To cant or not to cant..

[Ashman]

I note from many of the pictures of trad archers that a lot cant their bows. We're initially taught (rigorously) to shoot upright, not to torque or cant the bow - so what's the purpose or advantage of canting? ..and should you start early or learn "proper" form first?

[Edwarddgrey]

Ashman,

I have found when using my longbow that if I cant the bow I actually seem to draw the bow about an inch less than normal, this causes me to generally under-shoot the mark. Im not sure of the science behind this observation ( if any ) however I have personally found best results with a wide stance shooting a non-canted bow.

[looseplucker]

When I first got a longbow the fellow who sold it to me (it was a tiny place in the MacQuarie Shops in Canberra - some may remember it) he suggested I cant the bow and use the index finger knuckle as an aim point. This certainly worked well for me as a beginner.

However when I started shooting longer distances, and shooting instinctive I found an uncanted bow to be more consistent with distance and accuracy. Never tried to figure out why. I certainly did experience the string catching on the front of a jumper or jacket if canting the bow and undershootin I didn't perceive any lessening of draw length though.

[Coach]

Shooting upright is fine when you are at the range target shooting , but in a hunting scenario where you are shooting from a kneeling or sitting position , it isn't real practical .

[GrahameA]

Ash

or learn "proper" form first?

IMHO - "YES!!!!" And I say again, "YES".

It is hard to unlearn poor form. Trust me on it.

I note from many of the pictures of trad archers that a lot cant their bows. We're initially taught (rigorously) to shoot upright, not to torque or cant the bow - so what's the purpose or advantage of canting?

IMHO Canting will give you a bigger field of view - which can be handy. With longbows especially you can roll more or less to account for windage. However once the distances start to get out there canting can, and probably will, affect your scores.

Re Your other question and this one.

You should read, "Archery, Its theory and Practice" by Horace Ford. The single biggest change in competitive Target Archery and score increase was the introduction of the under the chin anchor. I will let you work out why.

A high anchor is good for short distances but once you go beyond 40m I would suggest that a vertical bow and a under the chin anchor will pay large dividends.

Some reading:

Horace Ford:
http://www.archerylibrary.com/books/bad ... r16_1.html

"Archery, Its Theory and Practice." This book is roughly 150 years old and is as relevant today as the day it was written.
http://www.archerylibrary.com/books/ford/

[Coach]

May I ask , who is it that decides on "proper" form ?? Surely if one hits the spot they are aiming at , regardless of form , they have succeeded in their goal
I realise that there are things we should avoid when shooting , but to say that there is only one way to shoot is ludicrous
I am mainly talking about hunting situations here , so please dont come back at me with an A4 page and countless links

[Brumbies Country]

Interesting topic. I've seen a number of guys in ABA circles successfully shoot with canted longbows. Byron Ferguson advocates it, in line with Grahames words, because it clears the bow out of your sight picture. I learn't my archery the upright way via an AA club and try as I might,standing, I get things worse when I've tried canting. However we decided to shoot an ABA round at our club around a year ago kneeling at all targets. As a 5' 8" guy with a 68" bow I had to cant significantly and was quite surprised to get a reasonably good score. As Coach says, plenty of hunting shots where you may need to cant.

[Gringa Bows]

i found i shoot a lot better if i cant the bow,and some longbows i cant more than others

[matt_d]

As Coach says, there's more than one way to skin a cat and that mostly relates to hunting situations. I've seen more than a few hunters with no proper archery training who are just amazing shots on anything within 30 metres. But for each of these guys, I reckon there's probably 10 or more "hunters" who can't shoot to save themselves.

Getting some proper archery coaching can be incredibly beneficial to your shooting in ALL forms, and it can also fast-track your development. But learning consistent shooting form is about more than just joining an archery club. You really need guidance from someone who knows what they are doing.

An example - I belong to a club here in Melbourne and we have quite a few trad shooters. Many who come through our beginner courses are choosing to pick up the longbow simply because it interests them and without any other persuasion and that is great!
BUT - a majority of these archers go straight out and buy a longbow, are instructed to sight down the arrow shooting 3 fingers under with a canted bow. And they all do it. It's a quick way to get a newbie hitting a target, but they all have TERRIBLE form, are undisciplined with regards to their shooting and they hit a plateau and never seem to get any better!
I suppose everyone has their reasons for wanting to shoot, but if you do want to become good I'd strongly suggest first learning the conventional target method, then branching out and following whatever style interests you.
Cheers,
Matt

[GrahameA]

Hi Matt

BUT - a majority of these archers go straight out and buy a longbow, are instructed to sight down the arrow shooting 3 fingers under with a canted bow. And they all do it.

From an AA point of view that is not allowed. Longbows must be shot with a Mediterranean release.

Getting good consistent form is not a 5 minute job. It takes a lot of work and self criticism. And remember:

"Practice does not make perfect, Practice makes permanent - Only Perfect Practice makes Perfect."

Practice the wrong thing and that is what you will learn - and you will pay the penalty.

I suppose everyone has their reasons for wanting to shoot, but if you do want to become good I'd strongly suggest first learning the conventional target method, then branching out and following whatever style interests you.

Excellent advice.

[Coach]

As Coach says, there's more than one way to skin a cat and that mostly relates to hunting situations. I've seen more than a few hunters with no proper archery training who are just amazing shots on anything within 30 metres. But for each of these guys, I reckon there's probably 10 or more "hunters" who can't shoot to save themselves.


Matt

Yep , and it's sad that they are out there

Have I been put on your ignore list Graham

I suppose everyone has their reasons for wanting to shoot, but if you do want to become good I'd strongly suggest first learning the conventional target method, then branching out and following whatever style interests you.

Sorry Matt , but I disagree , why make it harder by learning two ways to shoot ? Its very much the same as "unlearning" a bad habit . Just learn what you need and apply it , rather than learn what you dont need , then have to re- learn what you do need . I hope that made some sort of sense

[matt_d]

Well Coach I agree it would be silly to go and learn one way then go do something else completely different, but the thing is, it's all the same!
Things like biomechanics, body & bone alignment, correct muscle usage, grip pressure, clean release, follow through, physical and mental conditioning, concentration and discipline.. these are all things that get taught to you by a good coach. Once you've mastered all those fundamentals you can then apply it to good instinctive shooting.
Instinctive shooting is about teaching the brain where to aim without conciously thinking about it.. Answer me this - How is the brain expected to make those calculations accurately if the body is doing something slightly different every time??
Matt

[Coach]

Answer me this - How is the brain expected to make those calculations accurately if the body is doing something slightly different every time??

My point exactly ! It cant when you teach your self to shoot one way , then change it to another , IE stand up target shooting is more than slightly different , than hunting with a cant


I agree good form with bone alignment etc is good for shooting , but you wont get the same bone alignment etc with a canted position

You said

Well Coach I agree it would be silly to go and learn one way then go do something else completely different, but the thing is, it's all the same!

Its not the same mate . You , yourself said

do something else completely different,

Come on dude , you are contradicting yourself here

[matt_d]

I never said that your body position would be exactly the same whether you choose to cant the bow or not. But what bloody angle the bow is held at doesn't discount every other aspect of repeatable form that you have learned. You can apply it to any style of shooting.

[Coach]

OK

[matt_d]

So whether or not you agree on what is the right way to learn, that's irrelevant.
Let's say Ash gets himself a stickbow, and proceeds to learn to shoot by himself (as most hunters are loners). He struggles for months and months not really getting any better although he practices hard and wants to become a better shooter. Who's going to tell him what he's doing wrong, and how long is it going to take him to break the habits and re-learn everything if somebody ever does? And where else would you go to get coached in decent repeatable form? The local ABA club?
Matt

[Ashman]

This is brilliant, I'm greatly enjoying the back and forth. It is this kind of robust exchange that is such a powerful learning tool. Thanks also for the additional reading and resource recommendations.

[jape]

I am notoriously bad at archery, but I practise most days and sometimes get into the groove. So here's my thoughts. You want to enjoy this sport! With my longbow I learnt the upright wide stance with a high anchor and really got nowhere fast despite reading books and even photographing myself. With the shorter Longhorn I got a year later I canted automatically for no reason other than it felt right and even started to shoot instinctively, well less conscious of aiming anyway. I fell for this bow, just feels right, so I pretended I knew what I was doing and flung arrows all over the place, making a pratt of myself but having fun again! I 'corrected' this no-thinking style of shooting to the better upright form using my reference points and lots of care and my accuracy fell off immediately. I now cant again and concentrate on smooth release and again my accuracy is improving. That aids confidence no end and I would rather have to adapt later despite what others are saying here, if I ever want to get to longer distances. Just because of the confidence and the reward of getting closer to what I regard as accuracy.

So don't discount the short-term confidence boosting of finally getting somewhere, however you achieve it!

Maybe if you have others around in a club THAT DO THE SORT OF SHOOTING YOU WANT TO DO, i.e target, distance or whatever in whatever discipline, they can advise and correct your form, but while you are working alone, get comfortable and change small things like grip, stance, release until it comes together. If canting works, then accept the short term result I reckon and do the hard work later if you want to get into targets and comps and all that stuff.

Another thought, canting does seem to throw the arrow differently. With the upright stance, despite meticulously tuned arrows and very careful aim, I was always a bit high left and canting brought this into center despite less aim or focus. You don't say much about how the different styles affect you and your accuracy, but although I am less good at particular aimed shots, my groups are overall better in placement, but less tight from this canting.

[Dennis La Varenne]

Ashman,

I cant my bows and always have because it is the natural unforced position which my bow hand takes when holding and drawing my bow. To get my bow vertical, I must force my wrist to rotate into position.

Long ago, I gave vertical holding away because it was not nearly as consistent and repeatable a position as my natural unforced cant which is only about 5 degrees from the vertical.

The most benefit I have from canting is that I can use a wide variety of spined arrows from any bow without any arrowflight problems - anything from 20lbs overspine to 10lbs underspine.

They all go where I look unless I don't keep a length or loose badly.

Dennis La Varenne

[looseplucker]

Some very interesting comments on this post - I've spoken from what I would call my limited experience with a bow - but I think there is a case to be made for learning to shoot both ways - for versatility. This is largely a similar approach to proficiency with a firearm - shooting prone, kneeling, squatting, sitting, standing, benchrest etc - i.e the holistic approach.

Just a further 2 cents

[woody]

Ashman,
What type of archery is your interest.

If you talk to a coach of the target discipline, he will will be correct in saying upright is best.

If you talk to a hunting archer who doesnt shoot past 30 metres he will tell you that its best to cant your bow, and he will be correct.

My archery interest is hunting and I cant my bow.

What really annoys me is the expert of a target discipline who bags canting styles when they dont have the first clue about how this style works.

Done properly, it is not the slap dash half baked bad habit form that their ignorance leads them to say it is.

I know nothing about upright styles as used by leading target archers, except it works very well for the discipline of target archery.

I would not comment further on a subject I'm ignorant about.

[Jeffro]

I think it has to do with how centre shot the bow is aswell.
A fully centre shot bow is shot best in a full upright position in my opinion.
My bow is full centre shot but if im kneeling and gonna shoot a pig at 10 metres,
ill be canting it for sure.

[GrahameA]

Hi Jeffro and others

I think it has to do with how centre shot the bow is aswell.
A fully centre shot bow is shot best in a full upright position in my opinion.

IMHO

I am of the opinion that it has a bit more to do with comfort, consistency of position and the grip.

If you look at the grip that most target archers use it is very relaxed and the 3rd & 4th fingers are on the outside of the handle - need some close up front on shots of hands. (Have a look here http://www.cowichanbowmen.com/archery_tips.php )

Check the angle that the the path through the hands forms and then consider what a bow would look like if the hand was fully wrapped around the bow compared to having the fingers on the outside.

Allow me to suggest that Archery is a Gestalt and trying to dissect the parts will lead towards conclusions that may not be appropriate.

[Coach]

A fully centre shot bow is shot best in a full upright position in my opinion.

Why?

Regardless of the bow , certain people shoot better with the bow canted , as it opens up the sight window .
If you want to get into the whole technical thing about shooting bows upright , you may want to add a bubble level to aid in the perfect "upright " thing , something to think about
I am more of the opinion , use what works for you . Stop making this shooting arrows more complicated than it really is

My bow is full centre shot but if im kneeling and gonna shoot a pig at 10 metres,
ill be canting it for sure.

Well . ya dont have much of a choice , do you I suppose we dont have a choice , so we adapt and overcome our obstacles

[woody]

Its more about anchor points.

A low under the chin anchor, string bisecting the tip of the nose, is better for shooting longer range targets.

It is no problem to look over the arrow with a low anchor.

Bio mechanics are better too for shooting shot after shot repeatedly.

If you are more interested in bowhunting, with shots well under 30 metres, a higher anchor in the corner of the mouth keeps the "gap" instictive feel or whatever you want to call the mental process of calculating elevation much smaller between arrow point and line of sight.

If you use a low target style anchor for close range hunting, the closer shots would have the arrow so far lower under the animal it would be very hard to "gap" your aim accurately.

With a high anchor, nearly everyone finds it easier to get your eye over the arrow with some degree of a canted style.

Its all about what works for the archery game you choose.

[Ashman]

Hi Jeffro and others

I think it has to do with how centre shot the bow is aswell.
A fully centre shot bow is shot best in a full upright position in my opinion.

IMHO

I am of the opinion that it has a bit more to do with comfort, consistency of position and the grip.

If you look at the grip that most target archers use it is very relaxed and the 3rd & 4th fingers are on the outside of the handle - need some close up front on shots of hands. (Have a look here http://www.cowichanbowmen.com/archery_tips.php )

Check the angle that the the path through the hands forms and then consider what a bow would look like if the hand was fully wrapped around the bow compared to having the fingers on the outside.

Allow me to suggest that Archery is a Gestalt and trying to dissect the parts will lead towards conclusions that may not be appropriate.

"Archery is a Gestalt" would make a great t-shirt...

Keep the viewpoints coming - the different perspectives are very illuminating.

[Stephen Georgiou]

Hello there good fellows.
I thought I might put my two bobs worth in....
From a relative new commer to the brotherhood I offer this observation.
Rule number 1. Everybody know what you are doing wrong.
Rule number 2. Everybody can fix your problems.
Rule number 3. Ignore rules number 1 & 2.

The root of the matter is that any unsolisitaed advice will problabley do you more harm than good. The best advice is that which comes from asking questions of good well proven archers. If you are shooting a traditional style of bow then the advice should come from somone who knows that shooting style. If you want to be a good hunter then get advice from a good hunter etc. In terms of what is the correct way of handling your equipment it will depend on whether or not you intend to compete in a particular competition. FITA for example, only allow longbowmen to shoot using a mediteranian grip (one finger above the string and two fingers below) This style works best when anchor point is below the jaw line but can work well against the cheek if you cant the bow. Three fingers below works best against the cheek also with a canted bow.
This advice of course, is only my opinion..........

[mike g]

First off Mr. Howard Hill says that there is two methods of shootin a Bow, Target or Huntin.
Pick your disiplin and learn to shoot that way...
His thoughts on cantin the bow was, close range cant a lot and at longrange shoot upright.
Coach....Form to me means, Rock solid Bow Arm, Consistant draw to anchor, Good Back pressure and release....And follow thru....
I don't care much about the body alingment and feet position ,because that is dicttaed by the condition your in when ya make the shot....

[Stephen Georgiou]

The question to cant or not cant is like asking the question do you hang to the left or hang to the right...
The answer is what ever feels right for you is the right way.
The reason target archers use an upright bow in coaching new comers is to prepare them for what target archers consider "the natural progression of archery" through to sighted bows. These of course only work with an upright bow.
The only reason I can offer other than those mentioned here is that with a canted bow the sight window is larger giving you a better look at the thing your trying to hit adding to your perception of how far it is from you which is a definite advantage for the instinctive shooter.

[kerrille]

This ones for Dennis read sep/oct 2001 archery action
by the way i still got it because of your article accurate shooting with a longbow


...nev...