hiya Guys and Girls
thought i'd hit you with this one as i'm really interested in your responses. I like this forum as opposed to archery talk and archery forum as the level of maturity here is higher and more thought is given to answers than the other two major forums, sometimes too passionate, but never immature!
I'd like you to think about a problem that was presented to me some 5 weeks ago and my advice was sought by a friend of mine i've known for 45 years. Now, when i ask you to think about the problem, it is the problem i want you to think about, not the morality of the situation and I will clarify that later.
My friend is 55 and married 32 years with grown up kids. He meets and befriends a woman of 24 who has been in a commited relationship for 10 years. The friendship grows and blossoms for 3 months and becomes sexual and has been in place for some 9 months. He goes overseas on holiday with his wife for 3 weeks and comes across a piece of jewellery that he likes and would like to buy for his girlfriend. He talks to her about it and explains he would like to buy it for her (he has not bought her any gifts until then) because he loves her, she is his girlfriend and he would like to "compensate his inability to spend more time with her" through this gift. She agrees! For the record, this gift wouldn't give much change from a thousand aussie.
He arrives home and they meet that very day. She is hyped from a bad day at work and excited to see him, He makes her day by giving her the jewellery and she is ecstatic. They meet the next day and she tells him that she can no longer continue the sexual part of the relationship as she feels so much guilt at how she is treating her boyfriend and would very much like to stay friends (shades of the old school yard!). To that end, they still see each other as much as they ever did and he has told me he hopes that she will change her mind (I have advised him on that!)
What rankles him and still causes resentment in him is she didn't tell him on the first day back. Her excuse is she was too hyped (!) to speak to him about it. It is the present that bothers him. He gave it to her because of the reasons stated above and he is hurt by it!
The advice sought was, what should he do about and I gave him my opinion!
What I'm asking you guys is, should she have accepted the gift?
Hue
Moral Dilemma
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Moral Dilemma
I can only be who I am
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longbowinfected
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Re: Moral Dilemma
It is what I would expect most folk would do.
Call me a prude Hue but in my opinion it is a tangled web. They both should not have escalated to that point.
I gave my word when I got married. In fact I made the same promises to my lady when I was 15......41 years ago. Breaking such promises is a serious issue wrt trust in this world where people opt for the easy out. If you cannot keep your word to the person you love then most others should beware.
as per ethics both are in the wrong...big time but others will pay the hardest price for mine.
Sorry but I am a black and white type guy.
Kev
Call me a prude Hue but in my opinion it is a tangled web. They both should not have escalated to that point.
I gave my word when I got married. In fact I made the same promises to my lady when I was 15......41 years ago. Breaking such promises is a serious issue wrt trust in this world where people opt for the easy out. If you cannot keep your word to the person you love then most others should beware.
as per ethics both are in the wrong...big time but others will pay the hardest price for mine.
Sorry but I am a black and white type guy.
Kev
never complain....you did not have to wake up....every day is an extra bonus and costs nothing.
Re: Moral Dilemma
the question i asked is
should she have taken the gift Kevin? and nothing more....
Hue
should she have taken the gift Kevin? and nothing more....
Hue
I can only be who I am
Re: Moral Dilemma
He gave the gift. She accepted it as a gift from a good friend. The sex for her was not a factor if she has remained friends. Did he give this gift unconditionally? It doesn't seem that way. I may not have accepted the gift in such circumstances but I don't thing she did anything wrong by doing so. It's a tricky one. She may not have realized it's true worth or meaning for him.
Still lying and cheating even for passion can exact a terrible toll.
Still lying and cheating even for passion can exact a terrible toll.
I have taken the path less trod and it has made all the difference
Re: Moral Dilemma
Lochmoy wrote:He gave the gift. She accepted it as a gift from a good friend. The sex for her was not a factor if she has remained friends. Did he give this gift unconditionally? It doesn't seem that way. I may not have accepted the gift in such circumstances but I don't thing she did anything wrong by doing so. It's a tricky one. She may not have realized it's true worth or meaning for him.
Still lying and cheating even for passion can exact a terrible toll.
ive been thinking on this for a while now and could not have said it any better than lochmoy.
...nev...
i hunt animals because they have legs and can run away ................plants dont
Re: Moral Dilemma
1st day 2nd day whats the difference ? that is a minute part of the entire picture.
She probably didnt tell him on the first day cause he gave her a gift and she couldnt say it. big deal.
She has obviously been planning to say it.accept it and move on.
It was bound to end up in tears one way or another and 2 adults would\should be aware of the risks when they started out.
She probably didnt tell him on the first day cause he gave her a gift and she couldnt say it. big deal.
She has obviously been planning to say it.accept it and move on.
It was bound to end up in tears one way or another and 2 adults would\should be aware of the risks when they started out.
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looseplucker
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Re: Moral Dilemma
Odds on she was working up to telling him it was no longer on. On the basis of what you have said Hue I am sure that she would have had it on her mind while your friend was away that it was time to get the relationship cooled off.
In my view it would certainly have been more ethical for her to so "No, I couldn't possibly accept this". That would have taken a degree of courage and maturity that, I am sorry, does not appear to exist these days in people of a lot of ages. Unfortunately we exist in a world of "What is in it for me?" and "You Go, Girl". Maybe she thought it her due after putting out in the circumstances.
All gifts are given unconditionally, if truly gifts - but to accept the bauble on one day and then break it off the next - well that gives Mercenaries a bad name.
What your friend should do is make the best of it, 'fess up to his wife AND tell the boyfriend.
In my view it would certainly have been more ethical for her to so "No, I couldn't possibly accept this". That would have taken a degree of courage and maturity that, I am sorry, does not appear to exist these days in people of a lot of ages. Unfortunately we exist in a world of "What is in it for me?" and "You Go, Girl". Maybe she thought it her due after putting out in the circumstances.
All gifts are given unconditionally, if truly gifts - but to accept the bauble on one day and then break it off the next - well that gives Mercenaries a bad name.
What your friend should do is make the best of it, 'fess up to his wife AND tell the boyfriend.
Are you well informed or is your news limited?
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Mrs Bandsaw
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Re: Moral Dilemma
my answer to the gift question is... NO! she shouldn't have took it. he was giving to her as his girlfriend! she knew at the time he gave it to her that she no longer wanted to be involved with him in that way when he gave it to her!
Personaly I think she didn't tell him on 'that' day cause she wanted the jewelery and knew why he was giving it to her and if she told him on 'that' day he would not have given it to her!
Cause she already knew he was going to but it for her and the reasons behind it right??? NO she shouldn't have excepted it! That was very dishonest!
And also it doesn't matter if they were involved or married to other people, if they weren't and he told her he wanted to buy her something and then she wanted to break up with him but waited to tell him until she got the gift? That is the same situation and that is very dishonest!
Thats my 2c worth!
Personaly I think she didn't tell him on 'that' day cause she wanted the jewelery and knew why he was giving it to her and if she told him on 'that' day he would not have given it to her!
Cause she already knew he was going to but it for her and the reasons behind it right??? NO she shouldn't have excepted it! That was very dishonest!
And also it doesn't matter if they were involved or married to other people, if they weren't and he told her he wanted to buy her something and then she wanted to break up with him but waited to tell him until she got the gift? That is the same situation and that is very dishonest!
Thats my 2c worth!
"It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live." - Albus Dumbledore.
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jindydiver
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Re: Moral Dilemma
How do you make a judgment on her morality surrounding her accepting this gift and separate it from the morality surrounding them both engaging in such dishonest behaviour in the first place?
Mick
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.
Abraham Lincoln
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.
Abraham Lincoln
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longbowinfected
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Re: Moral Dilemma
Jindy,
I totally and absolutely agree.
Kev
I totally and absolutely agree.
Kev
never complain....you did not have to wake up....every day is an extra bonus and costs nothing.
Re: Moral Dilemma
?
Last edited by UPTHETOP on Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Justastik Arrow Craft, Its all about the Wood.
Re: Moral Dilemma
If I'd spent a grand on a present I'd be miffed too once I hand it over only to find out the nookie privileges are being rescinded....like being dumped the day after Valentine's Day! However it is a bit rich of him to expect total honesty and integrity in a situation that is lacking both these things, from him and from her.
As I see it his argument is "I'm upset because my girlfriend, who I'm cheating on my wife with, accepted an expensive gift then stopped sleeping with me because she is also cheating on her boyfriend." He's not bothered by the cheating, the lying, the almost inevitable heartache, the very real possibility of tearing his family apart - he's upset about the expensive gift....
I know many of us haven't answered the question as you asked it, but not too many people are going to be overly sympathetic about your mate's situation.
Although I have to wonder how she explained the shiny new gift to her boyfriend???
As I see it his argument is "I'm upset because my girlfriend, who I'm cheating on my wife with, accepted an expensive gift then stopped sleeping with me because she is also cheating on her boyfriend." He's not bothered by the cheating, the lying, the almost inevitable heartache, the very real possibility of tearing his family apart - he's upset about the expensive gift....
I know many of us haven't answered the question as you asked it, but not too many people are going to be overly sympathetic about your mate's situation.
Although I have to wonder how she explained the shiny new gift to her boyfriend???
Re: Moral Dilemma
What sort of bow was she shooting?
Bowhunting (Hunting for Bows)
Known Carrier of "Fox Bow Fever"
Known Carrier of "Fox Bow Fever"
Re: Moral Dilemma
Gosh Hue, I hope you^h^h^h your friend didn't spend more than he could afford.
Joking aside.
The other way to look at it is how much friendship/sex/relationship did he think would be a fair exchange for this gift?
Pick a number. I imagine he can't or wouldn't.
I'd say a gift is a gift, and like gambling, it's probably best not to give more than you can afford to give or loose.
Joking aside.
The other way to look at it is how much friendship/sex/relationship did he think would be a fair exchange for this gift?
Pick a number. I imagine he can't or wouldn't.
I'd say a gift is a gift, and like gambling, it's probably best not to give more than you can afford to give or loose.
David
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Sky TDX 17 riser with Kaya Carbon Tomcat limbs(25H-36#) short Beiter button and rest.
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Sky TDX 17 riser with Kaya Carbon Tomcat limbs(25H-36#) short Beiter button and rest.
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Chuditch
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Re: Moral Dilemma
Tee hee.clinglish wrote:What sort of bow was she shooting?
Too right Looseplucker!What your friend should do is make the best of it, 'fess up to his wife AND tell the boyfriend.
I find the whole tale not lacking in poetic justice and irony.
No she should not have accepted the gift,
He is no doubt left feeling pretty foolish.
I could have bought a pretty nice bow for 1 Grand or some new tyres for the family 4x4 and I could have completely rebuilt my Lada Niva project for 1 grand LOL. Or even some stuff for the kids. I can't imagine how much grace I would be in with the wife if I spent that much on something nice for her....
Might have to give it a go and see what comes of it
Romans 6:23
I'd be less concerned about the immediate issue of losing the dough and the sex, more worried about things eternal if I was the bloke.
DjidiDjidi, Nullark Gullart Nyarrt.
Re: Moral Dilemma
He's 55 and she's 24? You sure he's not just boasting?
Very sexpensive lesson on honesty, if you ask me. Being, if she'll happily sneak around deceiving at least two people, it's no surprise she'd delay her plans to call it off long enough to secure the jewels once aware of them, y'know?
I say to your friend... Cop it sweet! You were happy to sneak around practising deception, too, so don't whinge about it. Tell no-one (It was foolish, selfish and disloyal for sure, but there's no point in hurting anyone now it's over! The respective partners shouldn't have to suffer humiliation like that just to salve your guilt) and NEVER AGAIN nurture that kind of situation as long as you remain married and you'll never have to lament gifts lost to infidelity.
Very sexpensive lesson on honesty, if you ask me. Being, if she'll happily sneak around deceiving at least two people, it's no surprise she'd delay her plans to call it off long enough to secure the jewels once aware of them, y'know?
I say to your friend... Cop it sweet! You were happy to sneak around practising deception, too, so don't whinge about it. Tell no-one (It was foolish, selfish and disloyal for sure, but there's no point in hurting anyone now it's over! The respective partners shouldn't have to suffer humiliation like that just to salve your guilt) and NEVER AGAIN nurture that kind of situation as long as you remain married and you'll never have to lament gifts lost to infidelity.
Last edited by Nephew on Sun Jul 11, 2010 8:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Lately, if life were treating me any better, I'd be suspicious of it's motives!
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Stephen Georgiou
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Re: Moral Dilemma
My first thought was more in the line of why you would ask this question here and then I remembered what you are studying at uni.
My response goes like this..
Relationships are born on trust.
We let people come closer to us by opening up to them and allowing them to exist in our personal space both physically and mentally.
By placing a person in this position you then have the ability to betray them, the trust that has been given and most importantly, you can betray yourself!
In this case, the age of the parties, the relationship that has developed and the jewellery are all results of betrayal and the question should be, what is the bloke going to do to make amends with his wife, to whom he owes respect?
I suggest that he will be unaware of the gravity of his actions and that his wife may be better off without him, but in these situations there are few winners.
I am not a religious man but this is relevant here
"Do unto others as you would have done to yourself"
One more thing.
Honour is the most important human trait. It sets us aside from animals. If we have no honour we have no humanity.
My response goes like this..
Relationships are born on trust.
We let people come closer to us by opening up to them and allowing them to exist in our personal space both physically and mentally.
By placing a person in this position you then have the ability to betray them, the trust that has been given and most importantly, you can betray yourself!
In this case, the age of the parties, the relationship that has developed and the jewellery are all results of betrayal and the question should be, what is the bloke going to do to make amends with his wife, to whom he owes respect?
I suggest that he will be unaware of the gravity of his actions and that his wife may be better off without him, but in these situations there are few winners.
I am not a religious man but this is relevant here
"Do unto others as you would have done to yourself"
One more thing.
Honour is the most important human trait. It sets us aside from animals. If we have no honour we have no humanity.