Back tension?

[Nephew]

Fellas, whenever I try to use "proper" form as recommended by the experts in magazines, etc and engage back tension I find I start spraying arrows all over the place, and hit the armguard a LOT more! Yet when I just relax and shoot in my own way, far from "proper" form, although I still can't get groups of six in a nice, neat collection within a bread plate sized circle, I do get a much better result with many more effective "killshots", y'know? Why is this, and if "proper" form is so essential, why is it so bloody hard to get right? I am shooting from 5, 10, 15 & 20 metres. Five is great, no probs at all, ten is still good, and fifteen is not too bad. At twenty (my maximum limit on distance, so far) I start going outside the target area on a few shots. I'm using the instinctive method as taught by G. Fred Asbell, and have been practising for a bit over a year now. I have five months to go before I can try for a drivers license, so going to a club is beyond my means right now. Does anyone have any advice? Or am I just being impatient expecting to get it right in under three or so years? I have been told it takes, on average, about three years to master a longbow, and the same for a recurve. Thanks in advance for any advice offered.

[jape]

send me your address and i will post you the Comstock booklet, explains a lot about this stuff

http://www.ozbow.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6936

[Nephew]

Thanks a million, Jape. Much appreciated!

[UPTHETOP]

I know just what you meen. Over the years I have tried all sorts of methods. I have never really seen any one person with the same form we all have our own shooting form or style so to speak. The only really close ones I have seen is maybe target recurvers ( is there any such word). They mainly start there archery beginning being taught properly from the start and most of there gear is set up to shoot in this style.

Us as bow hunters and alike will always have trees, grass, bushes,stones as obsticles to get around for shots. I feel which is the real challenge, shooting your bow at all angles and levels makes it pretty hard to shoot constantly to form.

I shoot the same also at 5 mtr, 10mtr, 15mtr they wander a little, and at 20mtr im at about 60-70%.
There for when in the feild I take nearly all my shots at the 10-12mtr mark.The distance I am comfortable with and confident with. If I cant get to within that distance I simply just dont have the shot. I feel as a bowhunter this tends to hone your stalking skills by requiring that close shot, which to me is what Trad is all about.

So your not the only one mate. I am still to work out true form and just when you think you have got it and you start to group well, we go and buy another bow and it all starts over again.
You got to love that.

Cheers Wayno

[Nephew]

It's good to know I'm not on me own, Wayno! Onya mate.

[jape]

Booklet sent today mate, thank Hugh (Nimrod) for putting it into circulation and when you have finished it, go to that thread and pass it on. It has some good tips on differences and variations in form and how to address them to suit you.

[hillbilly WA]

Hi Moreton
I reckon target archers have got it the wrong way round, they just make up lots of rules and fancy words (back tension), and make something so simple, into a totally different thing!
I started as a compound archer (its alright, i switched as soon as i found out about longbow ) so i have never had to work on my form, but i have seen shot with lots of young and new archers who are working on their form and my viewpoint is that if you keep on practicing good form, you eventually evolve it into something that works, but is slightly different so it works for you also. However, it is all too over complicated and if you want to work on your form, the first (and IMO best) place to start is your release, anchor point, and not dropping your arm. Get these right and you will be shooting consistently.
Also, one of the things that some compound archers used to do at my club is shoot with their eyes closed really close to a target, so they don't miss, and just think about form, then when they 'felt' it, they practised it over and over again and then practiced it whilst aiming at a target.
Good Luck, Carl

[GrahameA]

Morning Carl

I reckon target archers have got it the wrong way round, they just make up lots of rules and fancy words (back tension), and make something so simple, into a totally different thing!

Personally, I am of the opinion that you have it all wrong.

People who shoot Targets and do well at it have spent a lot of time and effort in perfecting the action to repeatedly be able to hit a mark. And if you look at the Field Archers they operate on very inhospitable terrain and under very difficult conditions. There is nothing radically different in what they do or how they do it - the same things have been being said for at least the last couple of hundred years and in essence ever since Ascham put quill to paper.

If you ever try shooting a big traditional bow the way they shot may years ago you will find out all about back tension because you will naturally use your back muscles to draw the bow.

For those who are interested Have a look at the barebow shooters operating in this clip:

2006 Championships
And check out the countryside in this clip
And then there is the wet and wetter 2008 Championships
and last but not least the initiative by Alternative Services in the UK Just check out how hard some of the shots are.

[hillbilly WA]

Grahame, I agree with you.
Sorry, i wasn't trying to take a hit at target archers, or make them seem worse than they are, you are right about the form, especially the fact that they can hit the target over and over again.
However, in a hunting situation, you only need to have so much form so that it works and you shoot the arrow where you want it to go.
What i mean i guess is that when you shoot you shouldn't be thinking about extra things like back tension or breathing, it should be intuitive, and that comes after a lot of practice and time spent going through the 'mantra' (straighten arm, draw, anchor point, cant, breathe, aim, 1,2,3, release, follow through; or something to that effect) and then when you're not thinking about it you will start shooting really consistently.
However, there are certain things that you should think about when shooting, such as release, and aim, i beleive.
Comes down to it, it's really just what works for you.
Carl

[GrahameA]

Afternoon Carl

What i mean i guess is that when you shoot you shouldn't be thinking about extra things like back tension or breathing, it should be intuitive, and that comes after a lot of practice and time spent going through the 'mantra' (straighten arm, draw, anchor point, cant, breathe, aim, 1,2,3, release, follow through; or something to that effect) and then when you're not thinking about it you will start shooting really consistently.

My viewpoint:

"Practice does not make perfect." But that is what most people believe.

Practice makes permanent. Practice it long enough and it will become a ingrained action. You don't think about it, it just happens.

So if you practice the wrong technique or wrong things then that is what becomes "the norm". And it will never be right until you go through an un-learn process and then a re-learn process - which happen at the same time.

"Only perfect practice make perfect." You want to be perfect at it, then practice the "perfection".

Concerned about your release, then work on the release. Shoot at a blank butt just concentrating on getting the release right.

You have to be mentally tough on yourself to work on the item at hand and not get sidetracked. It does not matter if you are shooting a Longbow, a Target Recurve, Barebow or a Compound. The actions are all the same - you just need to get the subtleties perfected.

Learn to be critical and diagnostic. How many people take video of them selves and the tear it apart? And how many people spend a lot of time looking at how the best do it and why they do it that way?

Want to switch-hit then be prepared to put a lot of hours in hitting from the other side. Want to learn to catch and throw - be prepared to put a lot of hours in just catching just to get the technique correct and to get the eye-hand co-ordination sorted so everything "just happens". Then you can work on the throwing.

Archery is a relatively simple sport - that does not mean it is easy. You only need to learn the actions and the physics/bio-mechanics behind it. There is no strategy / game play to learn.

[Nephew]

I was hoping you'd come into this Grahame. You have given me the best (in fact, the only ) coaching I have had. Unfortunately I can't get out to Centenary enough to take advantage of your knowledge. I am willing to critique myself, even brutally if required if that's what it takes. Filming is my next move, I think. I'm not really interested in competition with others, I just want to be reasonably sure that any prey I hit dies quickly without needless injury. Of course, even the best of us can't always ensure this, but you get my point I'm sure. It amazes me that when I watch ol' Fred Asbells DVD ("Instinctive Shooting") he seems to effortlessly shoot tight groups using his instinctive style. This is my goal. maybe I'm just being impatient? After all, Fred's been shooting for nearly 50 years now! Anyways, I hope this can generate a good debate (manners, boys! ) and put some good advice on the screen for me, and all others who need it. Thanks you blokes!

[buzz]

What i mean i guess is that when you shoot you shouldn't be thinking about extra things like back tension or breathing, it should be intuitive, and that comes after a lot of practice and time spent going through the 'mantra' (straighten arm, draw, anchor point, cant, breathe, aim, 1,2,3, release, follow through; or something to that effect) and then when you're not thinking about it you will start shooting really consistently.

However, there are certain things that you should think about when shooting, such as release, and aim, i beleive.

You only have one chance to have a truly intuitive shot,... and that was your first shot ever. Everything subsequent is a learned response. What looks to be intuition is learnt. Some might learn easier and quicker, some not. Viv Richards throwing down stumps side on from a boundary looks intuitive, but it is a learned skill applied by someone very talented. Same with Byron Ferguson putting an arrow into a gold ring.

The best advice is to hae someone who 'knows' look over you form, and get you to shoot 'right' and then repeat it in practice. This is the copyrighted 'perfect practice that makes perfect'.

With repetition of good form comes the ability to repeat that form readily, in a manner that looks to be intuitive, but is really ingrained learning.

[UPTHETOP]

Grahame, agree with the practice statement, My grandfather always said to me
' There is a great deal of difference between practice and training my boy '.

But then again he use to always say,
'I REMEMBER WHEN BEER AND PETROL WAS A BOB A GALLON."

Cheers Wayno.

[GrahameA]

Hi All

Here is an example of some of what I was talking about. (And it is not a criticism of Craig's technique. I have no idea of how he holds his bow.)

How do you hold your bow?

This is the hand of a very accomplished Trad' Shooter. Notice a few things, the "loose" grip, the sling so the bow does end up the ground and the centre of effort of the bow on the hand (he is not "palming" the bow).

rob.jpg (24.06 KiB) Viewed 4129 times

This is the hand of the first archer in the world to shoot 1400 in a FITA round. Notice a few things, the "loose" grip, the sling so the bow does end up the ground and the centre of effort of the bow on the hand.

clint.jpg (22.5 KiB) Viewed 4126 times

Now, if you go and look at the hand of archers who are doing well worldwide you will notice something. They all seem to hold the bow the same (similar) way. So there is a just an outside possibility it is a reasonably good way to hold a bow. Then have a look at the hands of people who are doing not so well. Chances are they will have a death grip or something resembling it on the bow and no sling. So it would be a reasonable conclusion that if you want to shoot better a "loose" grip and a bow sling has some advantages.

So if you agree with the above reasoning then practising with "loose" grip may be the way to go.

There are literally hundreds of photos of the worlds best archers on the web and hours of video of the worlds best archers shooting.

Another example:

Observe the precise positioning of the rear anchor and the snap back of the hand upon release due to the back tension.

[Nephew]

That's pretty much the grip I use, Grahame (luck, not design, and good advice early in my archery journey from YOU!) , loose, light two finger grip(no sling, or not that type anyway. I must get one) knuckles at 45degrees to the handle, release hand moves backward on release(sometimes I torque the string and my hand goes more sideways, that's when I know I have to concentrate on release more). LUCKY ME!! Now, to be able to shoot well consistently...

[hue]

hi guys

interesting conversation here and like target archery, back tension is a sorely misunderstood concept in the trad world. as a compound shooter of some 12 years and having attained my goal of achieving my GMB i had to learn that concept quickly.
at its most basic, back tension occurs when you transfer the weight of the bow from the arms to the back by setting the traps in place (trapezoids), this works well when you take straight line shooting into account and aiming for a considerable amount of time. in barebow archery, we can still transfer that weight to the back but have to do it quickly as we don't aim all that long, so is it necessary.
as with all barebow shooting, up to the individual. get a line of 100 barebowmen and you will find 100 different ways to shoot a bow. as long as it works and brings you the points or the kill. target archers don't have that choice. both recurve and compound bows must be shot in very specific ways, there's not much room for deviation. just my two cents worth.

Hue

[hillbilly WA]

as a compound shooter of some 12 years and having attained my goal of achieving my GMB

Wow! you must be a top shot Hue! Why'd you go to barebow, and do you still shoot the wheel bow? I can see why you went barebow, just wondering what you're reasoning is.
Carl

[buzz]

Why is this, and if "proper" form is so essential, why is it so bloody hard to get right? I am shooting from 5, 10, 15 & 20 metres. Five is great, no probs at all, ten is still good, and fifteen is not too bad. At twenty (my maximum limit on distance, so far) I start going outside the target area on a few shots.

An observation. Generally.... whatever your grouping is at 10m - it will be double that @ 20m. So if you want a 6" group at 20m, practice for a 3" group at 10m.

I spent an hour yesterday trying to iron out what I thought was a problem with my release... only to suspect that it was actually my bow arm and grip that was the problem...

[longbowinfected]

I do both trad and target.
You practice in order to make sure that you do not have to consciously think about doing an awful lot of small important things either in flow or separately but which build together in a half second.

a GOOD ARCHER WITH A GOOD TECHNIQUE WILL PERFORM WELL IN ANY AREA THEY CHOOSE TO APPLY THEMSELVES TO.
hAVING A GO AT EVERY TYPE OF BOWSHOOTING AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE MUST MAKE YOU A BETTER ARCHER.

Practice with a buddy and take video. whatever, enjoy.

Kevin

[perry]

I recommend going to a good coach who understands barebow archery for a really detailed explatation of how to acheive the alignment necesary to get back tension that Hue talks of . It would take hours to type a concise explanation of what to do and this would be open to misinterpretation [ my bad phrasing ] aswell . It is much better to be under a watchfull eye .

Practicing what you think is good form/ back tension may be reinforcing the wrong things . There is a lot to good form with a balanced stance , bone alignment through your arms and shouders , correct anchor etc all differant for each individual and in my veiw G Fred does not have what works for anyone but him . A better fella to have a look at would be Ty Pelfrey in his Modern Traditional video - while it may not be your cup of tea personnel adaptations of his form are the way to go . A number of top examples are featured in the Masters of the barebow DVD's .

One hint that will go a long way towards getting back tension is to gently push with your bow arm while keeping the relaxed hand position Grahame speaks .

Keep pushing gently with your bow arm and anchor solidly while trying to crunch your shoulder blades and what may begin to happen is the bow will go off with a bit of a surprise . The bow arm may move gently to the outside . My selfbows on release actually rotate to the outside and turn sideways or completly around in my grip when I put in a shot with correct form .

You will know if you have any back tension at all if your release fingers are pointing down in a relaxed manner and your release hand moves STRAIGHT BACK a little . You will see many faking or exagerating this . Release fingers straight or tense = poor back tension or a dead release , some will argue this is how to shoot - I do not agree .

Study a top compound shooter using a back tension release and you will see what I am talking about . Top FITA recurve shooters have this down to a fine art . We can learn a lot from the target brigade .

I also have a copy of Comstocks book Hit the Mark - it is an excellant little publication explaning the 2 predominant barebow styles - upright and tilted . With proper practice you can acheive increased back tension from all manner of shooting positions .

regards Perry

[Nephew]

Guys, this is fantastic, I really appreciate all of your efforts to help me.I've been told the form in my avatar pic looks good, can anyone critique from that?
Funny thing, Perry, I was just looking at "Masters of the Barebow" in the Three Rivers catalogue and wondering if it may help. I've got my answer now! Maybe Santa will put it in my stocking this year. (I hope your reading this, Sharon...hint hint).As soon as a pass my drivers liscence test, I will spend as much time as possible out at Nth Albert Field Archers as I know folk that shoot there that could offer coaching advice. Once again, thanks everyone!

[gundy]

Stop thinking about it, then , look, raise, draw and release...

Thats the only time I shoot well....

Wish I could do it every time...

[Hills Twinky]

This is clearing a load up with myself aswell because i have only just got my recurve and i am still trying to work on the fundamentals of the recurve draw... I am trying to mimic my draw that i had achieved with my compound and hence i anchor my string just below my ear hooking my thumb behind the curve of my draw, i have the hand grip down and the back tension thing is something I am quiet new to but i guess have been doing subconsciously when shooting my compound... Is all this to say that my anchor where it is, is poor form? It is where I am comfortable, but it seems near no-one does it...

Cheers, vaughn

[GrahameA]

Morning Perry

Practicing what you think is good form/ back tension may be reinforcing the wrong things.

"Yep" and "Yep" again.

One hint that will go a long way towards getting back tension is to gently push with your bow arm while keeping the relaxed hand position Grahame speaks.

That was only an example of what good shooters do and that it only requires a bit of observation of them.

poor back tension or a dead release , some will argue this is how to shoot - I do not agree .

I will not argue with what you say.

Study a top compound shooter using a back tension release and you will see what I am talking about.

Yes. But you will hear the argument, "They are using a Compound and that has nothing to do with shooting a Trad' Bow". Put Soapbox back under table.

Top FITA recurve shooters have this down to a fine art. We can learn a lot from the target brigade.

Keep up with those sort of statements and you will get a reputation for being a radical. ROFL However, IMHO, you are correct.

[longbowinfected]

I totally agree with Perry and Grahame.
The coaching manual from AA for beginners is excellent but it is as thick as your thumb.
If you can, get to an accredditted, trained coach if you can or someone who has represented at the highest order if they can coach.
Arthur Fisk, from Bathurst was a ParaOlympian he teaches and stresses the four "P"s:
Push
Pull
Power
Pose
You say it to yourself as a mantra while the other things you practised take over subconsciously.
It works just as well for instinctive trad shooting as it does Olympic target.
He reckons that your muscles like to work and work best under strain.
Better to use a slightly more powerful bow than a less powerful one...unless you are injured.
Push your bow forward, pull the string with deep clawed fingers with your back. The drawing fingers I agree are best angled and down. Give it the full back scrunch [every arm bone in straight alignment and your shoulder blades come as close together as possible] , release whilst under maximum power plus a molecule more. Hold your pose till after you hear the arrow hit.......especially important for long distance stuff. A great example of an exponent of Arthur's training is LongbowSteve. He does really well at trad and AAtarget and field. It took him a year and a half at self discovery to be competent and less than 6 months to become exceptional.....with a good coach, great effort, lot of practice [every day] and good gear.
I strongly recommend the DVDs mentioned earlier also.
I also strongly recommend the use of a bow sling to stop you torquing your bow.
I also advise that you use 8-9 grains of arrow per draw pound with a heavy 125 grain point for aluminium and 10 grains per draw pound for timber arrows. A fast heavy pointed arrow with good FOC is critically important....all the practice in the world is wasted if your gear is not tuned and quick.

Kevin

[longbowinfected]

Moreton,
I can give you my thoughts. You look pretty good but I will make this comment:
I realise that your avatar depicts you shooting downwards but it appears to me that your bow arm when compared to your drawing arm is pointed downwards. Draw the bow first getting both arms straight and locked with the butt of the bow hand thumb taking the pressure. Then bend at the waist .....maintains straight form.....maintains power and exact same draw length......you do this whether shooting up or down.

Kevin

[GrahameA]

Morning Craig

A Xmas Present. Just get them out and read them with a critical mind.

Addenda

More presents

Something to do over Xmas - don't cut yourself when planing and sanding. Others may also enjoy it.

You will find this read handy and save the pdf so you can refer back to it. It is a 2Mb download.

And since you want to shoot "field" be it a more primitive version you will enjoy this download as well. 1.4Mb

[Nephew]

Thanks so much, Grahame! There's a couple there I have already taken out and read, right back before I ever held a bow (Bows of the world, Archers Digest) but I reckon I would understand them a lot better now. There are plenty there I have never read, and I'll be eagerly seeking them out on Friday, my "mainland" day. Onya mate, I owe you one (well...another one. I owe you plenty of favours as it is!)

[GrahameA]

Hi Craig

... and I'll be eagerly seeking them out on Friday, my "mainland" day.

You should be able to book them over the Internet. Get the librarians to explain how if you have difficulties.

Addenda

You may also find this interesting.

You will probably need to right click - save the individual files. Then start Acrobat and open the files from within Acrobat.

As a small aside note how they start the beginners barebow and string walking.

Go on Kevin and Steve I know you are intrigued.

[longbow steve]

Hi Grahame, Kevins already gone down the coaching path, I want to but the next course is on the same weekend as the State Target and about 15 minutes away. Hmm I wonder whether I could do both Maybe when we get down to 3 arrow ends.
I did write a page for this thread but it didnt upload, I think it coincided with Kevins post, I will try to do it again tomorrow even though it is the same info that Grahame/Perry etc are offering. Steve