Whats important in a bow..?

General discussions. Politics, scuttlebutt, whatever: you're getting married, changing jobs, got a gripe or a compliment, dying to get out with the bow etc.....

Moderator: Moderators

Message
Author
User avatar
kimall
Posts: 1426
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:21 pm
Location: Toowoomba

Whats important in a bow..?

#1 Post by kimall » Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:26 pm

I have made a few bows now and have had some being tested for some time in the field and I am happy that they are as reliable as any wood fiberglass bow can be so with a couple more machines coming soon I am looking at making some bows for sale.I am looking at making bows at the entry to mid level bows as I feel that even though there are SOME cheaper bows out there I can make a much better performing bow for the money.With this in mind they will be black glass over bamboo(flooring) cores with laminated hardwood risers.I have found that this combination makes a bow with great speed without the need for dearer timbers under clear glass.Here is an example...
Image
Image
Image
So my question is what are the things that are important for you all in a bow when making a purchase and in what order do you place these.I will also be aiming these very much at the kids market as in my opinion there is a real need in Auz for more kids bows that perform as well as the kids that shoot them.In light of this what would people be prepared to pay for a kids bow and what would you expect for your money?
I may be way off here so this is why I am posing the question because I may be trying to create a solution for a problem that does not exist. :lol:
Anyway I look forward to all the feedback so dont hold back I have broad shoulders and value ALL feedback.
Cheers KIM

User avatar
pdccr
Posts: 1285
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:07 pm
Location: Mackay

Re: Whats important in a bow..?

#2 Post by pdccr » Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:30 pm

I think its great that you are looking at the kids market, all too often they are tossed out of the picture. IMO i would need to take into consideration how much the materials cost for example, a spotted gum stave $10 and i would maybe sell for 60-80.
Cheers, Toby

User avatar
outbackarcher
Site Admin
Posts: 255
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:02 pm
Location: dalby QLD

Re: Whats important in a bow..?

#3 Post by outbackarcher » Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:53 pm

i must say, the bows you make look awesome and what if i was to get a custom bow, i would like to meet the bowyer (go to where he is, as i would like to know the person who made the bow) and talk to him about the bow and any tips or specifications he has on the bow.

As toby said, it is good that you are thinking about getting into the kids market, as i know lots of kids who have factory made bows and could use a nice beautifull custom bow.

lewis
Trad archery and bowhunting all the way.

User avatar
pdccr
Posts: 1285
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:07 pm
Location: Mackay

Re: Whats important in a bow..?

#4 Post by pdccr » Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:07 pm

While pondering this a for a little while i thought about a few things. firstly, would be if you were going to use the design in the picture and custom made ones or a standard design. For a custom made bow i would be looking at the cost of materials and the time and effort put into the bow. Even for a plain bow i would be willing to pay somewhere between $50-100 and for a custom made bow probably anywhere between $100-200. It really depends on how long it takes you to make a bow.

Secondly, if you were to have a standard range of bows, ranging from #25-#45 you could still get a great market and keep the cost of the bow down and profit at a worthwhile rate.
Cheers, Toby

User avatar
TomMcDonald
Posts: 1125
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 8:49 pm
Location: Canberra

Re: Whats important in a bow..?

#5 Post by TomMcDonald » Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:16 pm

Important in a semi-custom bow. Not in any particular order.

Large choice of wood types.
Choice between a recurve or longbow.
Take-down and one-piece.
Real-world testing and results, with people able to vouch for its virtues.
Short waiting period.
Good price.
Tom

Sometimes the simplest things are the most profound.

www.billygoatbowstrings.com

User avatar
pdccr
Posts: 1285
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:07 pm
Location: Mackay

Re: Whats important in a bow..?

#6 Post by pdccr » Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:25 pm

Kim, i may be interested in purchasing one of your bows to help you get up and running and help with the design and feedback.
Cheers, Toby

User avatar
greybeard
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 2992
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:11 am
Location: Logan City QLD

Re: Whats important in a bow..?

#7 Post by greybeard » Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:03 pm

Hi Kim,

Durability and performance.

Offer a fancy riser at an additional cost.

Lewis and Toby,

A teenager driving a cash register at the local supermarket earns about $19-00 per hour.

Bowyers should rate higher on the pay scale. Kids bows take as much time to make as adult bows. Factor in at least 20 hours labor plus materials and you should arrive at a more than reasonable price.

The last time I employed a trades person it cost me $78-00 per hour.

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

User avatar
pdccr
Posts: 1285
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:07 pm
Location: Mackay

Re: Whats important in a bow..?

#8 Post by pdccr » Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:10 pm

Thats a fair point daryl. Although i wish i was getting $19.00 and hour :lol: I have yet to make a bow like that in kimalls so i dont know how much one would cost. I would be more than happy to pay more for a bow pictured in that picture. What would be a suitable price for the bow similar to kimalls one? Kimall, what kind of price would you be looking at, most people would be happy to pay money for quality.
Cheers, Toby

User avatar
kimall
Posts: 1426
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:21 pm
Location: Toowoomba

Re: Whats important in a bow..?

#9 Post by kimall » Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:22 pm

Its great to get the feedback and already its very interesting to see the differant points of view.Just to make it clear this is never going to be a money making thing thats for sure and that is not the aim.Tom I am intersted in your opinion of a fair price as you put it as I did say I am looking at an entry level bow but you want a lot of options(and thats fine) but a take down option is prob going to add a hundred dollars without any extra labour so it sort of takes it out of the entry level market I would think.(I may be wrong and this is the purpose of this thread).GB the most important thing for my is long term reliability and the second is performance and the bow in the pic at 63 pound does just over 200fps with a hunting weight arrow so that is covered and it has been hunting for the last few months in north QLD in the heat and has lots of shots through it and is holding up well.On this bow I took it to extremes and went with a long riser but short overall length to test the design but on the future bows it will be a bit less extreme to make a slightly smoother and quieter package.
Please put up you thoughts everone as I am very keen to hear them.
Cheers KIM

User avatar
pdccr
Posts: 1285
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:07 pm
Location: Mackay

Re: Whats important in a bow..?

#10 Post by pdccr » Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:25 pm

Ok kim, for example. I'm new to the sport, 15 years old and i am looking for a 35-40# longbow. Nothing to special, how much would you sell it for?
Cheers, Toby

User avatar
kimall
Posts: 1426
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:21 pm
Location: Toowoomba

Re: Whats important in a bow..?

#11 Post by kimall » Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:40 pm

Prob about 150-200 for a laminated bow longbow or recurve with black glass over bamboo core.
The kids bows will be cheaper as I can cut the glass up the middle and get a bow from one piece of glass not two as on the bigger bows.
Cheers KIM

User avatar
Outbackdad
Site Admin
Posts: 478
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:46 pm
Location: Dalby

Re: Whats important in a bow..?

#12 Post by Outbackdad » Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:44 pm

Everyone has a differant point of view of what they will pay.
I have spent much $ to help Lewis as he has showen he is verry keen for a long time and i do not think it is going to pass any time soon.
Not everyone has the $ or kids as keen as lewis but still want a good bow at a fair price.
It more comes to what you are prepared make and sell them for.

User avatar
kimall
Posts: 1426
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:21 pm
Location: Toowoomba

Re: Whats important in a bow..?

#13 Post by kimall » Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:45 pm

Mate just had a think and for a 15 year old it would prob get into the adult bows for the draw length so prob a bit more about the 300 I would think as everthing needs to be upsized a bit.
Cheers KIM

User avatar
pdccr
Posts: 1285
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:07 pm
Location: Mackay

Re: Whats important in a bow..?

#14 Post by pdccr » Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:49 pm

Sorry not a good example, 13 year old with a 30# draw. Thats still a great price for what they are getting. I dont think price is your biggest issue, its probably getting your market and spreading the word.
Cheers, Toby

User avatar
kimall
Posts: 1426
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:21 pm
Location: Toowoomba

Re: Whats important in a bow..?

#15 Post by kimall » Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:58 pm

Toby thanks for your thoughts spreading the word is not a prob I have more interest than I can cope with at the start. :shock: Outbackdad so what was the selection criteria for the bow you bought Lewis, this is what I am after with this thread.What are people looking for when they buy a bow.
Cheers KIM

User avatar
TomMcDonald
Posts: 1125
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 8:49 pm
Location: Canberra

Re: Whats important in a bow..?

#16 Post by TomMcDonald » Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:59 pm

Kimmal, for the bow you mention above, with any wood of my choice, a draw weight choice of between 40 and 80 pounds, I'd pay $500-$550
Tom

Sometimes the simplest things are the most profound.

www.billygoatbowstrings.com

User avatar
otis.drum
Posts: 972
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:30 am
Location: cape york

Re: Whats important in a bow..?

#17 Post by otis.drum » Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:02 pm

kimall, $150-200 is extemely reasonable if not cheap. i know you have to have a market, but don't sell yourself short.

whats important to me.

being able to pick and choose a bit, wood, shape, glass colour, stain, etc.

length, shape, handle size.

performance

price.

getting them out there to shoots would be a good start. take a variety of youth and adult bows in low and upper $$ models. show what you can do. let boths kids and adults try them. advertise here and on other aussie sites.
...otis...

User avatar
pdccr
Posts: 1285
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:07 pm
Location: Mackay

Re: Whats important in a bow..?

#18 Post by pdccr » Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:03 pm

Otis has a good point. Im not actually that surprised about the amount of interest. Your probably sick of hearing my opinion so this will be my last for tonight, when i look for a bow, i want it to be nice looking, tick, reliable, tick and a decent price...nothing over the top. More than $300 for a kids bow is a little too much in my opinion.
Cheers, Toby

jape

Re: Whats important in a bow..?

#19 Post by jape » Fri Apr 03, 2009 5:36 am

Kim, what are YOU looking for in this? Money may not be the first objective but I have tried to balance the realities of work and skill and ability against pleasure so many times now and have usually failed! I have come to a simple answer for myself after forty odd years. I do it for nothing (except possibly materials) or I do it for proper rates.

That has come from bitter experience of lost friendships and lost money over many years as builder, antiques restorer and web site designer/computer technician. With the best intentions in the world to help others, to be altruistic, be reasonably priced, or even just to give something back to the community I have too often come off second best and that has cost me dear over the years.

I worked in the end on an old-fashioned and very strict contract system, materials plus time at a fair trade-rate covering the costs of being self-employed plus overheads such as insurance. I might throw in something like initial design work for nowt for decent folks or more usually would make a cupboard or painting or something artistic at the end of a big job, a more personal gift. Then every now and again I just did something for nothing as a surprise gift or as an anonymous charitable act and felt fine about it and thus I didn't lose, I gained.

I would want to see a package offered, not just a bow. If you can come up with a formula for three weights, 15/20/25 for kids in a plain longbow off-the-hand or as a choice a simple recurve style with a small shelf, that you can turn out for $200/$250 you will be on a winner and so will the buyers. The main criterion will be safety and reliability. You will have to string them don't forget and have to get a source of a dozen arrows for maybe another $80, also good workmanlike quality to match the bow design, as so many kids bows have pathetic arrows. A simple quiver for $40 similar to the ones on http://www.shayrebel.com/ and an armguard for $10 is a good all round package of options. You can throw in a tab!

One in ten bows will get broken or misused and you will get a claim against you, whether at fault or not and you will also once you start supplying (for whatever cost) have to cover yourself with insurance and Public Liability (which isn't cheap)just in case. And redo your tools and workshop Insurance and vehicle maybe to cover the fact it is commercial (even without profit) or else you could lose everything. Not saying you don't know this but it can be overlooked. Realities of life today and human nature.

Beyond that simple formula which will satisfy so many starter parents and kids including many on this forum if you can achieve it, I suggest you only make quality custom bows at a proper rate. If you can make a base-line adult bow, again, perhaps a simple longbow style and a recurve or D/R style with a shelf for $400 including string I shall be surprised (and order one :lol: ). But then you are up against the Samick and Internature. So why bother? Make a bloody good bow for $600/$700 with some basic options and variability in design and you will get many discerning buyers but I will still be surprised if you can do that at that price.

It might be better to go one step further, offer a full custom-build service including time for consultations, maybe making one top-quality bow every couple of months maximum, for a grand. Then you are under no pressure, can experiment, can take time off and get to shoot your own bow and you can always make one a week if you so choose and have the time! At that level, each buyer will have their own ideas on performance, design and type. Or else you just make a bloody good bow the way you want and wait for a buyer.

To answer the original question - most beginners and parents just don't know what they want (or need) so you just make it safe and reliable and reasonably performing and sell it and you will get a good reputation. High end buyers know what they want and will give you personal specs.

User avatar
pdccr
Posts: 1285
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:07 pm
Location: Mackay

Re: Whats important in a bow..?

#20 Post by pdccr » Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:41 am

Wow jape, you do know what your talking about. Have you tried what kims doing before?
Cheers, Toby

jape

Re: Whats important in a bow..?

#21 Post by jape » Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:48 am

pdccr wrote:Wow jape, you do know what your talking about. Have you tried what kims doing before?
Not with bows Toby, but with a number of other businesses for myself and sometimes as a start-up facilitator specialising in assisting artists and crafts-people offering goods, services and skills. Nowadays I just offer my opinion! But it is based on some experience.

User avatar
pdccr
Posts: 1285
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:07 pm
Location: Mackay

Re: Whats important in a bow..?

#22 Post by pdccr » Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:51 am

Fair enough, kim, another thing you could choose to do is get a number of buyers to come around and they can watch you in the process of making it (maybe even help). Just maybe the gluing or the tillering. Sort of like a workshop but they dont do everything.
Cheers, Toby

User avatar
pdccr
Posts: 1285
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:07 pm
Location: Mackay

Re: Whats important in a bow..?

#23 Post by pdccr » Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:04 am

Kim,
:lol: Now this is probably going to be my last opinion. My mind is just full of ideas from all those boring lessons i've had. Why dont you make a bow by choice and start a poll on these kinds of site and see what people are willing to pay. Remember what otis said, dont sell yourself short. I dont think any other person sells custom made bows for cheaper than $200.
Cheers, Toby

User avatar
stringnstik
Posts: 1106
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:09 pm
Location: Cranbourne

Re: Whats important in a bow..?

#24 Post by stringnstik » Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:48 am

I honestly dont know how to answer this post. I love dreams, I love what Kimall is suggesting.

I come fresh from this problem having had two kids who needed bows. Bows that I and they were hoping would be longbows. I was indeed willing to pay $150 for such an item but it was well short of the mark in reality. Jape has thoroughly laid out the entire picture. What we want and what can be done are poles apart. I too went mad trying to make bows in an attempt to hopefully one day plug the hole which is kids bows.Very quickly did I realise the work involved because it is very much a package. Bow, string,quiver,arrows,tab,armguard. Then there are those liability safety issues Jape mentions. We have ended up with recurve takedowns. I can get different limbs as the child grows. But the kids still want a longbow!

I see web sites with bowyer, a piece of bamboo and a bandsaw knock out longbows (which may not last or be brilliant) but its exactly what I was originally after. Just something for them to shoot to see if they were interested. In my childhood we chopped bits of wood and made all sorts of things ooo if such a paradise existed today that was not so clogged up with cotton wool.

Turning up to a club and shooting targets is great but it does not always appeal to a child. Wandering around stump shooting, 3d shooting and clout,ie trad, I feel, appeals to a much wider child audience. The speed, efficiency etc is second to those in this category, Im not saying they should get rubbish but a first car buyer does not expect to get nor maybe deserve a Ferrari. As stated by some on here the solid f/glass bows fill this void extremely well. They are ugly? yes ok My boy would have very much preferred a longbow to f/glass, he loved the one I made for him (which failed but we try again).In other words they got caught up in the beauty of trad just as much as we did.

I can only hope the trend towards this continues, that more clubs will have such bows available to hire. That forums such as this great one :) will have members who will have such bows hanging on their wall that have been passed around like the book library, I thought a DVD library would also be awesome. But then reality jumps in and shatters the dream. Someone rips the system, doesnt return something, or a bow breaks and someone gets hurt. Like I said up front I dont know what the answer is.

I believe others have answered the posts subject, however I feel the deeper underling question is more about how we solve the introducing of trad archery to kids problem.
"I am the arrow..the arrow is me...together as one...I fly to thee"
"the stick maybe crooked and the string hath no form,
then married by bowyer, transforms when first drawn"
"twang....thud"

User avatar
ichiban
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 1:16 pm
Location: canberra

Re: Whats important in a bow..?

#25 Post by ichiban » Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:24 am

as a general consideration i think you should make the kids bows draw to the full 28 asd they will grow into it and have the bow for a life time however its not the best way to make money..... come up with what You think your time is worth ad the materials and theres the price
Im gonna make it bend and break-Fall Out Boy

RUSS1
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:05 pm

Re: Whats important in a bow..?

#26 Post by RUSS1 » Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:45 am

Great responses and hard to add to so here goes,
1. Kids get a lot of things forced upon them without choice.
2. Kids are technology savvy.
3. Kids like to stand out in an effort to assert who they are in their new world as young adults and choose to customise everything they own.
4. Kids grow out of things and parents will only contribute if they can see a way out.

So, give them a web site. Offer custom bows with tick a box options. Offer a naming service. Price at the top end. Offer a buy back of a % of the sale price.
Cheers
Russ

User avatar
pdccr
Posts: 1285
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:07 pm
Location: Mackay

Re: Whats important in a bow..?

#27 Post by pdccr » Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:46 pm

Russ made some good points, i think if you go ahead with this, get a website for your products. Sort of like a teaser. I got paid today :lol: $187.50

I might buy some archery gear methinks. Saving for a new ute 8)
Cheers, Toby

User avatar
looseplucker
Posts: 1558
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:32 am
Location: Canberra

Re: Whats important in a bow..?

#28 Post by looseplucker » Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:00 pm

There was recently a great Jeremy Clarkson article about the 3 great mistakes in life - and one of them was making your hobby your work. Clarkson is funny but an opinionated git.

Jape makes some good points, and with the lawyer's hat on (and I have done a lot of personal injury - I mean a lot ) the liability insurance etc is a valid point, especially in our litigious society - for which I claim no responsibility.

However if I were to buy a bow for my boy (even though I make them for him) up to $200.
Are you well informed or is your news limited?

User avatar
Mububban
Posts: 410
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:06 pm
Location: Perth

Re: Whats important in a bow..?

#29 Post by Mububban » Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:07 pm

Hmm, only things I can add are that selling a beautiful bow like the one at the top of this thread for less than $250 would be selling yourself waaaay short :D

Could you come up with a dropdead simple, basic, no frills but reliable and good shooting "entry level" bow? Say for under $150-200? That's with a fairly plain wooden riser (cheaper woods, less crafting time). And then offer a more expensive bow, say a lovely laminated riser with colourful wood combinations would cost another $50-$100?

Looking at someone like Cliff Turpin's Turbow longbows - he too uses flooring (I believe) and thus offers a basic bow for a basic price ($150).

However ayou can pay more and upgrade to horn nocks, hand split staves, different woods etc. Hopefully this doesn't break any rules but I had his old website pricing saved on my computer, so for your reference this is another bowyer's prices:
CUSTOM BOW RANGE
Australian acacia hand-split, natural stave
Longbow or Flat bow $350
Draw weights up to 90lbs
Draw Length up to 30 inches (with cowhorn tip) $400

European Ash
English style Longbow $300
Draw weights up to 80 lbs
Draw Length up to 30 inches (with cowhorn tip) $350

STANDARD BOW RANGE
Australian spotted gum or grey ironbark milled timber
Traditional English Longbow with cowhorn tips
Draw weights under 50lbs $200
Draw weights 55lbs - 65lbs $250
Draw lengths up to 30inches / Bow length 76 inches


Basic Livery issue longbow
Draw weights under 50lbs $150
Draw weights 55lbs - 65lbs $200
Draw lengths up to 30 inches / Bow length 76 inches
As you can see, his most expensive bow is 2.66 times the cost of his basic bow.

I guess the main concern with children's bows is that kids grow like weeds! As Russ said, perhaps offer a buyback and onsell service to recycle your bows? Or a discount off the price of their next bow as the kid grows bigger? Some sort of loyalty scheme so your bows keep getting used, keep you getting return business and can also recoup even more of your investment in time and tools. Eg sell a bow for $200, buy it back for $80 in a year or two, onsell it for $120 if it's still in good nick. Extra profit for you, discount for the customer, eveyrone is happy?

User avatar
stringnstik
Posts: 1106
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:09 pm
Location: Cranbourne

Re: Whats important in a bow..?

#30 Post by stringnstik » Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:13 pm

Kimall,
totally side tracked but have you named your bow yet?
Id call that one Witchetty as in the grub. It just honestly reminds me of a Witchetty grub those gorgeous cream and brown colours, and an aussie icon too boot... love it.
"I am the arrow..the arrow is me...together as one...I fly to thee"
"the stick maybe crooked and the string hath no form,
then married by bowyer, transforms when first drawn"
"twang....thud"

Post Reply