USA Archery - National Traditional Championships Equipment

[GrahameA]

Afternoon All

Some of you may find this an interesting read. These are the USA Archery rules re Traditional equipment and the original can be found here; http://www.usarchery.org/html/TraditionalRules.html

National Traditional Championships Equipment and Shooting Rules

I. At least two equipment divisions will be made (Note: there are now 3
divisions counting the "Traditional Recurve"):
a) "traditional longbow"--all--wood British longbows/American
flatbows without arrow rests/shelves;
b) "modern longbow"--longbows made with fiberglass or other
"modern" man-made materials and other longbows with arrow rests or shelves.
c) "traditional recurve" -- Recurve bows with wood handles or risers.

II. All competitors must shoot wood arrows.

III. Binoculars and spotting scopes are not permitted.

IV. Specific equipment rules:

A. General Rules
1. Longbow - is defined as a wood bow without recurve in
the limb tips, (i.e., the string must not rest on the upper or lower limb
but rather must contact the bow only at the string nocks.)
2. Stabilizers or counterweights, or bows built up to
serve the same function will not be allowed.
3. Protruding bow sights will not be allowed. However a
movable band/"o-ring" or rubber band on the bow limbs will be permitted as
long as this band is no larger than 1/8th inch wide or high. An
alternative allowed sighting method is the moveable "Point-of-Aim" on the
ground. This cannot exceed a height of 6" above the ground or be larger
than 3" in diameter.
4. No cusion plungers or similar mechanical or metal
apparatus shall be used. However, the side of the bow where the arrow
comes in contact with it may be built out slightly with a leather pad.
5. Arrows will be of wood and fletched with feathers.
Points shall be of a type that will not inflict undue damage to target
faces or buttresses. Arrows shall be identical in length, weight and
color, except for normal wear. Point weight may be of any value and is not
restricted to 125 grains.
6. Finger protection in the form of finger stalls or tips,
gloves, shooting tab or tape (plaster) is allowed to draw, hold back and
release the string, providing it does not incorporate anyh device to help
in holding, drawing and releasing the string. (For example, mechanical
releases or hooks anre not permitted.) A separator between the fingers to
prevent pinching the arrow may be used. On the bow hand an ordinary glove,
mitten or similar item, may be worn.

B. Traditional Longbow Division Rules:
1. British Longbow or American flat all wood bows without
arrow rests, shelves or center shot cut shelves are used in this division.
The bow may be laminated, but no man-made materials (beyond glue) may be
used as backing or in other layers of the laminate.
2. Horn string nocks are not required.
3. Fast flight or other similar newer type (limited
stretch) strings (except Dacron) are not allowed.

C. IBO and NFAA "modern" longbow Division Rules:
1. Longbows made with fiberglass laminates or other
"modern" man-made materials are allowed in this division.
2. Arrow rests, shelves and center shot cut shelves are
also allowed.

D. Traditional Recurve Division Rules:
1. Recurve bows with wood handles or risers are allowed in this division. Limbs may be wood or laminated with fiberglass or other “modern” man-made materials.
2. Arrow rests, shelves and center shot cut shelves are also allowed.

They have also updated their rules and those updates can be found here.
http://www.usarchery.org/html/tradition ... anges.html

Traditional Rule Changes
The Traditional Recurve division has recently made some major changes to give the wooden recurve shooter a chance to compare their scores with the target archers of the 1950's and 1960's. The below rules are a combined effort and compromise to best represent the archers of that era as a whole. Realizing not everything was exactly the same in that 20 year period, we sought to represent the majority in that era. We believe this will add much interest to the Traditional Recurve shooter and could also give the FITA shooter today a great way to warm up for the Outdoor Nationals.

The Traditional Recurve must have a wooden riser and can be either a one piece bow or a take down. No carbon limb composites or foam limbs, just wooden core limbs with glass overlays.

Arrows may either be wood or aluminum but may not be carbon or aluminum carbon composites. Arrows must have feather fletching.

Bow sights are allowed that are either wood, steal or aluminum construction (no carbon) using a single adjustable sight aperture with no magnification or level and must be directly attached to the bow with no extensions. A point of aim marker may also be used but not in the combination with a bow sight.

Bow stabilizers may also be used, but must be no longer than 10 inches in length and constructed either of wood , steel, brass, copper or aluminum. Rubber may be incorporated in the stabilizer but no carbon.

The use of a draw check mirror, level, string peep, clicker or other draw checking devices will not be permitted.

Bow string material will be limited to Dacron.

Arrow rests should not be used with a cushion plunger or Burger button. Flipper rests or duel prong rests will not be permitted. Arrow rests to be used are the Hoyt Super Pro Rest or equivalent or the Bear brush rest or equivalent.

[jape]

They've gone along way to keep it open and traditional with allowances for modern materials in the divisions but that 'traditional recurve' compromise seems daft to me! If you are going to glass laminates then what is wrong with metal risers? Some early recurves had them. I would stick all recurves, including DAS Dalaa types in with 'modern bows' alongside of lam longbows and flatties.

haven't we already done this debate and got a deletion from it ...

[GrahameA]

Hi Jape

Well for a FITA shooter it is interesting. The organisation that put those rules together is the equivalent of Archery Australia and is primarily interested in target archery. What I like about then is that they have updated their rules so that you could shoot the type of bow that was around in the 50's and 60's. So if you are interested in "Vintage" archery it makes life easier.

Given all of what they have said you could actually run an Archery Tournament as it was 50 years ago and that could be fun. They only need to progress a a few years and I will be able to shoot a bow that is actually from the era. Who needs a replica. A few more years and I will have a large collection to choose from.

There is nothing wrong with the newer stuff but what the organisers have tried to do is to develop a nostalgic division for those who want to shoot it. There may be at least one club that actually does such in Oz. Plus there are a number of clubs that shoot the old rounds occasionally - which is a step back in time. It makes for an enjoyable afternoon without pressure.

It is like driving a Vintage car - you do it for the fun of it. Plus you get the pleasure of fiddling with it and making things, etc., etc.

[jape]

em not arguring with ee mate!
anything that is done for the joy of it suits me fine

just that again it is a seemingly false division divide! i have been doing a lot of reading of late about bows all over the world and I can't personally see any practical division possible except between trad materials without synthetics and modern materials. and of course wheel bows.
in terms of design, recurves were around as long as longbows and up against them in many wars and I guess comps are modern wars.
but metal risers came in in the early 70's at least (Wing in 72), aluminium lams in Bears in 51 (!), so it seems to me material is the divider, not the style or year.

[GrahameA]

Hi Jape

I am not really interested in the divide, how they do it, why they do it or where they do it. What interests me is that what is one of the largest archery bodies in the world (USA Archery) has a set of rules for competition using older designed/manufacture/whatever bows and equipment. And it is even more interesting in that it has IBO and NFAA members on its board so it does represent a reasonable body of archers.

FITA does not have anything in place yet. So comes the day that FITA (or AA - probably accompanied by a winters chill in hell) decides to take another step forward there are a set of rules/regs in place that work. In my case I would suggest that taking a long hard long hard look at them would be a very good start point.

It is like a Standard - I may not love IEE1394 but it works and as long as your stuff complies with its requirements it will work.

Actually I will split this topic so as we don't pollute the original aim of this post.

[Brumbies Country]

Hi Grahame

Interesting re the rubber band/O ring that may be used for sighting and something that you were pushing in the rules we looked at maybe 12 months ago. Have to say I like the idea of shooting a traditional bow with no sighting mechanism but this certainly does lend weight to your notions re basic sight mechanisms.

Simon

[buzz]

Wood arrows, sighting marks and rubber bands. All ok. Thumbs rings probably not.

Looks good. Pragmatic, flexible, realistic.

[perry]

Thanks for these Grahame . Not that differant to what Greybeard have I have proposed and have on trial at the moment . Wonder if there is a bit of a to do over them . Remarkable some of the similarities .

They have gone a little further with a few points throughout the rules , string materials for one in the traditional bow division , probably because of greater numbers that source and shoot this type of gear than do over here . Had to smile at the touching only at the nocks rule - my warped sence of humour .

Quite fascinated with the old sighting methods being employed . I remember at the Grange Company of Archers the old coach called Sgt Major taught a front of face anchor , the band method , then a pin in a piece of felt stuck to the front of the riser before they gave up and Merve Kelly taught me to shoot barebow and a side of face anchor.

Jape I have referances to metal handled takedown bows from the 1880's or so , metal components [ hinges ] where used in the 17th century , perhaps earlier. I am sure metal risers are a victom of the nothing but things that where once alive in traditional archery syndrome.

regards Perry

[jape]

Jape I have referances to metal handled takedown bows from the 1880's or so , metal components [ hinges ] where used in the 17th century , perhaps earlier. I am sure metal risers are a victom of the nothing but things that where once alive in traditional archery syndrome.
regards Perry

I just coincidentally found a reference today, in Sam Fadala's 'Traditional Archery, to an 'ancient persian bow', all metal and drawing 90#. I won't follow that up further at the moment ...

[GrahameA]

Refer my earlier comment.

Without Prejuduce

There are records of all steel bows of Indian origin go back a long way. By the rise of the Mughals in the early 1500's they were in relative common use.

[jape]

I understood what you were saying Grahame, from the beginning and even if others are bored, I am not. This is not just intellectual wanking, it is an interesting subject and has meaning beyond just the competitions I think.

In the end it comes down to what the rules are as they exist, what is agreed upon and what can realistically get changed and how to do that. I do intend at some point to take part in competition, especially if they have an old gits division and especially if they allow walking aids, drug taking (legally prescribed, lol) and laser sights. My back is bad, my knees are gone, my elbows are stuffed and my eyes are going ... maybe they will allow me to use a stand-in, like a cricket runner, to actually draw and release for me? I will use whatever tool is best for me as best I can in whatever 'division' that implies or dictates, and do it for the enjoyment, not the points.

The original thread went a long way before it got bogged down and I wonder if someone more intelligent than me could summarise it? Other bits of the debate have become personal from passion and pedantry but it should continue until there is a result, something to put forward to powers that be, or maybe something to just be adopted and adapted by individual clubs over time.

Look at Mick Smith's thread on 'battle clout' and the amazing and immense interest in it - doesn't this show that on the whole, when the competitive part of tourney is turned into enjoyment and fun, all can join in and appreciate this wonderful sport? If I was a 'boss' of some archery regulatory body, I wouldn't have the heart to turn away a guy with anything other than a wheel bow machine just because his bow or arrow was a bit different in shape or material, as long as it conformed to the spirit of the thing. In the end this whole debate has been to my eyes about just that, what is the spirit of archery.

How can that ever be defined? No-one actually cheats, they can't stand ten foot closer or get someone to move their arrow a few inches! This is about archer against archer on the day, that is the only real level playing field there is, otherwise we will have to handicap people because of age, with 20/20 vision, naturally good reflexes, long arms and lots of money to buy a top bow.

If I thought someone was getting better results than me with any bow or arrow and it was because of that equipment, I have a choice. I have been re-thinking this whole issue soberly. I reckon one division called 'people with bows' would do it.

[GrahameA]

WITHOUT PREJUDICE

Posted only so that people can see what other organisations have done, (And to give Jape something to mull over.)

SCA Target Archery Rules

Note : General Standards
1. All equipment should be consistent with pre-17th century archery in looks and function.
....

Bows
1. Bows may be made of any material, provided they are judged safe to shoot by the Target Archery Marshal.
a. Bows of unusual materials or construction will be required to pass the inspection of the
Kingdom Archery Marshal or designated deputy.
b. No compound bows are allowed in competition. There will be no exceptions to this prohibition.
2. Adjustable or fixed sights are not allowed.
a. If adjustable or fixed sights are attached, they shall either be removed or made inoperative.
b. Sighting and/or ranging marks on the limbs or riser are allowed, except in divisions or
competitions that exclude their use.
3. There are no draw weight limits for target archery bows. However, should a Target Archery Marshal observe that an archer is using a bow too heavy or overdrawn for them to safely shoot, the Target Archery Marshal will require the archer to stop using the bow.
4. No modern spring/flipper rests or plunger buttons are allowed. The use of simple rests is allowed, such as simple one-piece plastic or non-adjustable wire rests; feather, bristle, leather, etc. rests; built out shelves or rests. The use of the shelf in a cutout window is also allowed.
5. No stabilizers, clickers, or modern string release devices are allowed.
6. Bows with cut-out risers (i.e., those that can be seen through from the side, often found in take-down bows with metal risers) must have the openings covered so as to present a solid surface and an appearance more in keeping with medieval archery equipment.
Crossbows
1. No non-period center-shot trackless crossbow styles are allowed.
2. No compound prods or break-cocking crossbow styles are allowed in competition. There will be no exceptions to this prohibition.
3. No archer shall continue to use a crossbow that is observed by a Target Archery Marshal to have too heavy a draw for the archer to use safely.
4. Prods of most materials are allowed, provided they are judged safe to shoot by the Target Archery Marshal. Prods of unusual material or construction will be required to pass the inspection of the Kingdom Archery Marshal or a designated deputy.
5. Simple rear sights are allowed. Front sights are not allowed.
6. Stocks may be of any material.
7. If a modern stock with openings that can be seen through from the side is used, all such openings must be filled or covered to appear more period. Openings that are intended for gripping the stock need not be covered. Openings may be covered with tape, leather, cloth, etc.
Strings
1. All strings shall be appropriate in length and strength for the bow type and weight. Linen, silk, artificial sinew, and any modern bowstring materials are acceptable, as long as strings are properly constructed.
a. Strings that have become knotted, or those that have been repaired by knotting strands
together, shall not be used. This rule does not forbid those string designs that incorporate
knots, such as a bowyer’s knot, in their original design.
2. A nocking point may be attached to the string. It may be made of metal or tied on. A single nocking point is allowed.
a. The nocking point may consist of one or two locators, which may be of any type.
b. The locators may not extend above or below the arrow nock in such a way that they are used as sighting mechanisms.
3. Peep sights or kisser buttons mounted on the string are not allowed.
Arrows and Bolts
1. All shafts shall be of wood or of bamboo-like materials.
2. Both self and footed shafts are permitted.
3. No broadheads or tips that cause excessive damage to the targets shall be used, except for special competitions using these heads with the permission of the Target Archery Marshal-in-Charge and the Kingdom Archery Marshal.
4. Fletched arrows and bolts shall have feathers or other pre-17th century material. Plastic vanes are not allowed.
5. Nocks for arrows, and caps, rings, or nocks for bolts may be of any material, provided they are securely attached.

Go here to read the rules in full:
http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/com ... _rules.pdf

And they will even let you use Alloy arrows if that is all you have when you first turn up - but you will not have you score recorded.

[jape]

Mulling away Grahame, ta. Sun is under the yardarm, nearly enough.

It is an incomplete listing ... they don't tell you that you have to wear a dress do they? I think some of the more macho bow users here might object to that unstated condition. And I can imagine the audience shock if some-one like, nah, no names, was to absent-mindedly lift his skirt and scratch his hairy posterior with a handy arrow tip ...

Apart from that, seems like common-sense when you consider one wouldn't need to dress anything up as 17th century. I guess sometimes it is handy having a King instead of a committee! Perhaps we just need another poll to choose a tradbow King and he can decide? Or the winner of the National comps could have the next year as ruler/dictator with regional Barons to enforce His rule. Hmm, bribery, corruption, droit de seigneur, brute force. Sounds like most existing human institutions, should work well enough.

[GrahameA]

Completely off the Topic

Evening

It is an incomplete listing ... they don't tell you that you have to wear a dress do they?

Garb requirements are part of the the event dress code - they have nothing to do with the Archery.

And I can imagine the audience shock if some-one like, nah, no names, was to absent-mindedly lift his skirt and scratch his hairy posterior with a handy arrow tip ...

That is why you have Marshals and Autocrats. You need to read that portion of another manual on how your are expected to act (with a large amount of decorum BTW).

Apart from that, seems like common-sense when you consider one wouldn't need to dress anything up as 17th century.

Note; It say pre C17. Note also the power invested in the Marshal.

[buzz]

For all the 'restrictions' on the SCA events, I seem to recall there is a surprisingly high record score for an IKAC event that I think came out of the US about a year or so ago. It is interesting to observe that in the last year the local scadians have really lifted their game with accuracy. But, they still maintained the key ingredient: fun!

[jape]

Grahame, well off topic but I wondered how the hierarchical system works in SCA. They seem like an interesting bunch, balancing fun and competition, functional dictatorship and consensus, tradition and modern reality within their paradigm. I guess there is a stage in most organisms when they function relatively well.

Marshalls, for instance, if they have the unrestricted power to adjudicate would hopefully have real experience and knowledge. If not they would be even worse than any board or committee and no scores would be relevant! Can one challenge trial-by-combat?

How do the Barons and so on get their titles, are they just chosen by their mates who hold the power, can one rise through the ranks by talent? Or is it down to who has knitted the most chainmail knickers for the 'boss'?

I am not particularly democratic in my views, but I do always wish to see a fair route for achievement and talent to be appreciated and rewarded. Or for me to get to the top.

Getting back toward topic, if any bloke with a badge and a feather in his cap can arbitrarily decide the rules on the day, whether something is in or out, then you could get factions and graft and at least, misunderstandings.

Actually, when it comes to all the 'letter' groups (AA, FITA and etc.) how are their decision makers chosen? Do they have certified courses or are they mainly old buggers who prefer sitting in committee rooms and wielding petty power over real bowmen, functioning like local councils and most other committees worldwide?

The thing that worries me about SCA is the word 'Society'.

[GrahameA]

Afternoon Jape

Grahame, well off topic but I wondered ...

What a "Poison Chalice" of a question or questions.

My considered comment would be, that from my experience with AA is that their people are highly competent and in my experience, given all the restraints and the aspirations of a variety of parties, they make what they consider to be appropriate decisions.

I am not a member of other archery organisations and thus decline to comment.

[TomW]

Actually, when it comes to all the 'letter' groups (AA, FITA and etc.) how are their decision makers chosen? Do they have certified courses or are they mainly old buggers who prefer sitting in committee rooms and wielding petty power over real bowmen, functioning like local councils and most other committees worldwide?

What a suggestion!

It isn't for the likes of me to comment on issues like this, lacking tact and diplomacy as I do, however I have had occasions in the past couple of years when I have had extensive correspondence with both AA and FITA on a number of issues and have some opinions on those erstwhile organisations. My opinions are not for publication.

I'm just not certain that Grahame's are entirely correct - depends how you read it, I suppose.

[jape]

[ snip lacking tact and diplomacy as I do, however I have had occasions in the past couple of years when I have had extensive correspondence with both AA and FITA on a number of issues and have some opinions on those erstwhile organisations. My opinions are not for publication ......I'm just not certain that Grahame's are entirely correct - depends how you read it, I suppose.

I gave up diplomacy years back. At least you try Tom, I can't be bothered with all that nonsense. Talk straight, be polite, and if they are then shown to be wankers, ignore em, shoot 'em or play a different game. If I am ever wrong, I have been known to apologise, but I am hardly ever wrong, .
Grahame is obviously extremely diplomatic, has to be so on here, and probably kinder than me too.

[TomW]

Jape

I try very hard to emulate John Churchill, The 1st Duke of Marlborough of whom it was said that the key to his greatness was his ability to "tolerate fools gladly". I fail in this continually.

That said, even the Duke had his moments, viz:

As a strategist he preferred battle over slow moving siege warfare; even if the immediate cost – such as at the Schellenberg – was high.

Translate that into diplomacy and we find a man after me own heart, bless him!

[buzz]

Is there any guidance on what is a 'period release'? I was fishing around for info as I'd thought SCA types couldn't use stringwalking, but I couldn't find anything the Archery Target Handbook, and the only hard comment was from IKAC rules that even then wasn't that binding.

Archers may use any period style release appropriate for their bow, but are not required to do so.

[GrahameA]

Morning Buzz

Use a release that is period. The onus is on the Archer to prove that is period. So for a Mongolian or a Maygar an appropriate thumbring would be okay. And if it was a Korean bow then other styles could be used. Or at least that is my interpretation of it. Ask Sabine.

Now remember that Estrucan release I came across some time ago...

[buzz]

It think it was the good Lady Sabine who commented upon my (mundane) performance in my first an IKAC "Yes,... but now you have to try it with funny sleeves".

More research beckons, methinks!

[jape]

Now remember that Estrucan release I came across some time ago...

I think I read about that in 'The Perfumed Garden', or was it the Kama Sutra, I get confused.

[buzz]

Tantric Archery Weekly?

On a Trad note, young Tim G, aka Timmah from here scored a win in his class at the ACT Archery Field Championships here in Canberra last week with his horsebow.

[Brumbies Country]

Hi Mark

Sounds like Tim and James had a mighty battle in the trad class. I saw Tim the week before at TAC field course and he confessed to having a stable of 13 bows. Now that is becoming impressive . Young fella and single he does not have to answer at this stage to anybody re his bows, which is an enviable position. I'd really like to know which of his trad bows he thinks is the best.

Simon