The opponents of hunting and archery will be up in arms...

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robmoore
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The opponents of hunting and archery will be up in arms...

#1 Post by robmoore » Wed May 04, 2011 11:32 am

I have just found this article in Bathurst's Western Advocate

http://www.westernadvocate.com.au/news/ ... 50373.aspx

It's a sobering thought to be reminded that our community contains idiots such as the person who did this.

Bob

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Re: The opponents of hunting and archery will be up in arms.

#2 Post by TomMcDonald » Wed May 04, 2011 11:40 am

robmoore wrote:I have just found this article in Bathurst's Western Advocate

http://www.westernadvocate.com.au/news/ ... 50373.aspx

It's a sobering thought to be reminded that our community contains idiots such as the person who did this.

Bob
Yep it's a sad thing to see.

They should have sent someone with at least an ounce of competence to despatch the animal though.
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Re: The opponents of hunting and archery will be up in arms.

#3 Post by looseplucker » Wed May 04, 2011 12:34 pm

And the silence from the national associations who should be working the media condemning this - as well as posting it through their sites is deafening.

It is not enough to preach to the converted.
Are you well informed or is your news limited?

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Re: The opponents of hunting and archery will be up in arms.

#4 Post by looseplucker » Wed May 04, 2011 4:26 pm

Further to my last - you can post comments on that thread. I posted as follows:

It is actually illegal to shoot native animals with a bow and arrow - as opposed to hunting feral species with them - yet another piece of hooliganism from a moron that will of course reflect very badly on legit archery enthusiasts - even those that only shoot target. I am aware that some archery groups do education campaigns on this sort of thing, but the national associations really need to get involved in stamping this out - and not just by preaching to the converted
Posted by John, 4/05/2011 12:37:15 PM, on Western Advocate
Are you well informed or is your news limited?

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Re: The opponents of hunting and archery will be up in arms.

#5 Post by dmm » Tue May 10, 2011 9:17 am

looseplucker wrote:And the silence from the national associations who should be working the media condemning this - as well as posting it through their sites is deafening.

It is not enough to preach to the converted.
I read the newspaper comments, yours, as well as the later one which expresses some dismay that the 'ecologist' seems to have been taking potshots at the wounded Roo also.

I'm wondering what you would really expect National Archery groups to do? AA would presumably say they promote archery as a target sport, 3Daaa, would probably say they are all about virtual hunting on foam targets, leaving the ABA.

The ABA would probably say it is against their code of conduct which every member has agreed to, but there is no way of knowing that the archery who did this was a member of any of these groups, and statistically is more likely not to have been. One could also argue that a vehement response from a national organisation might take a story from a state based paper (sorry I'm not familiar with WA papers) and get it picked up at a national level. Probably a worse outcome for all archers.

I really don't know what the answer is. I guess the real problem here is that the bow, as a hunting weapon is more likely to wound than kill if used by the unskilled and uneducated at longer ranges. I suspect if the same anti-social idiot had used a rifle to wound the Roo, it would more likely have died, and even if it hadn't, I suspect it was the novelty of having an arrow visibly embedded in it head that made for the newspaper story.

Actually preaching to the converted could be the best solution here. Most bowhunters are going to know at least a couple of other hunters, and peer pressure or condemnation might actually have more of a behavioural impact than anything else. By starting this thread you are reinforcing in all our minds, that this is the wrong way to do things, and logically that should flow through to others we might speak to or come into contact with. Well done.
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Re: The opponents of hunting and archery will be up in arms.

#6 Post by bigbob » Tue May 10, 2011 10:57 am

Dmm Have to agree with all your comments. It is an unfortunate part of the fickle way of life we currently experience that any thing of a contenscious nature will attract public interest , and 'good news' stories languish on back pages. ABA as the Australian 'body' for bowhunting in general is on a hiding to nothing regarding these regressive idiots that blaze across our newpaper pages with lurid headlines. In almost all cases they are not members , are poorly skilled at the use of their equipment, and have little training or education in the ethical treatment of FERAL animals. ABA is constantly having to defend its own members actions because of these idiots. I repeat good news like the recent World Bowhunting Champuionship Games held here in Australia is ho- hum, but get some mental midget performimg anti social actions and it becomes a hot item.
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Re: The opponents of hunting and archery will be up in arms.

#7 Post by Rock Steady » Tue May 10, 2011 12:17 pm

looseplucker wrote:And the silence from the national associations who should be working the media condemning this - as well as posting it through their sites is deafening.
I agree you would think SSAA would have done something about this by now :P .

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Re: The opponents of hunting and archery will be up in arms.

#8 Post by looseplucker » Tue May 10, 2011 1:19 pm

dmm wrote:
looseplucker wrote:And the silence from the national associations who should be working the media condemning this - as well as posting it through their sites is deafening.

It is not enough to preach to the converted.

I'm wondering what you would really expect National Archery groups to do? AA would presumably say they promote archery as a target sport, 3Daaa, would probably say they are all about virtual hunting on foam targets, leaving the ABA.

The ABA would probably say it is against their code of conduct which every member has agreed to, but there is no way of knowing that the archery who did this was a member of any of these groups, and statistically is more likely not to have been. One could also argue that a vehement response from a national organisation might take a story from a state based paper (sorry I'm not familiar with WA papers) and get it picked up at a national level. Probably a worse outcome for all archers
It is all about perception. What we have here is some nutter doing damn foolish things with a bow. That it was at a native animal is one thing, but at the end of the day it is irresponsible conduct as well as being illegal. It doesnt matter what the specific charter of each organisation is, when someone is doing daft things with a bow it affects all archers - or at least has the real potential to affect all archers. Therefore there ought be a unified front from the organisations condemning hooliganistic and illegal behaviour where and when it happens.
Are you well informed or is your news limited?

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Re: The opponents of hunting and archery will be up in arms.

#9 Post by longbowinfected » Tue May 10, 2011 8:44 pm

The silliest aspects of this sad event are caused by the ecologist taking a camera man along, disturbing the animals, using the tranqu gun incorrectly, discharging a rifle probably contrary to regs in a built up area and making a mess of it probably using to small a pill though probably with a view on risk management. All parties involved acted inappropriately.
Do you think the ecologist would accept that?

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Re: The opponents of hunting and archery will be up in arms.

#10 Post by dmm » Tue May 10, 2011 9:17 pm

longbowinfected wrote: Do you think the ecologist would accept that?

Kev
I'd imagine many of the readers of this fine publication would have been outraged that the 'ecologist' shot the root at all (is that even legal?). I'm sure most would have preferred to see the animal captured in a silk butterfly net, treated by a veterinarian, nursed back to health in some volunteers lounge room, then released back into the wild, perhaps with a radio tracking collar, so they could make a followup documentary.

Of course I have a vivid imagination.
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Re: The opponents of hunting and archery will be up in arms.

#11 Post by wishsong » Wed May 11, 2011 10:41 am

Of course I have a vivid imagination
:lol:

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Re: The opponents of hunting and archery will be up in arms.

#12 Post by TomMcDonald » Wed May 11, 2011 10:44 am

dmm wrote:
longbowinfected wrote: Do you think the ecologist would accept that?

Kev
I'd imagine many of the readers of this fine publication would have been outraged that the 'ecologist' shot the root at all (is that even legal?). I'm sure most would have preferred to see the animal captured in a silk butterfly net, treated by a veterinarian, nursed back to health in some volunteers lounge room, then released back into the wild, perhaps with a radio tracking collar, so they could make a followup documentary.

Of course I have a vivid imagination.
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Re: The opponents of hunting and archery will be up in arms.

#13 Post by Rock Steady » Wed May 11, 2011 12:46 pm

It is all about perception. What we have here is some nutter doing damn foolish things with a bow. That it was at a native animal is one thing, but at the end of the day it is irresponsible conduct as well as being illegal. It doesnt matter what the specific charter of each organisation is, when someone is doing daft things with a bow it affects all archers - or at least has the real potential to affect all archers.
looseplucker

Do you honestly believe that just because one or two individuals do something wrong with a bow that the general public are dumb enough to tar all Bowhunters with the same brush?

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Re: The opponents of hunting and archery will be up in arms.

#14 Post by jindydiver » Wed May 11, 2011 12:54 pm

Rock Steady wrote:
It is all about perception. What we have here is some nutter doing damn foolish things with a bow. That it was at a native animal is one thing, but at the end of the day it is irresponsible conduct as well as being illegal. It doesnt matter what the specific charter of each organisation is, when someone is doing daft things with a bow it affects all archers - or at least has the real potential to affect all archers.
looseplucker

Do you honestly believe that just because one or two individuals do something wrong with a bow that the general public are dumb enough to tar all Bowhunters with the same brush?
Death by a thousand cuts....
Just today I have read about two separate incidents that occurred in the last couple of days. :(

What is stopping someone like the ABA sending in a press release pointing out that the people who do this are not representative of the rest of us, are not law abiding citizens (unlike the rest of us) and should be found and prosecuted to the full extent of the law?
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Re: The opponents of hunting and archery will be up in arms.

#15 Post by dmm » Wed May 11, 2011 2:33 pm

Rock Steady wrote:
It is all about perception. What we have here is some nutter doing damn foolish things with a bow. That it was at a native animal is one thing, but at the end of the day it is irresponsible conduct as well as being illegal. It doesnt matter what the specific charter of each organisation is, when someone is doing daft things with a bow it affects all archers - or at least has the real potential to affect all archers.
looseplucker

Do you honestly believe that just because one or two individuals do something wrong with a bow that the general public are dumb enough to tar all Bowhunters with the same brush?
I think most people's perception of bowhunter's is going to come from their personal experience of bowhunters & hunters in general. To Joe Public, rifle, shotgun, bow it's all the same. I suggest people are more comfortable with fish hunters, more commonly known as fishermen, because more people know one. I think this is less true of other forms of hunting, less people know a hunter, or know that they know a hunter. Hunters talk less about hunting. I've never overheard a conversation about hunting in the office, but I have heard people talking about fishing.

Further, if you don't have personal experience of hunters, I think you will form your impressions from the media.
News media is going to have stories like this one, because it has shock value and pictures. Entertainment media like 'Getaway' is going to avoid promoting Safari's because they are controversial. Soap's will likely avoid them for the same reason. Are there any hunters portrayed in today's Soaps? Does Summer Bay or Neighbours have a hunter in the cast?

I think it extremely likely that the general public will stereotype hunters, and the actions of this person in W.A. will figure in that stereotype for many people.

One last thing, I don't think there is a quick fix an organisation like the ABA could do here. Writing a letter to the newspaper condemning the action isn't likely to make Joe Public feel any different. They'll remember the story about the Roo getting shot in the head, they won't remember, that in addition to being illegal, some guy from some related organisation said it was wrong.

Of course this is only my opinion.
Last edited by dmm on Wed May 11, 2011 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The opponents of hunting and archery will be up in arms.

#16 Post by wishsong » Wed May 11, 2011 2:38 pm

Rocksteady ...
[quote="
looseplucker

Do you honestly believe that just because one or two individuals do something wrong with a bow that the general public are dumb enough to tar all Bowhunters with the same brush?[/quote]

... Yes ... absolutely ...

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Re: The opponents of hunting and archery will be up in arms.

#17 Post by GrahameA » Fri May 13, 2011 8:25 am

Morning All.

Picked the up from a comment on another forum. Just think about the perception this gives to people who live in the city or even worse young kids. Is this an example of the wrong message being given out?

Newspaper headline.
Rabbit Rambo leads one-man war against bunny plague
Newspaper article - http://manly-daily.whereilive.com.au/ne ... ny-plague/

Video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A86tVvd21lw
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Re: The opponents of hunting and archery will be up in arms.

#18 Post by TomMcDonald » Fri May 13, 2011 8:36 am

I'd punch that journalist on the nose.
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Re: The opponents of hunting and archery will be up in arms.

#19 Post by jindydiver » Fri May 13, 2011 8:45 am

GrahameA wrote:. Just think about the perception this gives to people who live in the city or even worse young kids.
Perhaps that rabbits can be killed effectively and humanely with a bow and that rabbit meat did indeed come from a rabbit?

Anti's are going to react negatively every time, you can't live your life hiding from them.
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Re: The opponents of hunting and archery will be up in arms.

#20 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Fri May 13, 2011 9:39 am

That was one of the better videos I have seen to be honest; perhaps the rabbit getting up and starting to run could have been left out but it probably dropped just out of shot. The problem is most city people have never seen an animal killed and are shocked by the fact they often don't just drop motionless even though they are already dead.

I do hate the way Bowhunting equipment makers name some of their products - that certainly doesn't give a good impression IMO.
jindydiver wrote:
GrahameA wrote:. Just think about the perception this gives to people who live in the city or even worse young kids.
Perhaps that rabbits can be killed effectively and humanely with a bow and that rabbit meat did indeed come from a rabbit?

Anti's are going to react negatively every time, you can't live your life hiding from them.
I agree Jindy!!!

I think it is a shame that the biggest percentage of kids don't get out and see this kind of thing and how things really are in the real world - out bush, on working stock properties and where their food really comes from etc.

That was pathetic journalism IMO but it is what we have come to expect now days. :roll:

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Re: The opponents of hunting and archery will be up in arms.

#21 Post by looseplucker » Fri May 13, 2011 10:36 am

Rock Steady wrote:
It is all about perception. What we have here is some nutter doing damn foolish things with a bow. That it was at a native animal is one thing, but at the end of the day it is irresponsible conduct as well as being illegal. It doesnt matter what the specific charter of each organisation is, when someone is doing daft things with a bow it affects all archers - or at least has the real potential to affect all archers.
looseplucker

Do you honestly believe that just because one or two individuals do something wrong with a bow that the general public are dumb enough to tar all Bowhunters with the same brush?

Yep - particularly if the only ones doing the talking in the media are those who want that brush spattering tar around.
Are you well informed or is your news limited?

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Re: The opponents of hunting and archery will be up in arms.

#22 Post by jindydiver » Fri May 13, 2011 11:08 am

my kids know exactly how their meat gets to their plate
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And they even help with the practice
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:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: The opponents of hunting and archery will be up in arms.

#23 Post by looseplucker » Fri May 13, 2011 4:43 pm

Awwww, cute Mick, that bunny is sleeping.....
Are you well informed or is your news limited?

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Re: The opponents of hunting and archery will be up in arms.

#24 Post by Rock Steady » Sat May 14, 2011 7:22 am

It is all about perception. What we have here is some nutter doing damn foolish things with a bow. That it was at a native animal is one thing, but at the end of the day it is irresponsible conduct as well as being illegal. It doesnt matter what the specific charter of each organisation is, when someone is doing daft things with a bow it affects all archers - or at least has the real potential to affect all archers.
looseplucker
Question
Do you honestly believe that just because one or two individuals do something wrong with a bow that the general public are dumb enough to tar all Bowhunters with the same brush?
Answer
Yep - particularly if the only ones doing the talking in the media are those who want that brush spattering tar around.
From the comments I can see that it is human nature rightly or wrongly tar entire groups for the actions of one or two people. I can also see how upset we Bowhunters can get when we are unfairly tarred due to the actions of some people and find it hard to understand how the general public can be so dumb as to tar an entire group this way.

So can anyone explain why we are stupid enough to tar ABA the same way because 1 or 2 individuals do the wrong thing? The bulk of the memberships are honest hard working Australians giving their time and effort freely to help promote and protect archery and Bowhunting Australia wide.

Michael

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Re: The opponents of hunting and archery will be up in arms.

#25 Post by Rock Steady » Sat May 14, 2011 7:29 am

My little angle :D , I can not imagine not being able to take our kids bush.
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Re: The opponents of hunting and archery will be up in arms.

#26 Post by jindydiver » Sat May 14, 2011 8:33 am

Rock Steady wrote:
So can anyone explain why we are stupid enough to tar ABA the same way because 1 or 2 individuals do the wrong thing? The bulk of the memberships are honest hard working Australians giving their time and effort freely to help promote and protect archery and Bowhunting Australia wide.

Michael
Because humans are intrinsically bigoted and always look to group others and label them. It isn't stupidity is just the way we are wired and we all do it unless we try consciously not to. It is also why people are likely to see us all as criminals when they see someone with a bow commit a criminal act. This is why it is important to get good news into the papers and to respond to bad news with statements that point out the differences between the criminals and the rest of us. Leaving these bad stories to stand unanswered just reinforces peoples tendency to see us as one homogeneous group, bowhunters or archers who are those guys who whack arrows into roos and leave them hopping around the local park.
Just think about this in your own life. When you are at the shops and a little rice burner pulls and a bunch of kids with their hats on backwards and their bum cracks showing because their pants wont stay up gets out, I bet you make assumptions about them instantly based on your past experiences and knowledge of kids dressed the same. The public watching TV or reading the paper get impressions of bowhunter or archers from all those bad news stories and then when you introduce yourself as a bowhunter you can bet your life they make some assumptions about you.

I agree with looseplucker. Effort should be made to get replies in to the papers when bad stuff happens to differentiate us from the dogs who could care less about our pastime being banned.
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Re: The opponents of hunting and archery will be up in arms.

#27 Post by Rock Steady » Sat May 14, 2011 9:01 am

Jindy I have been trying in my less then subtle way to show members that they have been doing to ABA exactly what we complain about the general public doing to us bowhunter's.

Am I wasting my time?

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Re: The opponents of hunting and archery will be up in arms.

#28 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Sat May 14, 2011 9:17 am

Rock Steady wrote:So can anyone explain why we are stupid enough to tar ABA the same way because 1 or 2 individuals do the wrong thing? The bulk of the memberships are honest hard working Australians giving their time and effort freely to help promote and protect archery and Bowhunting Australia wide.

Michael
Rock Steady wrote:Jindy I have been trying in my less then subtle way to show members that they have been doing to ABA exactly what we complain about the general public doing to us bowhunter's.

Am I wasting my time?
Michael,

Really?

Just who are you calling stupid regarding their opinions of ABA? I can assure you I am not tarring ABA in the same way as you put it. I have opinions, valid opinions IMO, regarding ABA which I have formed over some thirty years during which time I was a member for some fourteen years and also spent a number of years on a Zone executive committee and attended National AGM's etc. Even to this present time I have not seen too much that has impressed me about how ABA is being run. I do agree however that there certainly are some nice people who are members of ABA.

Somewhere recently I think you, maybe someone else, also mentioned how ABA was at the forefront of the fight for Bowhunting in WA; from my understanding I'm not so sure that it can said that they lead the way; took over and then belittled others (who were fighting for WA Bowhunters rights from the very start of it) in the process better describes it. :roll:

Great to see your daughter enjoying the bush and Bowhunting too and good onya for spending that time with her. :D

Jeff

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Re: The opponents of hunting and archery will be up in arms.

#29 Post by dmm » Sat May 14, 2011 9:29 am

Rock Steady wrote:From the comments I can see that it is human nature rightly or wrongly tar entire groups for the actions of one or two people. I can also see how upset we Bowhunters can get when we are unfairly tarred due to the actions of some people and find it hard to understand how the general public can be so dumb as to tar an entire group this way.

So can anyone explain why we are stupid enough to tar ABA the same way because 1 or 2 individuals do the wrong thing? The bulk of the memberships are honest hard working Australians giving their time and effort freely to help promote and protect archery and Bowhunting Australia wide.

Michael
I hope your understanding of human nature isn't really based reading this forum :)

I think the point you are trying to make is that judging a group (Bowhunters or ABA) on the actions of a few individuals is wrong.

First let me say, I'm an ABA member, and from what I've seen (at a club level) they are a fine organisation, no better or worse than many sporting or interest based clubs I've experienced in the past.

It does seem that some other members of this forum, have had dealings with the ABA which have been less satisfactory. I don't understand the details of those misgivings. Those involved have not posted the details. It sounds as though someone got charged for some bowhunting related activity and was not supported by their bowhunting club.

The assumption you've made, is that the readers of ozbow, make up another group, and that entire group is down on the ABA. That's not correct. I ,for example, am not.

You are comparing the actions of one bowhunter (ie the person who shot the roo) as a reflection on all bowhunters, with the actions of one (or two) elected ABA officials as a reflection on the ABA.

I think it's much more reasonable to take the the actions of the elected leaders of an organisation as representative of that organisation, than the actions of a individual bowhunter as representative of all bowhunters.

Does that explain it?

Jindydiver; Nice pictures of your daughter hunting up north. What's the story behind cuddling the piglets though?
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Re: The opponents of hunting and archery will be up in arms.

#30 Post by Rock Steady » Sat May 14, 2011 10:09 am

Jeff
Just who are you calling stupid regarding their opinions of ABA?
Jeff, relax. I never implied or said that anyones opinions on ABA where stupid.

I feel tarring an entire group for the actions of a few is stupid. If you don't agree then maybe we can agree to disagree on that.
I can assure you I am not tarring ABA in the same way as you put it.


I never named you or anyone else personally Jeff but if you read back through a few of this years threads you can see where members do exactly what I described.

Can you honestly say you haven't seen it?
I have opinions, valid opinions IMO, regarding ABA which I have formed over some thirty years during which time I was a member for some fourteen years and also spent a number of years on a Zone executive committee and attended National AGM's etc. Even to this present time I have not seen too much that has impressed me about how ABA is being run.


Fair enough, maybe we should start a thread on what things we would like to see changed within ABA to make it into an organisation that bowhunter's would happily join. At this stage there is no other organisation's offering anything directly for bowhunter's so why can't we try and fix the one we have?
I do agree however that there certainly are some nice people who are members of ABA.
I blushing :P .
Somewhere recently I think you, maybe someone else, also mentioned how ABA was at the forefront of the fight for Bowhunting in WA
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First, I have no real information other then what I have read on forums so I don't think it was me.
from my understanding I'm not so sure that it can said that they lead the way; took over and then belittled others (who were fighting for WA Bowhunters rights from the very start of it) in the process better describes it
It is a fact of life that people see the same things differently, what one person means with respect another can take as an insult.

As an experienced trad shooter who has helped teach others you must have experienced how when you you see someone doing something the wrong way (cock feather in) that you have to be careful you do not insult them when you point out what you believe is the correct way to do it (cock feather out).

There has to be line for when they step in.

Which of the following people do ABA help when the person is charged with something?

Non-ABA Member shots pet cat
Non-ABA Member shots feral cat
Non-ABA Member shots a cat that he/she is not sure if it is a feral or a pet.
Non-ABA Member shots pet dog
Non-ABA Member shots feral dog
Non-ABA Member shots a dog that he/she is not sure if it is a feral or a pet.
Non-ABA Member shots pet horse
Non-ABA Member shots feral horse
Non-ABA Member shots a horse that he/she is not sure if it is a feral or a pet.
Non-ABA Member shots a native (Kangaroo etc)
ABA Member shots pet cat
ABA Member shots feral cat
ABA Member shots a cat that he/she is not sure if it is a feral or a pet.
ABA Member shots pet dog
ABA Member shots feral dog
ABA Member shots a dog that he/she is not sure if it is a feral or a pet.
ABA Member shots pet horse
ABA Member shots feral horse
ABA Member shots a horse that he/she is not sure if it is a feral or a pet.
ABA Member shots a native (Kangaroo etc)

Lastly, it is a beautiful Saturday morning, what the hell are we all doing inside on the computer?

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