bird population - small mammal population? Where does the shooting of Water Buffalo from Helicopters and leaving the carcass where it falls sit? http://www.landmanager.org.au/managing- ... us-bubalis

Which is the correct (or better) decision - the destruction of all Deer, as they are a feral animal or the protection of Deer because they are a desired species?
Grahame.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.

"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.

User avatar
jindydiver
Posts: 1329
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:06 pm
Location: ACT

Re: That is a lot of Deer.

#25 Post by jindydiver » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:59 am

GrahameA wrote:
Which is the correct (or better) decision - the destruction of all Deer, as they are a feral animal or the protection of Deer because they are a desired species?
Neither
The solution is adaptive management based on what damage a particular population in a particular ecosystem are responsible for and what levels of population that ecosystem can support without detriment to the ecosystem.
Mick


Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.

Abraham Lincoln

User avatar
Nephew
Posts: 3046
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:28 pm
Location: Coochiemudlo Island,Moreton Bay, Qld.

Re: That is a lot of Deer.

#26 Post by Nephew » Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:30 pm

Jindy, correct me if I'm wrong here, but aren't the whitetail one of those species that seem to have benefited from urbanisation? I once heard that they are so thick in Atlanta, Georgia that they can be a traffic hazard! That alone tells me it makes sense to have the game management policies they do, and maybe we should be considering here.
I know 17000 seems a lot to us, Alex, but I'm certain the amount and quality of the research they do over there ensures the sustainability of the species, which would almost certainly not be the case without management.
Lately, if life were treating me any better, I'd be suspicious of it's motives!

User avatar
jindydiver
Posts: 1329
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:06 pm
Location: ACT

Re: That is a lot of Deer.

#27 Post by jindydiver » Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:36 pm

G'day Morton

Deer don't benefit from urbanisation, after all they can't eat concrete, but they have certainly adapted to the suburbs (peri-urban) very well and made themselves a pest in some areas. The rusa in Woolongong have done similarly well on the improved pasture below the escarpment. They live in and around the city very well and thrive well enough that despite all the hunting that was going on for many decades the population increased steadily. Deer are very resilient (most species anyway) and you can see just how resilient when you think that whitetail were almost wiped out in many areas of the US and within a century they recovered to the stage that we see them now. It is important to note that it is all a result of the use of the deer by recreational hunters and the value recreational hunters see in deer. Recreational deer hunters campaigned to have deer protected from the commercial interests that were wiping them out, and recreational hunters provide the majority of funds used to manage the deer and their habitat. If there had not been a lot of passion behind deer hunting in the US there would not now be deer, they would have gone the way of the passenger pigeon.
Anyway, I digress...
There are many places in the US where people have developed gated communities and they have had a small number of deer (kept for aesthetic reasons) breed up into huge numbers. The residents can't grow gardens or drive around their suburbs beyond crawling speed for fear of wrecking their car in a collision with deer. Bowhunters are invited into many of these communities to control the deer numbers. Many Americans hold that if the deer must die then there should be some traditional ethics applied to their death, this meaning that they would rather see hunters pursue their culture and use the deer for food than see the State or County Authorities deal with the problem and have sharpshooters kill the deer and dump them at the tip or turn them in to dog food.
Mick


Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.

Abraham Lincoln

User avatar
Nephew
Posts: 3046
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:28 pm
Location: Coochiemudlo Island,Moreton Bay, Qld.

Re: That is a lot of Deer.

#28 Post by Nephew » Sat Oct 29, 2011 3:15 pm

Thanks Mick, that clears it up for me. When I said benefit from urbanisation I was thinking like crows, or cats, or maybe the foxes of London have. But, as you say, that's successful adaptation rather than benefiting. It is a legitimate distinction, I agree.
The point is, in the past without recreational hunters campaigning they would have been severely endangered at best, extinct at worst, but now due changing conditions in various ways they have to be managed, and recreational hunters make a huge contribution to this. IMHO, that is a whole lot better than using 1080 or whatever on them, and ensures they are properly utilised once dead. Seems eminently sensible to me. :smile:
The crazy part, to me at least, is, no matter how much positive evidence you can provide,try convincing the current QLD Govt. of the value of allowing hunters to be involved in any kind of game management. It would be no less a waste of time and source of frustration than attempting a spot and stalk hunt on unicorns, matey. :roll: :wink:
At least as far as game management & conservation , there is a whole lot we could learn from our American friends I reckon.
Lately, if life were treating me any better, I'd be suspicious of it's motives!

Rock Steady
Posts: 87
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:42 pm

Re: That is a lot of Deer.

#29 Post by Rock Steady » Sat Oct 29, 2011 5:43 pm

Alex

I suspect you could never understand me :smile: .

I hunt because I am a hunter, plain and simple. I do not hunt for meat, pest control or trophies or any of the other reasons, it is simply who I am.

I ensure I hunt legally whenever I hunt and obey my own code of ethics of a quick clean kill.

Do any of use have the right to not let me live my life that way?

Michael

User avatar
jindydiver
Posts: 1329
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:06 pm
Location: ACT

Re: That is a lot of Deer.

#30 Post by jindydiver » Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:31 pm

You nailed it Michael, no matter what other reasons we can cite for why hunting is good (for the environment, the economy, etc') for a lot of us it comes down to a cultural imperative. We are hard wired to hunt and studies have been done that show humans denied the instinct to hunt substitute the hunt with other imperatives like amassing wealth or craving goods in a race of one-upmanship.

If you would like to read a bit about the subject there is a good essay here
http://www.cic-wildlife.org/index.php?id=18
Mick


Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.

Abraham Lincoln

Post Reply