Free Speech and a Fair Trial

[looseplucker]

Didnt want to threadjack - but some thoughts on a comment by Hazard:

Hazard, you are very wrong on free speech and a fair trial. Free speech is exceptionally alive and well in this country. Yesterday a bunch of people I fundamentally disagree with protested on the lawns of Parliament House. They were allowed to do so. And while I think their did little good for their argument that they can bring a protest to the nation's capital and yell and blither to their heart's content without interference shows in spades that their freedoms were not interfered with. So how is freedom of speech dead?

We'll ignore for the moment that the same bunch were very aggressive and intimidatory to a person who did not agree with them, but the overwhelming majority of folk got to sit around in the sun, wave juvenile placards, engage in idiotic chanting and get entertainment from taxpayer funded jesters. And I am free to poke fun at it. And I have.
Democracy and freedom of speech in action.

The other side of the argument can do exactly the same thing.

This coming Monday (and thank goodness I will be interstate) a veritable army of silly old farts and fartesses and fellow travellers will descend upon the Capital again - clog up the roads, cause a great deal of inconvenience but will receive a police escort. Why? Because they are exercising their right to freedom of speech and protest. Again, I disagree fundamentally with them. But they have the right to do it.

So how is freedom of speech dead? You need to get out and about more.

Every news outlet has a blog site where anyone can, within reason, comment. Leaving aside that the ones owned by News Limited tend to censor in their own favour " the basic principle is anyone can get on and have their say. Or they can start their own blog " as many have. Or they can go on twitter.

So where is freedom of speech dead?

As for a fair trial. Sorry where is the evidence that no-one gets a fair trial anymore? If anything, in a criminal proceding the balance is arguably so much in favour of excluding evidence against an accused, the only person not being treated fairly is the victim. As for civil proceedings, yes, lawyers can come at a cost, but in all my years of practice I have never seen anything but courts bending over backwards, even to the point of ignoring the law, to ensure that an unrepresented litigant is not disadvantaged. And I can tell you straight being a lawyer in a case where the other party is not represented is a pretty tough gig. Because any hint that you are trying to take advantage of the situation and you can and will get caned - and your colleagues will think it pretty ordinary as well.

The Family Court, yeah, that has a bit of a bad reputation when it comes to a lot of issues involving kids. But in my limited experience in that jurisdiction I never saw kids taken off anyone unless there was a damn good reason - and that also includes where I have been acting for Dad - and had to physically restrain him from doing what he'd been doing for years and was threatening to do in open court. And then he still whinged he never got a fair trial.

I saw a lot of that when doing DOCS cases. Really seedy stuff. Apparently it aint a fair trail when you lose your kids for being a boozed up druggo with rock spiders in the guest room. Kids got a fair trial but.

I have had clients complain they didn't get a fair trial in compensation proceedings. But gee, perhaps you shouldn't have been video-taped playing golf when you swore on your honour that you couldn't play and hadn't for years. And yes, lifting all those cement bags on a building site "just a favour for a mate.

Ironically there is one thing that can defeat a fair trial - freedom of speech - and that is where the media wants to be judge, jury and executioner and the trial has not even started yet.

Case in point - the Maddie Pulver melodrama. For a family that wants to get on with their life in private they seem to be making a bit of the media attention. A bloke has been arrested. The media report the family saying "they are glad it is over". ***? Presumption of innocence, anyone?

[bigbob]

Quite pertinent L/p and not what i for one could disagrre with in essence.Free speech here does allow all sorts to clamber up on their collective soapboxes for their ten minutes of fame.But that is, as you say, what makes us a free country.

[looseplucker]

I was trying to be impertinent.

[bigbob]

I was trying to be impertinent.

Thought so ,didnt you see the way i spelt disagree?

[looseplucker]

Yes. But the whole secret of baiting folk is not to bite yourself.

[hazard]

I was waiting for that!!

LP just wanted the bite from me

Gimme a moment John, dont rush me,

[looseplucker]

Well come on Wat Tyler. We're waiting.

[bigbob]

Hazard doesnt want to be left flappin' about on the bank.

[nathan77]

How anyone believes that the carbon tax is going to change the planet has got me stuffed we as a nation emit two fifths of f$&? all ,yet some how a tax is going to change the world give me a break

[looseplucker]

How anyone believes that the carbon tax is going to change the planet has got me stuffed we as a nation emit two fifths of f$&? all ,yet some how a tax is going to change the world give me a break

Yep - and flood and fire levies stop floods and fires. A gun buyback levy stops gun crime, a medicare levy keeps everyone fit and healthy.......

Per head of population this nation is up there with the worst polluters on the planet.

Mind you I would be far happier if we could have a genuine consensus on the positive side of reducing pollution.

Anyhow, thank goodness we can all have a say about it - even if the extremes of the argument do little credit to their side. I mean, if the high water mark of the anti-carbon tax lot is Lord Monckton and the rent a crowd the other day then the lefties will win this one in a canter.

[wishsong]

I love the fact , and take pride in the ability to able to dissent , scream and wail at the injustice in this country .... Injustice that pales in comparison to pretty much the rest of the world .
And trust me ... I wail with the best of them ! The political climate i this country has left me nowhere to turn ... can you sympathize with my isolation in my Libertarian /Conservative/JustatadSocialistUndercertaincircumstances views when surrounded by such a resounding lack of common sense ...

But by and large we get by ok ... there is freedom of speech and there is justice . It may not be everyone's idea of such but its working ... kinda ... sorta ... maybe . Years of working in welfare and a solicitors office leave me happily undecided .....
But hey ... we don't have soccer hooligans burning shops ... we do have o'l school conservatives waving tasteless , intimidatory and somewhat offensive placards in Canberra ..and we have the ability to watch such subversive stuff on TV .

The carbon tax is in my mind a bit silly ... when there is so much more we can do to avert the general pollution we are all responsible for everyday ...
But at the end of the day ... in few months from now I'll mosey on down to my polling booth and draw a big ol' middle finger on the voting slip because I can ... won't make a difference one groat ... but i still have a choice in what I say

But try doing it in Libya

[GrahameA]

Afternoo All

How anyone believes that the carbon tax is going to change the planet has got me stuffed we as a nation emit two fifths of f$&? all ,yet some how a tax is going to change the world give me a break

I must have missed something here. Who was the person who said that it was going to save the world.

My understanding was that it's purpose was essentially twofold:

* it is a tad hard to lobby for some sort of CO2 reduction if you (as a country) are doing nothing.

* By imposing a cost on CO2 emissions (on some) it would encourage them to refine their processes so to decrease the amount they produced. And if they couldn't the the price increase would assist in decreasing consumption or make alternatives more financially viable.

Personally, my view view is if we are go into have a Carbon Tax them it should apply to all producers equally. It does not make rational sense to only penalise a few.

From my viewpoint it is a bit like the Ozone layer issue. No one was interested until people came to the realisation that unless something was done people were going to start suffering increased rates of skin cancer, etc.

[hazard]

The Family Court, yeah, that has a bit of a bad reputation when it comes to a lot of issues involving kids. But in my limited experience in that jurisdiction I never saw kids taken off anyone unless there was a damn good reason – and that also includes where I have been acting for Dad – and had to physically restrain him from doing what he’d been doing for years and was threatening to do in open court. And then he still whinged he never got a fair trial.

LP you can lay all the cases at my feet but Like her or hate her "Pauline Hansen" still went to jail! That Kangaroo court session she got dragged through made Skippy look like Sir Les Patterson visiting a sleezy rub and tug palour!!

Hazard, you are very wrong on free speech and a fair trial. Free speech is exceptionally alive and well in this country. Yesterday a bunch of people I fundamentally disagree with protested on the lawns of Parliament House. They were allowed to do so. And while I think their did little good for their argument that they can bring a protest to the nation's capital and yell and blither to their heart's content without interference shows in spades that their freedoms were not interfered with. So how is freedom of speech dead?

LP your dead right but it "Free Speech" is only dead because we choose to kill it!!Our entire culture is "comply, conform, and cut the tall poppy" !!!! We even vote the same organised criminals in year after year!!!! I firmly believe "Ausies" have their testicles amputated at birth! We completely surrender out right to stand up for ourselves!

nathan77 wrote:
How anyone believes that the carbon tax is going to change the planet has got me stuffed we as a nation emit two fifths of f$&? all ,yet some how a tax is going to change the world give me a break


Yep - and flood and fire levies stop floods and fires. A gun buyback levy stops gun crime, a medicare levy keeps everyone fit and healthy.......

Per head of population this nation is up there with the worst polluters on the planet.

Mind you I would be far happier if we could have a genuine consensus on the positive side of reducing pollution.

Yep that about sums it up for me , but we are still a bunch of sackless pushovers for letting it happen right in front of our noses!

[wishsong]

Yep that about sums it up for me , but we are still a bunch of sackless pushovers for letting it happen right in front of our noses! [/quote]


Democracy is a fickle lady ... but always a welcome one .

Until someone can name a better , fairer and more transparent system I'll take her warts and all, every day of the week .

[Nephew]

What a surprise! Hazard supports the likes of ol' "Undiluted Evil" Hanson!
( About as much a surprise as finding out I despise her! )
Come on , mate! That goose had one, and only one, policy- "Malevolence For All"

I got nothing else to add here, Johns doing a fine job on his own .

[UPTHETOP]

If I stood up on the parliment steps and prepared a speach to the people of what I really thought of how I am being treated by the government, and what I really thought about equal rights in this country along with my own personal opinions on what we should do with our justice system, Yeh they would let me start my speach but it wouldn'd be long before the big guys come out and dragged me away. Unless the media was there and then they would dress me down with the red neck label.
I dont call it freedom of speach when in my own country Im to scared to speak my own mind for fear of being locked up.

Cheers Wayno

[hazard]

So now I am a rabbid supporter? Cool glad you told me

LP you can lay all the cases at my feet but Like her or hate her "Pauline Hansen" still went to jail! That Kangaroo court session she got dragged through made Skippy look like Sir Les Patterson visiting a sleezy rub and tug palour!!

Hazard

[Nephew]

Hey Hazard,I'm only giggin' ya, you know that. I didn't say you were rabid, anyway! Mad bugger, sure, but never rabid, mate!

Thing is, you have a right to support who, or whatever you want. One thing bout the Hanson phenomenon that disgusted me was that, as much as I thought she was wrong on everything, I backed her right to say what she believed. What I didn't like was that mobs of folk that would probably identify as being "Left" in perspective did all they could to shut down meetings where she would speak. Those protests were no less feral than the ones held in Canberra lately- people have every right to speak no matter how wrong they may be, or we may think they are. NO-ONE had the right to try to shut her up, or shut her down. That aspect disgusted me. Debate those you disagree with by all means, but don't deny them the right to speak. That's Democracy as I understand it.






She was still wrong about everything, though!

[hazard]

OK note to self "Dont take Moreton fishing either"
Hazard

[Jeffro]

really its clear as day that the only reason they are trying to impose the tax is so they can "bring the budget back to surplus" like they proposed they would by 2012\13.
Because that is the only possible way they could do it.
They are desperate for taxation and they are ruining this country.
They should have to wear balaclavas

Gillard is gonna go down in flames .

[Nephew]

I've got little doubt the Govt. will get done next election too, Jeffro.But, and I say this with sincere respect, far from being clear, that's just simply not accurate on the carbon tax! Go to the websites provided and read. http://www.cleanenergyfuture.gov.au/ http://www.climatechange.gov.au/ It goes to job creation, green industry stimulus and rebates. Had The Opposition backed the eminently sensible Super Profits Tax on mining tycoons the budget would be in perpetual surplus, blame Abbott and his little cabal of Lunar Right desperadoes for that little stink, mate. I just pray to...whatever... that Malcolm Turnbull has wrested control of the Coalition back from ol' Popeye Abbott before it's too late and darkness descends on us all! I don't want this country being run by Cardinal George Pell, and that's what will happen if the Mad Monk ever gets his bum on P.M. leather. he wont make a move without Pell, and his minders in The Coalition, giving approval. Sad thing is, genuine haters like Nick "I'm just better then you, ok?" Minchen, Andrew "We know best, never mind the science" Robb and Eric " Die Fuhrer" Arbetz wont accept the best man for the job. They are Hell bent kissing the bums of Big Capitalism, and Big Capitalism is hell bent on punishing us for rejecting Work Choices. That they would ascend a man of as low calibre as Abbott to the Top Job to make sure they have a compliant minion is an indicator of just how much contempt they hold for us.

Hope you blokes are ready for the resurrection of Work Choices.

Seriously fellas, don't let blind hatred or even the hint of misogyny I sense in some of the bile directed towards the current P.M., lead you into catastrophe. Yes, she is pretty shaky, yes she did take the job in a dishonourable and rotten manner originally (and it wasn't even necessary , nor good politics, it was a fiasco and remains so), yes she did barely win the last election (but remember, half of Australia voted her way or it wouldn't have been so close) and yes, her accent does grate but for Petes sake, Abbott will be the worst disaster Australian politics will ever endure!! This man is a hater, he has NO POLICIES, he has NO IDEAS, he has NO PRINCIPLES, he has NO SCRUPLES!! Do the research, go and check him out right back to student politics, he is NOT Prime Ministerial material, he just isn't! He has proven he is not capable of understanding the complexities of climate science many times. No matter what he says now, it is on record that he is a flat Earther on Global Warming-despite the solid, peer reviewed science based evidence. He blows with the wind, Crikey, just this week he changed his position on Coal Seam gas companies entering private land twice. When with property owners he was all for them denying access to these companies, as soon as he got back on his circus plane, he suddenly changed his mind. Why? Did he take a call from his masters and controllers, the Mining Tycoon/Robber Barons? Or was he just lying in the first place?
At the same time, do the research on Turnbull. If we must have a coalition Govt, he is made of Prime Ministerial Material. he will keep the more rabid members of the Coalition in their cages, and actually work at what's best for the nation, as he has displayed in his willingness to work with the Govt. when he was Opposition Leader, unlike Abbott, who will destroy our kids futures for his own personal ambitions.

The current Govt may be lacking, but Abbott will absolutely devastate, indeed totally destroy, this nation in so many ways it's frightening. Don't fall for this Murdoch Media driven campaign to inflict this fool on us all,tell Rupert to get stuffed and select your own leaders on based on the facts you have researched. If you do so, you will see, ABBOTT IS NOT THE MAN FOR THIS JOB, HE'S JUST NOT UP TO IT.

[RICKO]

The current Govt may be lacking, but Abbott will absolutely devastate, indeed totally destroy, this nation in so many ways it's frightening. Don't fall for this Murdoch Media driven campaign to inflict this fool on us all,tell Rupert to get stuffed and select your own leaders on based on the facts you have researched. If you do so, you will see, ABBOTT IS NOT THE MAN FOR THIS JOB, HE'S JUST NOT UP TO IT.

Well this is your opinion i guess, any one would be better than the idiots we have now, i suppose you voted for KRUDD and JULIAR also.....if so then you would definately not like HEY ABBOTT....and this current government-coalition of greens has not devastated this country???? go figure.....


Rick

[Nephew]

No Ricko, they have not. In fact, Australia is travelling better than most OECD member nations right now. Here you go, find out for yourself- http://www.dfat.gov.au/oecd/index.html In fact, due to the Rudd Govts. timely economic stimulus package we are the envy of most other economies. Do the research and go figure THAT. All this bleating and whinging about how bad it is just shows how ill-informed those that rely on the Murdoch dominated media for information are. In fact, a lot of economists agree that the only real danger to our economy is all this pessimistic talk of alleged failure from the uninformed.
KRUDD and Ju-liar? Really? That's your idea of discussion/debate of important political issues? That's the best you've got? Gee how original. Alan Jones' vile rhetoric and vitriolic propaganda has no effect on you, does it Ricko? Seems your consideration of important issues is about as deep as his. My vote is my business, but I have no problem telling you that yes, I voted for the best candidate with the policies that are closest to what I think would be best for the nation in my opinion, as any responsible voter does.The last two elections that has been Labor candidates, but if Malcolm Turnbull were leader of the Opposition next election I would be very happy to vote Coalition. I like to have intelligent, contemplative,statesmen-like individuals in important positions like P.M., hence I voted to get Rudd up in 2007, not misogynistic bullies with rat cunning substituting intellectual integrity, like Abbott.
There is no mess... excepting the deliberate sabotaging of good policy we are having to endure from the opposition and their Capitalist media running dogs... we are doing just fine. To say otherwise is to be ignorant of the facts, simple as that.

Ask any American dealing with the economic aftermath of the Bush Junta how bad things are here in Aus.

[RICKO]

No Ricko, they have not. In fact, Australia is travelling better than most OECD member nations right now. Here you go, find out for yourself- http://www.dfat.gov.au/oecd/index.html In fact, due to the Rudd Govts. timely economic stimulus package we are the envy of most other economies. Do the research and go figure THAT. All this bleating and whinging about how bad it is just shows how ill-informed those that rely on the Murdoch dominated media for information are. In fact, a lot of economists agree that the only real danger to our economy is all this pessimistic talk of alleged failure from the uninformed.
KRUDD and Ju-liar? Really? That's your idea of discussion/debate of important political issues? That's the best you've got? Gee how original. Alan Jones' vile rhetoric and vitriolic propaganda has no effect on you, does it Ricko? Seems your consideration of important issues is about as deep as his. My vote is my business, but I have no problem telling you that yes, I voted for the best candidate with the policies that are closest to what I think would be best for the nation in my opinion, as any responsible voter does.The last two elections that has been Labor candidates, but if Malcolm Turnbull were leader of the Opposition next election I would be very happy to vote Coalition. I like to have intelligent, contemplative,statesmen-like individuals in important positions like P.M., hence I voted to get Rudd up in 2007, not misogynistic bullies with rat cunning substituting intellectual integrity, like Abbott.
There is no mess... excepting the deliberate sabotaging of good policy we are having to endure from the opposition and their Capitalist media running dogs... we are doing just fine. To say otherwise is to be ignorant of the facts, simple as that.

Ask any American dealing with the economic aftermath of the Bush Junta how bad things are here in Aus.

Yep no worries mate, you must be the publicity officer for the labor party,such big words you use, Malcolm Turnball , now there is a good choice, a one time member of the labor party, intelligent people as PM ,well that leaves out Juliar , but then Krudd was intelligent just ask him..

[Stickbow Hunter]

Ok, enough is enough; I try and not censor content on the site too much but this thread is has gone down hill fast IMO. I think the insults and derogatory comments in some of these posts is more than over the top. I think some of you need to tone down how you put across your political views.

To be honest I and other members are getting pretty tired of political threads (I have received a number PM's and comments from members complaining about there being so many political debates on the site in recent time) . Surely there are some more interesting things to discuss such as Trad Bowhunting and Archery topics.

Anyway this thread is now closed.

Jeff