Sambar Cull

[Len]

I see the Vic Gov/waterboard want to kill 400 sambar and bury them in a pit because they are a threat to Melbourne's water quality. What a waste, why not let hunters go after them and at least not waste the deer.

[Mick Smith]

This is the sort of 'politically correct' government policy that we've now come to expect as standard. It seems our urban based bureaucrats have absolutely no idea when it comes to basic common sense.

Some sort of a ballot system whereby lucky hunters would be allowed into the waterboard's land would not only be a far cheaper option, it would also be far less invasive and upsetting to the fragile environment. I don't even want to think about the utter waste involved in burying all those valuable deer in a pit.

Personally, I think these sort of lame and 'politically correct' policies will only increase in the future with our ever increasing urban population growth. Afterall, meat only comes in those little black trays in the supermarket, doesn't it?

Mick

[White Hawk]

I agree wholeheartedly Mick, it is disgraceful to propose they be buried. If there are hunters who are prepared to take the game for personal use, then why not let them at least make use of the meat? To simply bury is a shameful waste. These people are truly out of touch.

[Coach]

Well , it's going to keep happening until some one has the balls to put forward a proposal instead of complaining it it on here Make them see sense and maybe it will happen . HUNTERS need to band together and make their voice heard
Mick , will you do this ? Or is it a case of not wanting to make waves and look like a fool when no one else backs you ?
I am sorry if that seems harsh , but thats the way it is , we complain , but do NOTHING constructive /positive

[jindydiver]

Well , it's going to keep happening until some one has the balls to put forward a proposal instead of complaining it it on here Make them see sense and maybe it will happen . HUNTERS need to band together and make their voice heard
Mick , will you do this ? Or is it a case of not wanting to make waves and look like a fool when no one else backs you ?
I am sorry if that seems harsh , but thats the way it is , we complain , but do NOTHING constructive /positive

The ADA worked with Melbourne water to get hunters in there but were told that the deer would have to be left no matter what. The ADA backed away from the plan at that stage. It is all well and good to say that hunters should be doing the work, but when you know that the papers are going to end up running a story along the lines of "Bloodthirsty hunters shoot deer knowing full well they were not allowed to use them" you look for other ways. There are people working with DSE and MW to work at leaving this "bury the carcase" nonsense out of culls for the future.

[Mick Smith]

Coach

You might remember around 18 months or so back, I tried to organise some sort of bowhunter response group to counter negative press publicity. The effort was made on another archery forum. The outcome of that incident, where I not only received very little support, I was actually criticised by some site members, ended up as a farce. It was never a personal 'power play', in fact I'm not interested in power at all. I was dismayed that we bowhunters were constantly being 'put down' in the Australian media. There was never a balancing quote in defence of bowhunters in the media and I wanted to try to remedy that situation.

I got my fingers burnt once, so I'm not keen to do it again.

Mick

[Coach]

MS , I hear you , that was my point , people will whinge and Bitch , yet wont get off their ass to do anything about it And they wont back you when you go into bat for them .

[woody]

From the point of view of the water board management, they want the deer thinned because they percieve a possible threat to water quality.

Fair enough, thats their job.

They probably dont want the deer taken as venison after shooting because there is a chance the shooters will gut the animal in situ.

There is no way one shooters is going to shift an intact animal, Sambar are big.

Remember, unpollutted ground water quality is the concern.

My thinking is that the management tracks will be spotlighted and the head shot animals taken away after being winched onto the vehicle and then taken to the body pit.

Thats how I would tackle the job, if I was contracted to do such a distateful duty.

From a personal point of view, it does seem like a waste prime venison from a premier game animal.

[losty]

the use of the venison better not be banned because it seems more humane to the modern media educated folk. It bothers me when utilising an animal is seen as inhumane as it didnt grow on a foam packet and butchering the animal is seen as barbarism. If it needs to be shot so be it, but may as well be resourceful.

[nimrod]

so sorry to hear that this is to happen with you we had a problem 3 years ago in scotland whereby an estate was forced to cull roughly 3000 beasts in a six week period they used helicopters army snipers (drafted in under duress my mate was one ) the gamekeepers staged protests tried to fight it in court by the time any legal challenge could be raised it was over they buried carcases rather than give them away what started as one estate led to another three xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx goverments should have NO SAY in this type of matter as they have no respect for the welfare of the animals hugh

[GrahameA]

Woody

You are correct in everything you say and I agree.

From a personal point of view, it does seem like a waste prime venison from a premier game animal.

The problem with doing anything with the meat is the relevant health acts and litigation. It has to be noted that this a cull and not a hunting situation. And that changes the way things are.

If any of the meat was given away or consumed the body responsible for the cull would, in my opinion, be placing itself in a situation whereby litigation could occur if there were any negative effect. Imagine the upoar if meat from the cull was used at an event and the guests fell sick - becuase the meat was off. It is not worth the risk.

[jindydiver]

The ACT Government would have trouble running a pissup in a brewery and they can introduce legislation to prevent crap law suits, what is stopping the Vic Gov'?



http://canberra.yourguide.com.au/news/l ... 92566.aspx

The ACT Government has proposed changes to justice laws that will make it easier for people to donate food to charities.
The proposed changes will give donors better protection from being sued if the food they donate becomes contaminated during distribution.

Donors will be exempt from liability if the food was donated in good faith for charity, if the people who consumed the food were not expected to pay for it, and if the food was fit for consumption when it was handed over.

But charities and community groups who distribute the donated food will still be liable for any contamination. Chief Minister Jon Stanhope said the proposed changes would encourage businesses and individuals to donate high-quality food without unnecessary legal obstacles.

He said the Government and community groups had been running a test scheme using the new donation model for several months without incident.

Under the scheme community groups OzHarvest and Communities@Work had delivered about 8000 meals to people in need.

The changes will be tabled in the Assembly on June 26.

[piggy]

Just look at the kangaroo industry!
They have been doing this for years.
I know of game processors who would happily take the WHOLE beast but in this state you cannot process wild harvested animals for resale yet he can buy wild harvested deer from S.A. and Kangaroo, pig, buffalo, emu and goat from other states and resell it here.

I don't see any difference provided the entire process from shooting to processing is performed in a safe, controlled and hygenic manner.

My major concern with this is Will it continue and expand to other areas outside the catchments as the GOV is currently trying to get Sambar declared as a pest species to protect native flora.



Cheers

Paul

[greybeard]

Putting aside the total waste of a natural resource the government action [presumably using professional shooters] is probably the most efficient and time/cost effective way of carrying out the cull.

A ballot system for bowhunters to carry out the cull sounds nice but those lucky enough to have their name drawn out of a hat would surely have to prove that they can do a clean one shot kill. Imagine the nightmare trying to get a dozen bowhunters who could carry out the task.

How long would it take the lucky ones to shoot 400 deer?

How long would they take to remove the carcasses from the area?

If it was to happen that bowhunters were to do the cull the anti hunting lobby would be out in force to do their utmost to discredit bowhunting.
They would be out there doing all in their power to disrupt the bowhunter. All they need are a few photos of deer running around with arrows hanging out of the rump or elsewhere to discredit bowhunting. Some lobby groups will do whatever necessary to further their cause.
It is extra ammunition for them to discredit bowhunting.

It may be more beneficial to the bowhunting fraternity to present a case to the government on how to utilise animals killed in further culls.

Perhaps the government have done the bowhunter a favor?

Daryl.

[Coach]

Ahh , Greybeard the bowmaker , for the Target archer or re-enacter Great to see that you support the hunters in our sport . Did you ever think that Maybe there wouldnt be this problem if people were allowed to hunt them in the first place ?

A ballot system for bowhunters to carry out the cull sounds nice but those lucky enough to have their name drawn out of a hat would surely have to prove that they can do a clean one shot kill. Imagine the nightmare trying to get a dozen bowhunters who could carry out the task.

Seems ye have little faith
You have knocked hunters in the past , and are doing it again , and it ticks me off that someone who makes bows does this ! After all , bows were invented to do this !

Perhaps the government have done the bowhunter a favor?

Yeah right Perhaps you would like to see all bowhunting banned , so we aren't seen in a bad light ?
Then you could praise our Gov. again

[Paul]

Hang on a minute Coach I read the same post of Greybeards that you did and I didn't see an attack on bowhunting like the one you percieved. All I saw was some contructive debate on the culling of deer, unlike your usual negative rantings.
I'm a bowhunter first and foremost yet I agree with Greybeard in that if a quick efficient cull is wanted then bowhunters are not the best tool for the job. I do believe however that as part of a long term management plan bowhunting along with other forms of hunting would be of great benifit. Unfortunately for bowhunters in the area, the Govt organisation responsible believes that the best way to control the numbers of deer is to conduct a cull.

[Jeffro]

Hang on a minute Coach I read the same post of Greybeards that you did and I didn't see an attack on bowhunting like the one you percieved. All I saw was some contructive debate on the culling of deer, unlike your usual negative rantings.
I'm a bowhunter first and foremost yet I agree with Greybeard in that if a quick efficient cull is wanted then bowhunters are not the best tool for the job. I do believe however that as part of a long term management plan bowhunting along with other forms of hunting would be of great benifit. Unfortunately for bowhunters in the area, the Govt organisation responsible believes that the best way to control the numbers of deer is to conduct a cull.

Yep thats about how i saw it too Paul.

Greybeard makes longbows Coach and not any of the ones ive seen look like target bows or reinactment bows as you put it.They are longbows and pretty good too.
How many of his bows have you seen?im guessing none.

[Coach]

Sorry if I offended you fellas , but I read it in a more negative way I'll shut up now!

[matt61]

I just read that story in the Herald Sun and I'm now to scared to drink the water here because the so called expert who wrote the story reckons that those four hundred Sambar will provide 100,000 tonnes of meat. Must be something in the water

[Coach]

I just read that story in the Herald Sun and I'm now to scared to drink the water here because the so called expert who wrote the story reckons that those four hundred Sambar will provide 100,000 tonnes of meat. Must be something in the water

Might be good for the anorexics Just goes to show , you can't trust the Gov.

[greybeard]

Coach,

You, as always are the first with criticism but I have yet to see where you have offered any positive input to solve a problem. Have you ever lobbied governments to make bowhunting more accessible and to be an on ongoing process which may eliminate the need for culls?

I was not knocking bowhunters again, merely asking how they could logically carry out an efficient cull in that particular instant.

How would you solve the current Samba deer problem in that particular area of Victoria?

In your reply you made no mention of the anti hunting lobby. They do exist don’t they?

Your postings often portray [in your opinion] that people who do not hunt but instead choose to do field/ target archery as being less worthy.

To get the records straight [in your mind] I always enjoyed my hunting trips in the New England Tablelands but ongoing lower back problems [advanced decay in the lower vertebrae and gaseous discs] have put a stop to this activity. I now have to make do with the occasional 3D or paper target round. Unfortunately I am on the wrong side of sixty and the body is not what it used to be.

My love of the bow and arrow will never diminish! It is for this reason why I run bow making workshops as well as producing bows for hunters and target/field archers.

Jeff I was not knocking bowhunters as such, there are many that excel in what they do but unfortunately there are others that need to develop their expertise. In these situations could you imagine a public servant trying to work out who to recruit to carry out a successful cull and abide by the rules i.e. removal of the carcass from the area?

The reference to wounded animals was aimed at the anti hunting lobby that would use every ploy in their dirty tricks book to discredit the bowhunter. They would run any interference that they deemed necessary to disrupt or to stuff up a successful stalk/kill.

Perhaps it may not too late for bowhunters to get together and formulate a workable policy to submit to the relevant government bodies be they Federal or State to have an ongoing reduction programme of certain game in specific areas as apposed to an outright cull.

Maybe start by lobbing state and federal members of parliament.

It is up to the bowhunters to get the ball rolling, the ball is in their court.

Daryl.

[Coach]

To this

Your postings often portray [in your opinion] that people who do not hunt but instead choose to do field/ target archery as being less worthy.

is all I am going to address .
This is not the case , as I was very involved in the Target scene myself , as was my family . In saying that though , I do frown upon the Battle scene . As for the rest , I couldnt be bothered , as it will just go around in circles , and I'll just cop crap from certain others , who seem, cant let the chance go by to have a dig at me instead of responding to the original thread ,for the sake of doing so .
If I have mis-interpreted your original post , I apologize , I get a bit touchy if I think someone is bagging hunters .
Jeff

[matt61]

Maybe it could be done by teams of eight hunters each carrying twoway radios and GPS,S .Once a samber is taken the team is called to the location using the GPS,S and the sambar can be carried out whole or in peices by the team, guts and all,so the meat can be utilised and the offal disposed of away from the water catchment This is just a suggestion an idea, whatever you want to call it. I am not trying to dictate or tell people to run their lives or businesses.It is just my idea how it could be done.

[woody]

Maybe it could be done by teams of eight hunters each carrying twoway radios and GPS,S .Once a samber is taken the team is called to the location using the GPS,S and the sambar can be carried out whole or in peices by the team, guts and all,so the meat can be utilised and the offal disposed of away from the water catchment This is just a suggestion an idea, whatever you want to call it. I am not trying to dictate or tell people to run their lives or businesses.It is just my idea how it could be done.

matt,
When you and seven mates get together to carry out 400 whole Sambar through thick scrub, give me an email so I can come watch

Seriously mate, have you ever seen how big Sambar are. Even a back leg gets bloody heavy in very short time and distance.

The water authorities dont let people hunt in the catchment areas because they dont need gut piles contaminating the ground water catchement.

Wont happen in my lifetime Not legally anyway

[woody]

Just look at the kangaroo industry!
They have been doing this for years.
I know of game processors who would happily take the WHOLE beast but in this state you cannot process wild harvested animals for resale yet he can buy wild harvested deer from S.A. and Kangaroo, pig, buffalo, emu and goat from other states and resell it here.

I don't see any difference provided the entire process from shooting to processing is performed in a safe, controlled and hygenic manner.

My major concern with this is Will it continue and expand to other areas outside the catchments as the GOV is currently trying to get Sambar declared as a pest species to protect native flora.



Cheers

Paul

Paul,
I believe the Australian Deer Association have initiated a legal challenge to this ruling of which you speak of.

Its my belief that flapping our gums on an archery forum about these sort of topics, accomplishes nothing.

Any one who seriously wants to make a difference should become a financial member of the ADA, and help them fight the good fight on our behalf.

http://www.austdeer.com.au/index.php

[jindydiver]

The ADA have lost their legal action against the decision of the Minister

[buzz]

I think the days of state-facilitated hunting is rapidly drawing to a end. Ministers and politicians are so image conscious they don't want to be seen to be associated with something that some parts of the community might be upset about. The days of strong leadership of politicians are similarly dwindling and despite the best endeavours of senior publics servants or peak lobby groups where the decision ultimately rests with someone who is balancing image and public perception agaisant the matter at hand, often no amount of logic, mitigations, effort, commitment or signatures can sway them.

The ACT Kangaroo cull was a spectacular exercise in a very VERY small part of the community succesfully spreading dis-information for their own purposes.

[GrahameA]

Afternoon Mark

I think the days of state-facilitated hunting is rapidly drawing to a end. Ministers and politicians are so image conscious they don't want to be seen to be associated with something that some parts of the community might be upset about.

Opinion

It is not so much that some parts of the community might be upset but rather a critical mass of the community may view in a negative light and are willing to do something about.

Small or large groups or groups that are disorganised don't get a Guernsey as they are unable to bring pressure to bear where it matters. If you get the situation where there are to strongly conflicting views it is likely to get pushed aside and nothing will happen.

The ACT Kangaroo cull was a spectacular exercise in a very VERY small part of the community succesfully spreading dis-information for their own purposes.

IMHO They presented their case well. It was not dis-information but rather their viewpoint and whilst they really did not succeed in stopping the cull they did succeed in getting it on the front page and it will future events.

Most of the people on this forum are more likely to jump up and down saying how bad it was when the would be far better sitting down and observing how a small group of people can, and did, successfully sway public opinion. The next time such a cull is suggested in the halls of power it will be handled in a very different way and may I suggest their will be a short time between the decision and the action to prevent opposition the luxury of time.

Overall it would be good for people to consider the strategy and tactics employed by the NRA. Many lobby groups are using methods successfully pioneered by them.

[matt61]

Woody you did not read what I wrote very carefully, in the first line I used the word "teams" that is the plural form meaning "many" ie two teams or one hundred teams. As for getting Sambar out the bush I personally have got three out whole minus the guts with one other hunter.Also have a look in the latest Bowhunting downunder mag at the picture of Adam Greentree with a whole red stag on his back.

[mrkbsm]

Over here in the States they run into similar problems on a regular basis, though probably not with such large animals in such rough terrain. Usually they're busy hiring snipers & professional hunters to thin large deer herds that border on suburban/urban areas. Whether or not hunting the deer with snipers is a more humane way to get rid of them remains to be seen, but that's what the general public seems to believe. They end up paying thousands and thousands of dollars for services that hunters would gladly pay to do.
An interesting thing to note is that (I believe) quite often the venison taken in these situations is donated to local food shelters and soup kitchens to help feed the homeless, displaced, etc. Quite a few states actually have programs allowing hunters in general to donate their venison to such causes (good numbers of gun hunters here will take their trophy but don't want anything to do with the carcass afterward).
Recently a medical professional in the upper midwest (North Dakota, maybe?) took samples of rifle-taken deer and found that tiny fragments of lead ended up far beyond the wound into much of the meat. The high speed of the rifle bullet impacting the animal caused far more dispersal of fragments that people had realized. To remedy the situation they took entire supplies of the venison that they had on hand and dumped it all. So everything they currently had on hand was destroyed, and any new sniper-taken deer will also fall into the "bad meat" category.
It sounds like they might keep the venison programs going, but only allow deer taken with non-lead bullets and bows. It remains to be seen how things will all play out, but it's been pretty messy so far.