Crossbows

General discussions. Politics, scuttlebutt, whatever: you're getting married, changing jobs, got a gripe or a compliment, dying to get out with the bow etc.....

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gundy
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#1 Post by gundy » Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:52 am

To add to this thread topic, I noticed a picture in the Herald Sun photo magazine they are currently doing at the moment, of a small Roo with a cross bow bolt through the back of its neck.

The caption refered to the bolt as an 'arrow'....I wish they would learn the bloody difference.

I would not mind to know if the pelican also had a bolt, refered to as an arrow??????

Somebody needs to be sitting at the top with full representation so that this anomoly "descriptive" can be rectified once and for all.

Dennis La Varenne
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#2 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:19 pm

Gundy,

I wish to raise some issues on the matter of crossbows now that they have been brought into the thread, even though it is a really off-topic. If any debate follows, it should be split to another thread.

My post is quite long, but it is an important issue for reasons which will become clearer below.

The point you raise about the difference between arrows and bolts raises some issues about crossbows that I would like to discuss on this thread. Please do not assume that the matters raised are directly against you. They are general in nature on the matter of crossbows.

The difference between arrows and bolts is largely a matter of a nicety of technical definitions within archery and is not necessary or reflected in the attitudes of our lawmakers or the general public. Even if they realise the difference, the popular conception of crossbows is that it is most certainly a form of archery whether we like it or not, and they will react accordingly.

We, in mainstream archery/bowhunting are the responsible parties too much of the vandalism involving crossbows in this community because of our continuing refusal to allow these people to shoot at our venues under common rules of safety and social responsibility. It is we who turn these people into archery pariahs, and when they go out and shoot wherever they want and at whatever they want, we suffer the consequences because the general public and our lawmakers most certainly do regard crossbows as part of archery whether we like it or not. And, they act accordingly.

I have found it very interesting to see the reaction of mainstream archers/bowhunters to pictures in the media involving vandalism where crossbows have obviously (to us) been involved. We disavow their use and let it be know that we don’t accept them as we consider them not to be a legitimate form or archery. Constitutionally, ABA does not recognise crossbow archery/hunting as a legitimate form of archery. We are very quick to make this known when acts of vandalism occur.

Interestingly, when conventional arrows are involved as they sometimes are, we go very silent and hope the matter will go away, or try to shift the public view away from our pursuit by intimating that it was probably/possibly not one of ours.

I suggest that the relatively small amount of vandalism involving conventional archery equipment is the result of our making our clubs open to those who want to learn to shoot them properly and responsibly. This is not provable of course, but our attitude to crossbowmen reflects little more than an unreasonable and unjustifiable prejudice. I have not heard a single decent reason why they should be pariahed in this way.

First we turn them away, then they commit an act of vandalism, and then we use that vandalism as the reason for refusing to allow them to join us. We create the feedback loop which creates the problem. The social problems surrounding misuse of crossbows are no different to those which would exist with conventional bows if there were nowhere to safely and responsibly shoot them.

I have heard the argument that crossbows are easier to shoot than a conventional bow. That is a nonsensical red herring. Anybody can go to an archery dealer and buy a light draw weight bow and shoot it over the back fence and skewer livestock with no trouble at all. They are no different it crossbows in this matter.

For many years I have listened to and tried to inform myself on the matter of crossbows and the related polemics in regard to their use (for there seems to little common sense involved), and I have come to the view that crossbows and their use is as much a valid form or archery and bowhunting as any other form.

I used not to think this way for many years. Indeed, I thought that their use was fraught with all kinds of anti-social and anti-archery/bowhunting problems.

I changed my mind after I decided to investigate them directly. I bought a kit from Ausbow Industries – his mediaeval Cressy crossbow and assembled it to safe shootable stage. It is a very traditional crossbow, having no sights or trigger or firearm-like stock. The prod is mounted on a tiller and the nut held by a sear tripped by a tickler bar. It is hand spanned (drawn). It draws 125lbs at 14 inches and shoots very accurately indeed, but not significantly faster than a conventional well made 60lb longbow or recurve.

Although not traditional, for modern times, some sort of safety catch would be preferred (by me). The only harm to come from discharging it without a bolt laid on the tiller would be that it would be damaged possibly by accidental discharge in the same way as a conventional bow would be if loosed without an arrow from full draw. A safety catch would only prevent tripping of the nut when the bow is spanned. Common sense safety says you don’t lay on a bolt until the shot is to be taken.

In this respect, I don’t see any kind of safety problem with their use on field archery courses provided they are not allowed to be spanned or a bolt laid on the tiller until the shooter has toed the mark and ready to take the shot. At all other times, the crossbow remains unspanned.

Restricting their upward draw weight can easily alleviate any potential problems with damage to target butts. But I am not at all sure if this is a problem of any kind. The nature of the damage to my black Group 3 pic at 15m is no different to that from any of my longbows.

By comparison, I consider that there are drawbacks to crossbows than there are with conventional bows. They are used by people who like them and are prepared to live with those drawbacks just as we trad archers do with out slower bows.

Crossbows are much slower to get into action any day of the week, and they are NOT easy to span at all unless you are able to make up a cranequin (a hooked lever using leverage to span the crossbow). They do have the one single advantage of pure pinpoint accuracy if they are set up properly and the bolts are made properly (this is a real art, believe me). They also have a lot of legal baggage surrounding their possession and use, and arguably, those who do get a licence for one here in Victoria are as legally checked out by Police as any firearm owner – something no conventional archer is subject to. Crossbowmen have a set of public bona fides that no conventional archer does.

Here in Victoria, to own one, a person must take out a special licence or be the holder of a Longarm licence. Both cost the same and storage requirements for a crossbow are the same as for a firearm. But they are NOT a firearm or resemble one in any form. The stock you see on most of the modern crossbows preceded the firearm. Early firearms use the crossbow tiller, not vice versa. Their method of propulsion of a projectile is exactly the same as a conventional bow and they shoot a short arrow termed a bolt by crossbowmen.

I would like someone to advance an argument demonstrating reasons why crossbows should not be part of mainstream archery which are not acts-of-faith type argument.

Anyway, enough from me. Comments please?

Dennis La Varenne
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

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#3 Post by jindydiver » Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:52 pm

Interesting post Dennis. I don't have anything much to say about the content because I have not held a prejudice either way, I don't care what other people do as long as it is legal and I don't participate in club activities.
What I find interesting is the way people are very quick to point the finger at "those crossbows" rather than "those arseholes" when we see something like this on the TV or in the news. Fine particulars like the tool used to cause cruelty to the animal wash right over those who hate all hunters, they use these incidences to attack ALL hunters and don't care to hear trite arguments about the tools used. We need to point out to people that regardless of the tool used the ACT is illegal and not taken lightly by the whole archery community, as our feelings on cruelty and illegal behavior mirror the wider communities feelings.
Mick


Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.

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Coach

#4 Post by Coach » Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:25 pm

We, in mainstream archery/bowhunting are the responsible parties too much of the vandalism involving crossbows in this community because of our continuing refusal to allow these people to shoot at our venues under common rules of safety and social responsibility. It is we who turn these people into archery pariahs, and when they go out and shoot wherever they want and at whatever they want, we suffer the consequences because the general public and our lawmakers most certainly do regard crossbows as part of archery whether we like it or not. And, they act accordingly.
This bothers me a little ,, how is it our fault ? Just because we dont want to recognise them as archers etc ,, we are to blame ? I dont think so :roll:
Have you ever thought why the crossbow was made a controlled weapon ? It was because of idiots doing the WRONG thing with them . And why did they do the wrong thing them ,, 'cause it is easier with a crossbow than a "normal" bow .
You say
I have heard the argument that crossbows are easier to shoot than a conventional bow. That is a nonsensical red herring.
What a load of Cods wallop ! Of course it is easier with todays crossbows ,, it is like shooting a rifle ,, just not as far . These things have triggers , a stock exactly the same as rifle ,, scopes etc . It is far easier to hit what you want with a crossbow than it is with a normal bow , you don't need to execute good form etc . You dont need to learn to what we do ,, thats why they became the weapon of choice of idiots ,, they lacked the discipline to learn , so they took the easy way . Besides that ,,,, Crossbows are looked upon as being "cool" and tough etc by some of the idiots that do what they do .
Getting back to the blame laid on us by you ,, would it be fair to say that rapists , harsh yeah ,, could blame the person they raped because they couldnt get what they wanted ? They know it's against the law , yet they go and do it anyway and with the reasoning you just gave us , IE its our fault they do what they do because we didnt let them join our club ,, it would be fair for them to use that reasoning ?
Sorry Dennis ,, but it just doesnt wash with me ,you saying that its our fault that they couldnt do it legally , so they do it illegally :shock: A bit like saying ,, "they wont let me join in on that hunt,, so I'll do it anyway " IE ,poaching .
MMM ,, maybe another thread might be a good idea :wink:

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#5 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:46 am

Hullo Coach,

I thought you would reply. You have quoted me in your opening where I explained the reason I consider mainstream archery bears at least part of the responsibility and blame, then you ask the question of how???? Read the quote again please?

Your next paragraph goes straight to the point of the matter - that they have becomed controlled weapons because people misused them, NOT because they exist. Certainly there are quite a lot of people out there who use them as responsibly as we use conventional bows, but you seem content to put them in the same basket as the misusers. It is the same old argument mounted by the anti-gun lobby. Becase of the few, all are equally to blame.

So far as ease of shooting is concerned, I took the trouble to obtain one for myself and try it. I can say quite categorically that it is far easier for me to shoot my conventional bows than the crossbow. That is from practical use - not opinion.

As I pointed out in my post, anyone can buy a low draw weight bow and misuse it also. You seem to be saying that this is not true, but I don't know on what basis you have this opinion. Your post mounts all the tired old arguments about them being like rifles (which they most certainly are not), they have stocks like rifles (which was borrowed by early hand gonnes from the crossbow as an aid to aiming - not vice versa) and that they can be shot more accurately????? How is this last a problem????

The comment about good form not being necessary to crossbow shooting is very challengable, Coach. The method of aiming is similar to rifle or shotgun shooting, both of which require a high degree of good form to shoot well. As a firearm owner/shooter of nearly 40 years I have some knowledge of this from a practical standpoint.

So far as crossbows being illegal, they are not. They are a regulated or controlled weapon requiring a licence. This was done to try to minimise the problem of misuse hopefully leaving the serious crossbowmen access. Are you lumping these latter into the vandal/poacher category also? But making them a licensable weapon doesn't get around the problem of getting proper training. You need a venue to obtain that.

In the end, it still gets back to the same old same old. What is it about crossbows themselves which so many people find objectionable. No-one, including you, Coach has answered that question other than your act-of-faith argument that you don't like them because you don't like them which is fine as a personal preference. But to extrapolate from that position to ostracization of these people and their bows is a leap of archery prejudice which is not tenable logically.

Your argument re rapists bears little on this argument. To use your logic, to its conclusion would mean that because some bloke rapes a woman, all men should be castrated whether they committed acts of rape or not because the instrument of rape was to blame.

Your reply really gets no further than a prejudicial point of view which you have not substantiated in your post. If you don't want crossbows in your club, the applicant is entitled to ask why. Your argument justifies that position purely on the basis of "because we don't like them" without any logical explanation of why you don't.

Not that many years ago, one could go into the countryside and see all manner of damage done to public and private property by firearm misuse. That misuse has diminished enormously since our legislators often in consultation with firearms groups (at least here in Victoria they did) proposed and made it compulsory to undergo a safety training and legal course prior to getting a shooter licence. These were originally run at the club level and open to the general shooting public. The firearms community knows this very well. I worked for them officially for many many years and know it is true. And, it worked because the shooting organizations accepted the responsibility for this kind of training and did something about it. They could have walked away from the issue by saying that it was not OUR MEMBERS who are doing it. But they did not.

I am saying that a similar outcome would result in regard to crossbow misuse if we in mainstream archery took them in and trained them to the same level of social responsibility we do for other archers.

In respect of your 'macho' argument, I recall not so very long ago that both federal and state governments were considering the prohibition of compound bows for much the same reasons applicable to crossbow misuse. I also remember the non-favour that Sylvester Stallone's Rambo did for them and which heavily influenced public opinion about them at the time. They were not banned because mainstream archery was able to influence govenment that it was willing to accept some responsibility for their misuse and provide appropriate training - which we were already doing anyway. We did so because the alternative was unthinkable.

That is the level of responsibility we owe to crossbowmen as a community. I am saying that if we turn away from it, and misuse continues, it won't be just them that suffers. It is all part of wedge politics and we are putting in the wedge. It is so easy to turn away from that which we doesn't affect us until it comes back to haunt us - the Bonhoeffer syndrome if you like.

You have also missed my point in regard to the instances where conventional bows have been used in vandalism. The have occurred and been published in the media. What is the difference between the two kinds of vandalism do you think? Surely they warrant the same kind of disdain or do you consider them qualitatively different, Coach?

And yes, this topic should be split.

Dennis La Varenne
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

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#6 Post by perry » Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:01 am

I am a licenced crossbow owner , I make and hunt with my own cross bows , and can assure you the licencing system in Queensland is exactly the same as for firearms of which I also am licenced own and hunt with . On top of that I make my own self and laminated bows -I love my archery and am very often discriminated against by mainstream archery because of how I go about my archery , inside the law of the land and the regulations of the governing bodies just with differant equipment , even branded because I hunt with it from time to time .

Never thought there would be a kind word and considered opinion expressed for the evil cross bow , thankyou Dennis . The problem stems back centuries when in 1139 papel edict declared that use of the crossbow was forbidden EXCEPT against the infidel , was hatefull to god and crossbowmen where considered heretic and if captured , tortured horribly and executed .

Thus with a religous declaration as a weapon of the devil , poacher and the assasinn common sense went out the window , just as people being responsible for there own actions has gone out the window , why modern society blames a tool or inanimate objects for the actions of fools or criminals is beyond me . regards Perry
"To my deep morticication my father once said to me, 'You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family.' "

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#7 Post by GrahameA » Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:46 am

Topic Split
Grahame.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.

"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.

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#8 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:57 pm

Perry,
I have a legally owned crossbow now, but I cannot see myself becoming a dedicated user really. What I can't stand is the unreasonable and unreasoned prejudice. As much as anything, that is what I am taking issue with.

I must declare an error in my last post. I used an invented term - Bonhoeffer syndrome. I should have used the term - Niemöller syndrome after his telling poem "First they came . . ." which resonated with me on this matter. It goes (in English) -

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for me, there was no one left to speak out.

The reason it resonated was because we in mainstream archery are just as prepared to walk away from those of a different archery discipline with the same inevitable consequences.

We never justify illegal or socially destructive behaviour, but are quite prepared to sacrifice others' interests when we have no stake in them.

BACKGROUND
Martin Niemöller was a prominent anti-Nazi christian theologian in the Lutheran tradition. Bonhoeffer was one of his associates and was hanged by the Nazis after a long stint in a concentration camp for his anti-Nazi activities.

Dennis La Varenne
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

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gundy
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#9 Post by gundy » Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:25 pm

Interesting comments, thanks...I may have been misunderstood however, and in reading my post, it probably came across that I 'dislike' crossbow shooters, but that was not to be the case.

I simply wish that when a bolt is a bolt, it is refered to as such, when arrow an arrow, same etc and so on.

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#10 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:49 pm

Dennis said:
We, in mainstream archery/bowhunting are the responsible parties too much of the vandalism involving crossbows in this community because of our continuing refusal to allow these people to shoot at our venues under common rules of safety and social responsibility. It is we who turn these people into archery pariahs, and when they go out and shoot wherever they want and at whatever they want, we suffer the consequences because the general public and our lawmakers most certainly do regard crossbows as part of archery whether we like it or not. And, they act accordingly.
That is ridiculous IMO!!!

Your holding of law abiding archers and bowhunters as being responsible for the illegal acts of some idiots and criminals using crossbows is incomprehensible IMO.

Individuals are responsible for their own actions – period!

Archers and bowhunters aren’t responsible for the illegal acts of idiots and criminals using bows and arrows or any other weapon. Crossbowmen aren’t responsible for the wrong doings of some who use crossbows illegally. In the same way gun owners aren’t responsible for those who break the law by illegally using a firearm.

Those who break the law do so because they make a choice to do so or are mentally ill, not because of the actions or lack of, by any club or owners of bows, guns, knives etc etc.
I suggest that the relatively small amount of vandalism involving conventional archery equipment is the result of our making our clubs open to those who want to learn to shoot them properly and responsibly. This is not provable of course, but our attitude to crossbowmen reflects little more than an unreasonable and unjustifiable prejudice. I have not heard a single decent reason why they should be pariahed in this way.

First we turn them away, then they commit an act of vandalism, and then we use that vandalism as the reason for refusing to allow them to join us. We create the feedback loop which creates the problem. The social problems surrounding misuse of crossbows are no different to those which would exist with conventional bows if there were nowhere to safely and responsibly shoot them.
Again I can not agree. All my life I have known of any amount of firearm clubs open to membership by the public and catering to the needs of each type of firearm but firearm offences have and are continuing to happen. Why, because some people choose to do the wrong thing.

Why try and lay the blame on bowhunting and archery clubs for a lack of places for Crossbowmen to shoot? Are they incapable of gathering together like minded people and starting a club and making a range etc?

Over the years I have been involved in starting new clubs and some clubs that catered specifically to the interests of a minority group. It was just a matter of putting in the effort to do so. I don’t see why Crossbowmen should be considered any different in this regard – they can easily do the same.

As an aside, in more recent times, crossbows have been classed differently than a conventional bow and arrow by authorities. Although it varies from state to state crossbows mostly require special licences and accompanying usage requirements. In Queensland I believe a crossbow club requires a special classified range similar to a firearms range. A normal archery club range or field course doesn’t comply as far as I know.
I have heard the argument that crossbows are easier to shoot than a conventional bow. That is a nonsensical red herring. Anybody can go to an archery dealer and buy a light draw weight bow and shoot it over the back fence and skewer livestock with no trouble at all. They are no different it crossbows in this matter.
I think it can be argued that the crossbow is easier to shoot than a conventional bow. Yes, for pin point accuracy I am sure it takes a considerable amount of effort to set one up, and considerable shooting skill – the same as for shooting a bow and arrow and a firearm accurately.

However IMO they are much easier for a person who has no experience to pick one up and shoot with reasonable accuracy than it would be for that same person to pick up a conventional bow and do the same. I have shot a crossbow by the way.

There is no need for the special muscle training in order to draw and hold it like a conventional bow requires. The crossbow can be cocked and easily held reasonably steady. I think this is the very reason that the crossbow has been used more often for illegal activities than conventional bows. I also think its ease of use is one of the main reasons that crossbows now have to be licensed.
I would like someone to advance an argument demonstrating reasons why crossbows should not be part of mainstream archery which are not acts-of-faith type argument.
As much as I respect your arguments for, I don’t think crossbows should be a part of mainstream archery or bowhunting. Can I give a reasonable argument to back this up, perhaps not but it is how I honestly feel.

To me a crossbow is not a bow and arrow and certainly not a firearm – just something different that uses a projectile similar to an arrow.

IMO if I told someone that I shot a bow and arrow then they would automatically think that I shot what you term a conventional bow and arrow. I think this is how archery and bowhunting has always been thought of.

The shooting of a bow and arrow involves so much more than does the shooting of a crossbow. The archer has a much bigger role to play when using a conventional bow and arrow. This can include but is not limited to the following.

The building up and maintaining of special muscles in order to draw and hold the bow at full draw.
Holding a bow steady as it is stretched out in front of the archer.
Having to maintain, as close as is possible, a constant draw length.
Ensuring you don’t torque the bow in your hand.
Counter act the effects of the misalignment of the bow and drawing hands when drawing the bow.
If shooting with fingers, maintaining a clean release.
Follow through is important also.

Setting up equipment for a conventional bow would have more variables such as nock alignment and fit. Arrow spine is a big issue as you have many different draw weights and draw lengths and shooting styles.

Then there is the ‘looks’ for want of a better word. Archery to me is the vision of an archer drawing a conventional bow back to full draw, releasing the arrow and watching it arch through the air before hitting the target. To me, that whole experience is missing with the shooting of a crossbow.

The modern hunting crossbows I have seen have scopes and laser dot sighting devices, specially constructed stocks etc and are nearly pin point accurate out to ranges that far exceed what I consider ethical bowhunting ranges. To me, that just isn’t bowhunting in any way shape or form.

A comment now which isn’t part of my personal views above but does pertain to this issue regarding the shooting of crossbows at clubs. As I mentioned previously, I think any club (in Queensland at least) who wishes to allow the shooting of crossbows will have the added burden of having to meet strict laws which apply under the Weapons Act which they do not have when conventional bows and arrows are used. I don’t think it is a burden that many main stream archery clubs would want.

Having said all of the above, I am in no way against crossbows or those who shoot them. I simply have no interest in them myself in much the same way as firearms don’t really interest me but I do have a firearms licence.

I also don’t class hunting with a crossbow as ‘Bowhunting’ but as ‘Crossbow Hunting’ and therein lie’s a huge difference IMO. I am not against those who hunt with crossbows, I just personally don’t class it as ‘Bowhunting’.

Jindy said:
We need to point out to people that regardless of the tool used the ACT is illegal and not taken lightly by the whole archery community, as our feelings on cruelty and illegal behavior mirror the wider communities feelings.
Absolutely!!!

Gundy said:
I simply wish that when a bolt is a bolt, it is refered to as such, when arrow an arrow, same etc and so on.
I agree with you.

Jeff

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perry
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#11 Post by perry » Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:18 pm

In the past I have been a member of a club that permitted crossbows provided that they where consistant with the Fita crossbow regulation , now they do not permit crossbows because there grounds are incapable of meeting the ill considered regulations . Apparantly a fita style recurved target crossbow is capable of sending a target bolt further than the compound archer with his 225 grain carbon arrow and 60 # solocam bow [ Yes they shoot fita with heavier draw weight bows ] . So with no archery organizations that allow crossbows , no accredited ranges and not knowing anyone that has in excess of 20 acres of zoned rural land with undulating hills within 5 hours of home I can only shoot legally out west on rare hunting trips family permitting .

To carry out any repair work on my self made crossbows I have to get an armourers licence , if I get my armourers licence I need to convert my garage into an armoury to legally carry out that maintenance at home . Councils will not lease land to a budding club on a stand alone basis due to the regulations and the expense of meeting these reulations rules it out on a personal or club level , maybe a firearms club may share but would certainly want the range accreditation met by the budding crossbow club - fair enough too , but who want a 7mm remington magnun blasting 50 yards away when your in the peacefull persuit of shooting a crossbow or hand held bow anyway .

It is not a simple matter to simply start a crossbow club as earlier eluded too .Centuries of discrimination and eliteism by mainstream archery , the recent licencing and regulation has basically destroyed the limited opportunities for crossbow enthusiests to develop a foundation that there hand held brothers have . Until mainstream archers accept the crossbow 's rightfull place beside them in archery history it will remain so . Like it or not compound ,recurve , longbow , selfbow , carbon , wood or alloy arrows and crossbows or mechanical release aids its all archery . regards Perry
"To my deep morticication my father once said to me, 'You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family.' "

- Charles Darwin

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#12 Post by Len » Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:36 pm

Perry and Dennis, would you call using a ballistae/springbold/scorpion archery? By your reasoning anything that involves some sort of bow is archery.
Hmmmmmmm.............

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#13 Post by buzz » Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:23 pm

I agree it could be fair to make the observation that archery clubs and the rules and restrictions of sanctioning bodies could be considered contributory factors in the misuse of crossbow but I'd not go so far as to say they are causal.

As mentioned, it is still the act of animal abuse that is the issue, not neccesarily the method used. The method is simply appealing to the media if it is something that creates a useful image. A kangaroo that is traumatised from being chased by dogs is only of interest to tv or a newspaper front page if there is a picture opportunity in it. It is beyond arguing that media portrayal for the sake of illustrating something might have a negative effect on our sport of archery.

I don't see that there is much point in arguing that bowhunters or club archers didn't cause the injuries because it appears that in most cases it seems that they are caused by people "playing", fiddling, experimenting or misusing equipment - both bows or crossbows. Perhaps if the people who found the equipment in their hands had ready access to suitable venues for using it appropriately they might not have mis-used it. Or alternatively, you could take the legislative approach and ban the gear outright: this is a risk we face in archery.

I agree it is a fair observation that in principle crossbows and bows are essentially the same. I'm not sure that these days a modern crossbow would be as easy for a stranger to pick up and use as it might have been in years gone by. Shouldering a crossbow is somewhat instinctive for someone who has familiarity with longarms, but with the dramatically reduced gun ownership rates this would be less common into the future. However, I don't think that accurate or effective use of either projectile weapon is the key issue, but rather the misuse is the problem. I would contend that is would be equally easy to misuse either a crossbow or any form of bow. Indeed.... with the relatively higher draw weights found on most crossbows it may even be that it could be easier to misuse (for example, nock and arrow, draw it back to some extent and release) a bow.

I think GrahameA's signature block is something to keep in mind: Simplistic answers do not solve complex problems.
...because they do appeal to our governments.

(took several attempts at posting this... kept failing)
sssshhhh.... they are watching

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#14 Post by perry » Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:52 pm

Len wrote:Perry and Dennis, would you call using a ballistae/springbold/scorpion archery? By your reasoning anything that involves some sort of bow is archery.
Under the new crossbow regulations in Queensland guess what is the restricted part on the crossbow , it is not the Prod [short bow?] as reasonably it could be expected that an individual [very strong] could draw the prod and shoot it by hand .

Its not the bolt because its simply a short arrow .

It is not the trigger mechanism as once again there are examples that are in mainstream archery of handheld trigger mechanisms .

It's the Stock ! this is what has been identified by law as what defines a crossbow and must be stamped with a serial number and be registered.


Isn't it reasonable then too simply call a crossbow a short bow on a stick .

What would you call the set bows used by eskimo's over baits , a legitimate modification of a hand held bow to increase there chances of survival or a device with no relation to an archery bow .

As for Ballista'a have you studied the mechanism and then compared its mechanism to a modern Oneida Eagle which differs [other than a crank is used to draw the limbs] in that it uses cams and cables to power the limbs instead of twisted hair and sinew , the first compound device too shoot projectiles perhaps ? certainly a device that shoots very big arrows in an arched trajectory .

What about a foot bow used in flight archery , some of them have 4 limbs and three strings without being a compound [ie powered by cams ]and are so heavy in draw weight can only be drawn laying on your back with a brace . Some composite flight bows have a 18 inch overdraw shooting 10 inch long arrows that could reasonably be described as crossbow bolts by the novice - I'm sure you would call these these examples of archery equipment .

What about a stone bow - very popular with the gentry a few hundred years ago , shot stones or clay pellets , mostly crossbow type arrangement in europe but to this day some cultures in asia use handheld stone bows . Are these archery bows ?

This chat could go on in circles forever , my last word . Regards Perry
"To my deep morticication my father once said to me, 'You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family.' "

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#15 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:40 am

To all,

Here are some pics of the trad crossbow I used to make my assessments of its capabilities. As you can see, it is VERY basic compared to the usual modern hi-tech crossbow.

Astonishingly, it can be shot instinctively. It nearly knocked me out of my socks when I realised how I was shooting it.

After I struggled with spanning it (it is a bit heavy for me), I laid the bolt in the track and between the ears of the nut and just raised it and shot it where I was looking just like my longbow. The 'anchor' in this case was the end tip of the tiller which touched my cheekbone just before I loosed by squeezing the tickler bar.

I kept shooting it for about 15 shots into my group 3 black pig the same way to make sure of my shooting technique, and I was not aiming it at all in the usual sense. Just look and shoot. Amazing.

It isn't finished at all. I just assembled the kit to get it working so I could find out something about them for myself.

The pics are pretty grainy because I stuffed the settings in my camera which Jeff took a lot of trouble setting up for me. Oh, well. I will just have to read the rotten manual I suppose.

Len,
Ballistae are to archery what cannons are to firearms.

Gundy,
Nobody thinks you have anything against crossbows. It was me who took up the issue because your comment provoked in me something I had been chewing over for years. That's all.

Dennis La Varenne
Attachments
This is a close-up of the sear bar and the nut.
This is a close-up of the sear bar and the nut.
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This is a view from the archer's perspective.
This is a view from the archer's perspective.
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A view from the right side.
A view from the right side.
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Another view - from the left side.
Another view - from the left side.
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Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

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What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

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#16 Post by wysper » Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:03 am

I havent read the topic this split from, but I have enjoyed reading this one.

It is interseting the cliques (sp?) in archery. I am relatively new.
I shoot compound and am looking to get a long bow.

In NZ at my club, there is good natured banter between the compounders, recurvers and crossbow shooters. I consider us all archers and enjoy the differences that each discipline brings to our sport.

I probably wouldn't shoot crossbow because it doesn't really interest me, but I am interested to know more about it because it is part of our sport.

After reading this I am glad I am shooting in NZ where we can shoot side by side with each other, enjoy each others company and have fun. (at least at my club)

It seems to me there will always be idiots causing problems, doesnt mean you should blame the tool they do the damage with does it?
Cars, guns, knives, hammers, swords, bows, words etc.

I like kukri's, if someone attacks someone with a kukri, does that make all owners of kukris bad or dangerous? Nope, just someone made some bad choices and has just made things harder for me.

Cars probably kill more people in our two countries than most other "things", are all car drivers irrisponsible?

brings to mind the OLD adagae, guns don't kill people, people kill people.

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#17 Post by clinglish » Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:49 am

As usual the real evil is the media , and whatever bandwagon it is pushing .Just wait until a Muslim is photographed with a crossbow ,the media will splash that image up as often as they can.
We sit and argue the point as to a crossbows legitimicy as a mainstream form of archery,
Lets be realistic Archery isn't mainstream, it is an accepted hobby and most visualise target/fita style when it is discussed. Bowhunting is even further from the so called mainstream and I have had more than one occasion were I have had a stranger feel that it is their right to tell me what I do is wrong. As most obscure pastimes surrounding outdoor type activity such as archery / shooting the best way for the anti's to remove us is to leave us alone , we will eventually cause our own demise by allowing sections of our sport to be segmented off as "Not really archery". So keep up the good work.
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#18 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:25 pm

Wysper,

The original part of the thread is the one above this on the index about a man in Adelaide being murdered by a the use of a compound bow as it turned out.

Dennis La Varenne
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Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

wysper
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#19 Post by wysper » Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:34 pm

ahh. that is sad.
It will probably cause similar waves as did the sword attack here a while back at an RSA.

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#20 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:00 pm

Wysper,

I made a blue in my last post above. I should have said it was split from the thread called - "Bad press for bowhunting - I hope not".

Dennis La Varenne
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

Coach

#21 Post by Coach » Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:10 pm

We sit and argue the point as to a crossbows legitimicy as a mainstream form of archery,

I dont think that is the argument here ,, it is a form of archery , no doubt about it . It just seems there are more idiots out there doing the wrong thing with a crossbow :roll:

Dennis , you say this
So far as ease of shooting is concerned, I took the trouble to obtain one for myself and try it. I can say quite categorically that it is far easier for me to shoot my conventional bows than the crossbow.
Then you say this
I kept shooting it for about 15 shots into my group 3 black pig the same way to make sure of my shooting technique, and I was not aiming it at all in the usual sense. Just look and shoot. Amazing.
To me your statement says that it is easy to shoot :roll: So what is it ,, is it easy or not :?: You seem to be contradicting yourself :wink:

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#22 Post by dawallace45 » Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:09 pm

I've been a keen archer for over 30 years and while I prefer a Longbow or recurve I also shoot Compound and up to 3 years ago I used to shoot Crossbows as well , I also used to be a keen pistol shooter and still am a keen rifle shooter , I no longer shoot cross bows because my back is stuffed and I can no longer pull back the prod on the crossbow with out putting my back out , from my experience the crossbow is responsible for getting a lot of people into archery , so many people try a crossbow and find them too hard to pull back and go for a light bow instead , I've had mainly crossbows from 125# to 150# and a lot of people have trouble with that weight , the guy I sold my last crossbow to had a lot of trouble pulling it back and it took him over a month before he could do it with out a deal of trouble , he also had trouble with the very heavy trigger of the crossbow compared to his rifles and it was some time before he could hit the broad side of a barn , I've had crossbows with red dot sights , peep sights , telescopic sights and medieval style crossbows with out any sights and have to say my favourite style was the medieval style , with my bows I generally don't take a shot past 20 metres although I have taken game out to 40 metres in the past , with a cross bow I don't feel comfortable shooting past 30 metres but even with a rifle most of the game I've taken over the last 10 years have been under 50 metres any way and much of that has been under 20 metres , I started off hunting with a bow and old habits die hard , actually the only time I ever took long shots was when I was shooting roos professionally and of course that was for dollars not for the sport , I've never understood the problem some archers have with crossbows or the problem some archers have with firearms , from my experience the anti's don't like any of us and would prefer to split us up and take us on one at a time , not that they need to we seem to be able to screw our selves quite well with out their help , I have to disagree with Dennis on one point and that is

Not that many years ago, one could go into the countryside and see all manner of damage done to public and private property by firearm misuse. That misuse has diminished enormously since our legislators often in consultation with firearms groups (at least here in Victoria they did) proposed and made it compulsory to undergo a safety training and legal course prior to getting a shooter licence

I Personally think it had more to do with the shooting mags and clubs coming down hard on the people who did this sort of thing , they made it clear that these people weren't shooters or hunters they were vandals pure and simple

And as far as the Crossbow being as easy to use as a firearm , well having been a firearm instructor and range officer for quite a number of years I'm no longer surprised by the number of people who can't even hit a 2' x 3' target at 25 metres with a rifle , being one of those people who took to bows and firearms straight off I always thought you would have to be severely handicapped to miss but it just isn't so , most people who tried my crossbows would miss the 4' x 4' back stop from 20 metres let alone the target , strangely enough most of those same people could at least hit some where on the target with one of my self bows at the same range but wouldn't even hit the back stop with my compound with sights , one extremely uncoordinated mate of mine actually managed to put a arrow through my shed which was 20 metres off to the left of my target butt , but he's so bad that he actually runs a risk of being the first person to shoot them selves with a bow

About 12 years ago where I used to live there was several instances of misuse of both bows and crossbows , there were three instances where I was actually shown the arrows used where some dropkick used a bow or crossbow to shoot a cat that had been in their garden , but they stuffed up badly as all they succeeded in doing was nailing a very much still alive and in severe pain pet moggy to a tree or electric pole on the footpath , the local police knew I was a keen archer [ I used to shoot pistol with a couple of the local cops ] and got me to try and identify the arrows as to whether they come from a crossbow or ordinary bow , one was a 22" crossbow bolt with field point , another was a cheap crappy arrow like from a cheap beginner bow set , and another a expensive high end target arrow , there were several other instances of misuse that I was told about by my mates in the Police but luckily most of the incidences of misuse were kept from the media by them , they reckoned we just didn't need the bad press , of the ones that were reported they all blamed crossbows even though it obviously wasn't a crossbow bolt in the animals , lets face it the whole street getting woken up at first light by the screaming of a wounded cat nailed to a electric post by some brain dead dick head is publicity we just don't need

David

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#23 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:30 am

Coach,

No contradiction at all. I shot it about 15 times in the time I could shoot easily 40 or 50 shots from my longbows and I was more tired after those 15 shots than I would have been with my longbows.

As a matter of fact, I was really expecting it to be much easier to span and shoot than it turned out to be. A bit of a disappointment really. I was hoping that it might be useful for my old age if I couldn't draw a longbow anymore, but that most certainly won't be the case. A conventional bow beats them hands down for general use in bowhunting.

They are a bugger to span and it takes a while to do and a lot more effort to do it at the heavier hunting weights. Mine is rated 125lbs at 14 inches by the manufacturer. I can't test it because my scale doesn't go that far.

If you know anything about blackpowder muzzleloading rifles, it takes about as long to 'load' as one of these without the use of cartridges or speed loaders - perhaps slightly quicker.

You most certainly would NOT want to be facing an angry pig if you missed your first shot, I can tell you.

Their one great advantage that I can see is that they would be an excellent ambush weapon on game if you can make your first (and only???) shot count. They are also quite noisy which was another surprise I did not need - almost like a low powered air rifle - which would diminish their ambush efficacy to some degree, and they most certainly aren't for damaged backs. I'm blowed if I can work out how Ted Mitchell shoots his. He has considerable damage to his upper spine.

I suppose those that shoot them do so because they like them for what they are and are prepared to put up with the shortcomings which I consider to be significant. I cannot see myself becoming an afficianado.

My beef really is about the prejudice against them by mainstream archery as well as out unwillingness to try to obviate the fairly rare instances of abuse by opening up our facilities to them where they can practise in a supervised environment instead of giving in to the temptations to have a go at the local seagulls or neighbour's cats.

Anyway Coach, if you get the opportunity to shoot one, see what you think. I will continue to have a play with mine from time to time


Dennis La Varenne
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

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#24 Post by yeoman » Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:32 am

Dennis, do you use a cocking lever or goatsfoot lever or any such device? If not, it could completely turn it around for you.

My dad, when he was young, made crossbows to hunt deer with in New Zealand. He did this coz his dad wouldn't let him have a gun. He passed away about 15yrs ago, but it was me that ended up with all his blueprints and notes on manufacture. I'd love to make them, but I can't justify the $300 for the license plus all the security I'd have to implement to the missus!

Maybe one day I will though.

Dave
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#25 Post by clinglish » Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:36 pm

post me the plans mate we can have them in WA (can't have a paintball gun without a licence though) :?
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#26 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Sat Jul 28, 2007 1:53 am

Dave,

No, I don't have anything to span it with at all. All hand drawn effort so far.

I know about the use of a cranequin for the infantry crossbows and later using a windlass. I think I read in 'The Great Warbow' that paired belt hooks were used very early. These methods seem not much quicker than spanning it by hand (but, I hope I am wrong) and look quite clumsy.

The term goatsfoot rings a bell from somewhere, but I don't really know what it looks like.

Dennis
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

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#27 Post by humphrey » Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:44 pm

i am a former RESPONSIBLE crossbow hunter, and now solely a trad man. i gave it away about 2 years ago for no other reason than i prefer shooting and hunting with trad bows. i find it more challenging and love the traditional side of it, like making up arrows, cresting etc. 8) ive hunted with compounds, crossbows, and recurve bows over the past 6 years and can say from first hand experience that a crossbow is no easier or more accurate to shoot than a compound, unless shooting off a bench rest.

i have a top of the line crossbow im trying to sell sitting in the cupboard with a telescopic site and trajectory compensator, and my groups with it are no better than when i occasionally shoot a mates compound. they make a lot of noise, vibrate, are about 4 times heavier than a compound, have a heavy trigger, and have noticeable kick. the folk that make the allegations "they are just like a rifle" and other crap have probably never even shot or handled a crossbow. :roll: it seems the ones that have the biggest problems with crossbows shoot what are basically vertical versions of them with let-off, sights, release aids (triggers), stabilisers, wrist slings and any other type of device to make it easier to shoot.

I have no problem with any type of archer, whether trad, compound or crossbow. if a device draws a string back and fires an arrow, no matter how its done, i believe it is considered archery. theres no point in everyone arguing over how much more of a true archer they consider themselves over somebody else and other macho crap. what would be next? jimmy citizen saying "im more of a 'true archer' than joe bloggs because i shoot woods and he shoots carbons out of his longbow"?
If its all done legally and as ethically as possible i really cant see what the big deal is. People really need to stop paying out on crossbows, its becoming old and tiring. If they dont like them, dont shoot them, dont even look at them if they are that offensive, but stop giving people that shoot them a hard time. :evil:

And gundy, both 'bolt' and 'arrow' are considered correct terms. they got the term 'bolt' from the short, heavy, unfletched, solid metal missile they used to fire from the medieval days. these days, some manufacturers refer to the modern fletched projectile fired as a bolt, others an arrow. 8)

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#28 Post by yeoman » Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:53 am

Dennis, I'll draw a plan of a goatsfoot lever. It's hard to explainerise with words.

It isn't necessarily quicker, but the mechanical advantage means it's a whole lot easier on the back.

I may digitise my dad's plans, but not too soon, as I'm pretty busy lately.

Dave
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#29 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:49 pm

Dave,

Thank you for any assistance with spanning my crossbow. Shooting one fast is a bit of an over-expectation unless one re-builds one of the Chinese repeating crossbows.

Anyhow, Dave . . . whenever you get the time.

Dennis La Varenne
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

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#30 Post by Mick Smith » Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:00 pm

Dennis

I don't know much about crossbows, but I did remember seeing this cocking aid advertised in my Cabelas catalog. It may or may not work for you.

Here's the link ...

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templ ... hasJS=true

Mick
There is no use focusing on aiming if you don't execute the shot well enough to hit what your are aiming at.

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