What is it with Bowyers in Australia ?

[Coach]

I just want to know why bowyers in Australia don't seem to want to be known ?
I seem to be seeing more and more "PM so and so on the site " if ya want a bow .
Surely this is not a secret society Why dont the bowyers out there advertise more ?
Seems a lot of people want a custom made bow from an Australian maker , yet when recommendations are given , it is asked to do so via PM etc .
Why don't you bowyers out there make your name known ?

[Mick Smith]

I don't really know why that is Coach. Maybe most of them work full time and just make bows in their spare time and as a consequence they don't want to get snowed under with orders. Maybe they don't want the tax man to know about their additional incomes, but as I said, I don't really know.

I think the market in Australia might be too small to support more than one or two full time bowyers. I would imagine that an up and coming full time bowyer would be only too keen to advertise their products.

I also think some excellent part time bowyers don't wish to appear too forward or pushy, so they tend to sit back a bit.

However we are in the fortunate position of having more than a few exemplary bowyers here in this country, you just need to know who they are though.

Mick

[Coach]

I think the market in Australia might be too small to support more than one or two full time bowyers.

I doubt it ,, people would support Aussie bowyers if they had a quality product , How much easier would ot be to get a bow ?

However we are in the fortunate position of having more than a few exemplary bowyers here in this country, you just need to know who they are though

As I said , is this a secret society ?

[Mick Smith]

Coach

I think there's a few really keen part time bowyers in this country who aren't afraid of having their name mentioned on-line. I also believe that these same people mightn't see the need to advertise as they probably getting more than enough work already by supplying clients who have come to know them by word of mouth.

I also believe that most of us, me included, are usually not inclined to mention part time bowyers on-line, as we might not be too sure whether they will appreciate it or not, hence the PM's.

It might be good, in a way, that some of our best bowyers don't get overrun with orders, as that would be a sure way for them to increase their prices. You can still buy a world class bow in Australia for much less than the equivalent standard of bow from the States, so I suppose it works in our favour as buyers to a certain degree.

Mick

[Steven J]

G'day Coach and Mick,

I'll stick my neck out here. I am trying to develop a part time business building bows. I am trying to improve my product all the time. I declare my income to the tax man and have an ABN for this business.

Mick knows that I build bows, but as he has said he is unsure whether to make this known far and wide.

The main factor here is that is that I am also working full time and build bows in the evenings and holidays (I am luck that I am a school teacher so I get a fair few of those ). The number of bows that I currently build is already a sacrifice to the family. My wife and I have two girls (1 and 5) and I do not want to place bow building above their needs. I would love to be able to give up one day a week of my regular job and build a few more bows. It is a pretty scary thing giving up a regular income with all the entitlements such as sick leave and superannuation to pursue bow building. I think I will have to step out on a limb soon.

Anyone who surfs the web and checks out the Wildwood Traditional Archery web site may have noticed that I am building longbows for Gavin and Leigh. I can only take on a limited number of custom orders on top of that work.

My aims as a bowyer are to build bows that perform great, but that are finished 100% perfect. I hate the idea of having a bow in public with my name on it that has flaws in the finish.

I also agree that many Australian made bows go for very reasonable prices. I guess that I find it hard to price my bows too high as I think "I can't afford that" when I quote. Actually the whole reason I started building bows is because I was too cheap to buy one when I wanted to start the sport. I actually still use the second bow that I ever built as my number 1.

As Mick suggests, most bowyers don't want to get snowed under. I still want time to muck about making selfbows and doing other crafty things.

Maybe we should get known a bit more.

I would like to know why so many Australian knife makers are so modest about their work, but that is another thread

Steve

[Chase N. Nocks]

I really agree with the Coach's sentiments. The only way I have learned about the number of Bowyers in Oz is usually reading through the various posts and replies on this web site. I'd also like to see more reviews done on Aussie bows backed up by diffrent owners of the same bow or by the same bowyer. Like the TradGang where there are a lot of reviews. lets face it, most of the guys in Oz that do buy overseas bows are using these reviews as a point of reference. I could do a review in my perks recurve but since they are no longer available that would be pretty academic and of limited interest I suppose.

Now as to Steve, His position is also perfectly reasonable and requires no justification. His attitude to his bows when he finds the time seems uncompromising. Steve, I have only seen your bows in the PDF that Wildwood have made available so I look forward to seeing them in the flesh. They look absolutely beautiful. I can honestly say that it is only the second time since I started archery that I have seriously considered purchasing a non glass bow. The other time being Greybeards bows. He is also a gentleman who cares about his bows.

Cheers

Troy

[GrahameA]

Morning All

I think the market in Australia might be too small to support more than one or two full time bowyers

I don't think there is a single full-time bowyer in Oz. I would love to be proven wrong on this. There use to be but I think he may have changed his situation.

The market is small and the return for the amount of time it takes to make a bow is even smaller. Competition is extremely high - even more so with a rising dollar that is seeing imports drop in cost everyday.

The probable solution to going full time is to make a standard design bow that can be mass produced. And that means the end of individuality for the bows. You would probably be better off getting them made overseas and importing the completed bow.

Consider how many bows, and at what price, need to be made and sold for a person to make a reasonable living out of it.

Is it a secret society - definitely not in my opinion. All you need do is ask. If you want an Australian made bow ask at your local club.

The next obvoius question is, "What about shops"? My answer is that that is not where the market is. Compound sales swamp all other sales. Even to have non-compounds in stock is a big ask for a retail shop.

Personally I think people should be extremely grateful for the Traditional Craftsmen that do exist. I would love to have more but I don't see it happening.

[greybeard]

Coach, a difficult question to answer.

I think Steven J has summed up the situation fairly well re work and family commitments.

I very much doubt that an individual bowyer could even earn a modest income (after expenses) making bows forty hours a week. One also has to take into account a percentage of failures such as natural materials having a fault that is not evident to the naked eye. Fortunately this has only happened to me once where I had to make a second bow to fulfil a ‘custom’ order. Twenty hours or more labour plus materials down the drain, a substantial cost that cannot be recouped. Missing the requested bow weight is not as drastic as you have a bow to put into stock but you have to make another bow to fill the order.

I am very appreciative of the unexpected ‘custom’ orders that I have received through my postings via this website. These postings were put up to encourage others to make their own bows and help preserve the craft.

Although I like making and experimenting with bows (I wear the cost of experimental bows and forms) at my own pace I do get immense satisfaction from running bow making workshops even though the financial rewards may not be as big. The satisfied expressions on the clients face when they shoot their first lot of arrows is really rewarding.

I have found that the best way to sell bows or to gain orders is to attend trad shoots with three or four different styles of bows so people can try before they buy.

Being a self funded retiree for almost fourteen busy years I find bow making helps to keep the brain active and to make a little extra money to update workshop equipment and travel to as many traditional shoots as possible. Having reached the big ‘60’ I certainly don’t want to work forty hours a week as I have heaps of other things to do apart from the housework, gardening and the associated odd jobs.

Daryl

[Steven J]

Troy,

The bows that I make for Wildwood are laminated fiberglass bows. You may be mistaken that they are selfbows, because they have clear glass over the timber laminations. I have a go at selfbows too but have not gone to far in that area yet.

I am currently trying to shoot my little bamboo backed ironbark bow to death to critique my design. I think I may have built to conservatively though as no changes have been seen in the tiller after about 1000 arrows. It is still a good little bow, though it only draws just over 35lb.

I had the absolute pleasure of shooting alongside Greybeard at the Great Southern Tournament in Morewell. He was shooting a Red Ash selfbow there that was finished to a beautiful standard.


Grahame,

I agree with your comments. It is probably cheaper to buy a bow from overseas (Asia), however many well known bowyers (particularly in the US) charge a hefty price for their name. I tend to think that many designs sell well because they look technical and complex when unstrung. "If it looks technical, then it must be better". This is an untested opinion to date.

Dean Torges describes laminated bows as rather plain and boring and feels that bowyers admit this in their desire to customise the riser. I would not go so far as to agree fully, however I think he is partially right. If I can make a good riser in a bow that performs well and finish it to an exemplary standard then I feel I have done my job.

For example, I have nearly finished a bow, that I am building for a fellow who is a reptile enthusiast. He wanted the look of a red belly black snake in the riser. As you say, a standard design can't cater for this degree of personalisation. It is not the worlds most complex design, however the owner has gained a great deal of satisfaction by being involved in the design from the beginning. I'll post a small picture to accompany this comment.

I basically look at my sales of bows as an income that allows me to continue my hobby. Someone buys a bow and that allows me to purchase tools or machines or the materials to do some experimentation. If I was not able to make and sell bows, I could not afford to continue on the learning curve that I am enjoying so much.

Have a good day,

Steve

[Steven J]

Good morning to you Daryl. You were posting as I was making my comments also.

Steve

[greybeard]

Good morning Steve,

That handle section looks great. I can imagine your customer has a grin from ear to ear.

At times I wonder if people fully appreciate the extra time required to get the handle components to fit snugly so as to maintain even glue lines.
Can you post a photo of the bow when it is finished?

Daryl

[GrahameA]

Hi Darryl and Steve

Code: Select all

I basically look at my sales of bows as an income that allows me to continue my hobby.

I agree totally. I am of the opinion that is about the best you can hope for. In my case I don't make bows for people just for myself - I know my limitations.

I have often thought about getting a riser milled - but I think you would struggle to sell it for what it cost to make. And then you have the issues of actually selling it. The other option that is probably worthwhile exploring is making a riser from timber. The real thing here is that people can then go and buy whatever ILF limbs they want which provides for a very flexible operation. However you can buy very good risers for around $250 - so you would struggle to make cost even there I fear.

Love the riser. Andy Soars in the UK will decorate the back of limbs if you want. That provides an opportunity to make bows look different without going insane. Have a look at the design on the back of the bow on this page: http://www.andy.soars.btinternet.co.uk/hawk.htm

Code: Select all

At times I wonder if people fully appreciate the extra time required to get the handle components to fit snugly so as to maintain even glue lines. 

Absolutely not. The only people who understand the issue are those who have tried to do it.

[TomW]

Steven j

That riser is beautiful! I'd love to be able to do that. It's an absolute puzzle to me how you did the insert bit to that shape and keep it in one piece. Brilliant work.

Best regards

Tom

[Nephew]

For my money, I'd rather buy ANYTHING that's Australian made that matches the quality of foreign imports, even if I have to pay a few more bucks for the privilege. Very nice looking riser, btw, Steve. Really like the Wildwood site too.

[clinglish]

I am enjoying this thread ,Well done Coach.
I don't own an Aussie made Bow, I used to have a Perks stingray that I sold to Mick and it was great ( Whoever has it now I would like to buy it back). When I am thinking about buying a bow I use the different sites to get the general consensus .I am not really looking for the vital Stats, more the emotion shown when the bow is shot. Perhaps we as aussie trad shooters should be reviewing the Aussie bowyers in this manner.
just my thought

[perry]

Cliff Turpin has been making selfbows and associated accesories full time for more than 10 years mostly catering for the reinactors and is the only full time bowmaker too my knowledge in this country .

I have found that the bowmakers in Australia rarely have a bow design that is what I have been looking for . I do have a real liking for Glenn Newells Defiant range but could never afford one .

Recently I did find a bit of cash and saw a bow design on the net in the states I had been designing in my head for years . Nobody in Australia has a bow anything like it , it was the design I wanted , draw weight I wanted and 62 " instead of 64 " I could live with that - under $600 Australian landed , exchange rate etc , a custom bow available for immediate delivery . It may only have been a few hundred under the cost of a Defient but that was my maximum spend so I went to the US

I will stick my neck out here - I see the majority of bowmakers in Australia tend to stick with tried and true favourites like Hill Design longbows & Howatt Hunter rip off recurves and dont do a lot of development work but seem to copy oversea's trends . Which in my mind indicates a very small market as someone mentioned before .

Little steps and in time we will end up with a good range of full time custom bowmakers in this country , we just gotta get government to do something with taxes both import and local to give these fella's a foot up and make general archery accesories more affordable in this country - Its a disgrace that I can buy my gear from the states and land it here for near the wholesale price off the same goods to dealers or bowmakers . regards Perry.

[clinglish]

What did you buy from the states?

[GrahameA]

Hi Perry

Little steps and in time we will end up with a good range of full time custom bowmakers in this country , we just gotta get government to do something with taxes both import and local to give these fella's a foot up and make general archery accesories more affordable in this country - Its a disgrace that I can buy my gear from the states and land it here for near the wholesale price off the same goods to dealers or bowmakers . regards

IMHO

If you increase import duty the cost will rise for all archery equipment. The Government will make money and the archery market will shrink. Australian made equipment is competitive now. Many archers seem to be especially reactive to price.

If you are able to import from the states at a cost that is close to wholesale then I would humbly suggest that the importers have a problem and need to renegotiate their prices (because they should have the advantage of buying in bulk) or you are an excellent negotiator and well done on getting the price down.

I don't import as I can get everything I want from the people I deal with and I am happy to pay their prices.

However - this is the killer - if I was in the market for a new bow then competition from the UK is pretty tight. But against that I trade off warranty hassles.

Regarding bow designs. I see very little change anywhere.

[Chase N. Nocks]

Sometimes the exchange rate can be a huge deciding factor, but sometimes things don't add up. Certainly I would have thought that better prices could be negotiated. Typically if you look at examples below for pricing

Bear Kodiak Magnum US$ 399 converted AUS$ 469 aust supplier $ 750
Super Mag US$ 329 converted AUS$ 387 aust supplier $ 630
Bear Montana L/B US$ 289 converted AUS$ 340 aust supplier $ 575
Verna L/B US$ 280 converted AUS$ 329 aust supplier $ 325
Viper Delux US$ 210 converted AUS$ 247 aust supplier $ 370

Of course there are things like transport and GST to consider. But there is almost a $300 discrepency for the
Kodiak Magnum. But as GraemeA said the aussie supplier should be getting an advantage for bulk purchasing. So no wonder
some are importing items, even with $100 freight charges. I also wonder why such a large discrepency between
the Montana and the Verna.

Even if we get one or two traditional archery supply companies here in Oz that promote and sell trad gear both home grown and imported.

Wildwood seem to be on the right track and as they reinvest in their own business, which they can only do with our support, they will increase their product range I'm sure. Someone has already suggested, possibly tongue in cheek that they sell Bear recurves etc. It may be that they look forward to this eventuallity. I personally would look forward to such and tradbow outlet in Oz. I only use Wildwood as a well known example and would never presume to give them direction. I merely express a willingness to support such a business, as I have already. Even moreso as they extend their range.

Maybe I'm talking through my hat, because I am not a bowyer and have the greatest respect for those that are. Full time
seems a difficult ask but not an impossibility. There must be some techniques that the overseas guys are using that allow
some of them to be producing some of the best bows I have ever seen and shot in such good turn around times.

Lets support the Aussie stuff for sure, but you can't blame people for not spending $400 to $1000 for homegrown when they have heard little about it and never seen or shot one. The guys that do own Aussie made stuff would help considerably by posting some information about the bows..a few more reviews would be nice. Many of the guys that have bought overseas are doing so because they read the reviews on the tradgang forum. What makes the bows by Steven J immediately impressive is good broshure and promotion and the backing of a company that many of us know and trust.

[Coach]

Bear Kodiak Magnum US$ 399 converted AUS$ 469 aust supplier $ 750
Super Mag US$ 329 converted AUS$ 387 aust supplier $ 630
Bear Montana L/B US$ 289 converted AUS$ 340 aust supplier $ 575
Verna L/B US$ 280 converted AUS$ 329 aust supplier $ 325
Viper Delux US$ 210 converted AUS$ 247 aust supplier $ 370

Just goes to show how greedy some shops can be They whinge and bitch about how tight bussiness is when it comes to Trad stuff , yet they only have themselves to blame .
Part of the reason of starting this thread , was hopefully to see some more limelight shed upon our bowyers and hopefully encourage some bowyers to come out and so we could support them and keep our money in Australia .
It would be good to have the Aussie alternative , but until they let themselves be known a bit more , our money will continue to go O/S

[perry]

Grahame I didnt say import tax should be increased - seems a silly idea to me . If you keep you spend under $1000 [ never spent more than $600 ]and buy when the Australian dollar is strong against the US dollar it is very cheap to import archery gear as against buying articles I need from every Aussie dealer I've ever dealt with , not only that they stock what I'm after . I'm as proud an Aussie as you will find but the reality of it is that you can import cheaper than buy locally . You can even buy imported oranges and banana's cheaper than locally grown produce , not all of us can afford to buy 100 % Aussie . It seems that somewhere along the line Government got it wrong . regards Perry

[Jaydo]

yeah i agree, i mean im in no need of a custom bow as yet , one day however, but just looking at the prices it seems stupid to spend an extra $300 just because its in an australian store.
maybe its time for someone in australia to step up and say yeah, ill do it
cause they will get a lot of customers.

[White Hawk]

Hey folks,
if I can throw my 10c in, I would like think that Leigh and I are heading in the direction you folks are talking about with Wildwood. We have made good in roads into getting good quality bows into the country with our Toth bows, that can get people off and running at a reasonable price.

We have also endeavored to get Aussie bowyers on the map and our backing of Steven Jawerth's Raptor series longbows is the first step.
As we only do this part time at this stage things happen slower than we would like, but I assure you they are happening. In fact we have another bowyer in the pipe works already.

I would say that you all also keep in mind the 'hidden' costs involved in importing bows into this country. The import tax's and duties, added to the GST are a burden for small operators. The government does no favours for small business from where I stand. Speaking only for ourselves, we do not get a bulk discount from our supplies in the USA only a small discounted wholesale price.

It is our hope to add several more Aussie bowyers to our company next year, once we can find people that a) are willing to do commercial work and b) do work we consider to be of a very high standard. We have passed up a few cheaper overseas lines as we felt that as a trad archers people generally prefer quality.

In fact I see no reason we can't start selling Aussie Bowyer's fine work back to places like the USA. Especially with some of the beautiful timbers available to us in Australia.

So in summing up I would say things are changing, and both Leigh and myself believe passionately in our home grown boywers. We can't make bows, but what Leigh and I can do is provide a forum and exposure to those who are willing to put their stuff out there. Steve is a perfect example of someone that deserves the opportunity to have his craft out their for other to enjoy and at the same time be rewarded for the hard work and hours he has put into perfecting the craft. Anyone who was at the Great Southern will attest to that I have no doubt.

happy shooting

Gav

[archangel]

Interesting discussion. Mick wrote at the start of this thread:

I don't think there is a single full-time bowyer in Oz. I would love to be proven wrong on this.

Chris from Molinjor Longbows runs a full-time business and has been making bows for several years. While not promoting his bows ahead of any others on the market, I have been into his well-equipped workshop and his setup would be the envy of many an aspiring bowyer. He offers a range of bows featuring aussie timbers and proven timbers like myrtle and blackwood in his limbs. His business speaks for itself, with many of his bows now being shot around the clubs as people look for a different challenge and go "trad". I can't afford one of his bows at this stage but he has been invaluable with advice on coaching, building bows and archery in general - at the end of the day, he is supporting traditional archery. While I accept that some styles of bow are not available (yet) here in Australia, we do need to promote our local bowyers and support our industry.

http://www.molinjor.com/molinjor/show_p ... ategory=34

[Mick Smith]

Archangel

Actually, it was Grahame who wrote those particular words.

Mick

[jcm]

On a glue break. Read the many fine points presented.
The time has come to promote our local bows and bowyers.
Tell the potential buyers about the bowmakers and their bows.
Support the local guy.
Sites like Wildwood are good vehicles to present the many bowmakers
and their creations.
So to each a challenge - action not words. Help the local producer grow so we can start exporting to the world.
Back to the glue. Good night
John

[CM Sackett]

I have made some (too few, considering how many superb crafters I've found among you) queries into purchasing some of these beauties. Thoughts of "liability" seems to have been on the mind of more than one bowyer.


Sackett

[Steven J]

Sackett, you mention the idea of liability. I figure that you are referring to the possible injury if the bow breaks, rather than someone shooting the neighbours cat.

As for breaking a bow, I have tried to break one of my bows and just couldn't do it. I clamped the bow in a vice and pulled with the string on until I was scared of loosing the string off the nocks . I then pulled with my hands on the end of the limbs and my foot on the vice. Maybe I could have broken it, but I applied what I consider to be excessive force and I did not break it . I guess if I clamped it down and pulled it with the car, I would probably break the limbs, but I could not get the car in the workshop .

The bow is 65lb which is too much for me to handle well (poor skinny me ). I felt a bit guilty trying to damage a bow that still shoots well, but I felt that it was important to get an idea of what the bows could handle. It is the first bow I made (which is why it was so high above my target draw weight of 40lb. It also has a really ugly splice of the laminations over the riser. I have done other forms of durabilty testing (or abusing) on this bow such as leaving it strung for months (no effect on sting follow) and leaving it strung in a hot car (added a touch over 1/4" of string follow). I now have a chronograph and would like to repeat the experiment one day and get some figures to go with my anecdotal evidence.

If anyone managed to break one of my bows, I would love to know how they did it. Off course, if someone set out with that in mind they would have to forfeit the warranty

Steve

[CM Sackett]

Well done, Steven... that should make for quite a reliable partner for the bush or mountain!

And yes, it was a concern over "personal injury". I think this nation's recent (in the last 30 years) penchant for "I'LL SUE!!!" had far more to do with that concern than any possible lack of 'quality' in their fine craftings.

Again, well done... well built!
Sackett

[Steven J]

Sackett,

It is a shame that some people feel the need to threaten others with being sued to ensure their safety.

I would hedge my bets that most laminated longbows that are have fiberglass back and belly and are glued appropriately would suffer the same kind of testing. The fiberglass is incredibly tough stuff and the large surface area for gluing means even a few dry spots in the glue if they happen to occur would be acceptable.

Steve