Net /Phone Transactions

[Axe]

Re net or phone transactions, could someone please explain to me the reason for money to be received before goods sent, why not goods before money or at least once deal is made both do their bit?

The buyer is expected to take all the risks, ie firstly will the goods come, are they as described? Should both not take the risk or show some trust?

Is the person sending the money any less honest than the person selling the goods or is the loss of the buyers money any less important than the loss of the sellers goods? I think not!

I can understand if someone is placing a special order & a deposit is requested to cater for a sudden change of mind by the buyer, but I believe that is a totally different matter.

When one shops, money and goods are exchanged at the same time, admittedly both money and goods are generally sighted there and then, but when both money & goods are unsighted, why is the initial proof of honesty placed on the buyer?

I for one have sold & bought goods on Ebay etc, once contact has been made I send the money or goods whichever applies, without placing any restrictions / conditions on the other party, thereby showing my faith/trust…does this mean I am a fool when I’m the vendor in these transactions??

Very interested to hear your opinions

[jape]

A lot of this is just what has become convention in the modern world of greed, competition and the lie that is called 'market economy'. Few even consider what you talk of anymore, integrity and honesty are not considered values, more as weaknesses.

It has become supply and demand and when you purchase from someone online or in a similar way, you are asking of them, therefore in the subservient or supplicant position. Thus you prove yourself.

I tend to find a supplier I trust by asking questions, sometimes even seeming meaningless ones just to see how they deal with me, playing the fool a little. This is because I believe in loyalty and will give my business to a decent soul even if they charge a little more.

Otherwise, well with plastic cards and credit a lot of it is simple convenience and many goods are cheaper and faster from abroad so I am serving myself and my own interests in this form of transaction. It is impersonal but you do have some cover if you use PayPal and Visa, it takes a while but you will be reimbursed for any losses over time. PayPal acts as a sort of agent, almost as if holding the money on your behalf - of course it is instantly paid over so you may be conned but they will usually cover such a loss because they check the vendor.

A small manufacturer or seller will often feel the loss of a sale by fraud more than a larger one, it might even be his profit margin for the day or week. Thus they also want money up front, or at least a deposit to cover materials and I understand that. So it is swings and roundabouts I think, convenience weighed against risk, not a matter of your honour or integrity. Keep that for face to face encounters!
jape

[Hood]

HUN

Re net or phone transactions, could someone please explain to me the reason for money to be received before goods sent, why not goods before money or at least once deal is made both do their bit?

But who's to say that one or the other doesn't do their bit!

Well as you full well know that on Ebay I'd have to say that the vast majority of people using Ebay expect payment before goods are shipped.
Do business with most companies over the net/phone and I can almost guarantee that they will expect part payment if not full payment before they either start to make or ship your goods.
I'm almost certain that there are people out there that even you would be un-easy about doing dealings with. So if you had an uneasy feeling about a transaction (you being the seller) I'm sure that you to would exercise your right to ask for payment up front before goods are sent!

The buyer is expected to take all the risks, ie firstly will the goods come, are they as described? Should both not take the risk or show some trust?

Thats just utter rot.

How about the fact that if the seller ships goods and the buyer says that they have sent payment, what happens if the transaction (bank)fails, cheque bounces, or money order gets lost in the mail or no action is taken buy the suposedly interested buyer.
I think it's fair to say that there is just as much risk for the seller as there is for the buyer.

Is the person sending the money any less honest than the person selling the goods or is the loss of the buyers money any less important than the loss of the sellers goods? I think not!

This I have to agree with you.

BUT.....what if the seller has had bad transactions or dealings in the past with prospective buyers and is just exercising their rights to be cautious/sceptical as to if the buyer will honour their commitment to the sale?
Not discarding the fact that this case can swing the other way as well to the buyers court.

I can understand if someone is placing a special order & a deposit is requested to cater for a sudden change of mind by the buyer, but I believe that is a totally different matter.

Special orders is a whole new ball game.

When one shops, money and goods are exchanged at the same time, admittedly both money and goods are generally sighted there and then, but when both money & goods are unsighted, why is the initial proof of honesty placed on the buyer?

Ok then your buy a car on/over the phone/net (yes it happens my brother has done it) as if their gonna ship a car before they recieve your FULL payment. I'd like to see you find a car yard that would ship a car based on part payment.
Ok more in line with the dealings on an archery site.
As if an archery shop is going to send out a bow (new/second hand doesn't matter) before they recieve full payment.

I for one have sold & bought goods on Ebay etc, once contact has been made I send the money or goods whichever applies, without placing any restrictions / conditions on the other party, thereby showing my faith/trust…does this mean I am a fool when I’m the vendor in these transactions??

Need I say anything!
Especially with all the dodgey users of Ebay around at any given time.

Very interested to hear your opinions

JMHO

I hope that was a sufficent opinion/contribution for you!

[gundy]

Hun, I have thought the same myself, but feel that this way of 'trading' is simply an adopted sequence or event that has occurred throughout time.

However I have completed numerous transactions with the same sellers and in time, they gain a trust and have started to send goods prior to payment recieved...

I just got a Selway quiver from a bloke in the states and he was happy to send it before payment was sent....not to my knowledge, it just turned up!

[jindydiver]

A mate of mine is restoring a car and buys a fair bit of stuff off EvilBay. He is also suspect about just sending people money up front and he asks the sellers to send the stuff by COD with Aus’ post. He pays when it shows up and the seller knows he gets his money or his gear back.

[woody]

A lot of this is just what has become convention in the modern world of greed, competition and the lie that is called 'market economy'. Few even consider what you talk of anymore, integrity and honesty are not considered values, more as weaknesses.

It has become supply and demand and when you purchase from someone online or in a similar way, you are asking of them, therefore in the subservient or supplicant position. Thus you prove yourself.

I tend to find a supplier I trust by asking questions, sometimes even seeming meaningless ones just to see how they deal with me, playing the fool a little. This is because I believe in loyalty and will give my business to a decent soul even if they charge a little more.

Otherwise, well with plastic cards and credit a lot of it is simple convenience and many goods are cheaper and faster from abroad so I am serving myself and my own interests in this form of transaction. It is impersonal but you do have some cover if you use PayPal and Visa, it takes a while but you will be reimbursed for any losses over time. PayPal acts as a sort of agent, almost as if holding the money on your behalf - of course it is instantly paid over so you may be conned but they will usually cover such a loss because they check the vendor.

A small manufacturer or seller will often feel the loss of a sale by fraud more than a larger one, it might even be his profit margin for the day or week. Thus they also want money up front, or at least a deposit to cover materials and I understand that. So it is swings and roundabouts I think, convenience weighed against risk, not a matter of your honour or integrity. Keep that for face to face encounters!
jape

If a buyer has a bad experience, he may be out of pocket a small amount, if a seller has enough bad experiences, he is out of pocket for thousands.

I ship broadheads first, but this is costing me a lot of money. I may have to rethink this policy, as is mostly the case in life, a few spoil the deal for the majority.

I have started a current accounts page on my web site, which I will update on a regular basis

http://users.ncable.net.au/~woody/current_accounts.htm

to give slow payers a memory jog, whether or not this will work, will determine if I can afford to keep trusting people to do the right thing, and pay on reciept of their orders.

[Axe]

Thankyou for the feed back & opinions, don't necessarily agree with all the points, but that was the idea of the question...opinions
I should add that to date I haven't had any bad experiences either as buyer or vendor, if it should occur then as Jindy mentioned, COD is the option.

Mick,
Opinions are what I asked for, but before you roll your eyes at me it might be wise for you to read some of your responses to my questions eg

Well as you full well know that on Ebay I'd have to say that the vast majority of people using Ebay expect payment before goods are shipped.
Do business with most companies over the net/phone and I can almost guarantee that they will expect part payment if not full payment before they either start to make or ship your goods.

That is why I asked the question

I also said money to be received, therefore your

Thats just utter rot

is out of line as once the money has been recieved only the buyer has any risk

hope that was a sufficent opinion/contribution for you!

Re your quote, I asked for opinions, not sarcasm, and it is only a thinly veiled attempt to continue or provoke an argument with me, one that has nothing to do with this topic or this site, therefore it is unwarranted and disrespectful

[Mick Smith]

Hun

I've bought lots of gear ranging from arrow components to new bows from Archery Mart in Adelaide. After the order has been placed over the phone, the goods have turned up in due course with a consignment note enclosed. I've always made the payment immediately afterwards.

I must say, I was pleasantly surprised by Archery Mart's show of trust. This show of good will ensured they received multiple follow-up orders from me. Their prices are pretty good too.

I don't know if they still do this or not. I haven't placed an order lately. Unfortunately I'd have to say they would probably have had their fingers burnt a few times, by now.

Mick

[Coach]

[
I have started a current accounts page on my web site, which I will update on a regular basis

http://users.ncable.net.au/~woody/current_accounts.htm

to give slow payers a memory jog, whether or not this will work, will determine if I can afford to keep trusting people to do the right thing, and pay on reciept of their orders.

Are you allowed to do this Woody ? I know people on that page. Is this like a "shame file " for all to see who are the bad risks ?

[Hood]

I also said money to be received, therefore your

Thats just utter rot

is out of line as once the money has been recieved only the buyer has any risk

Not so!
Ok say both seller and buy say they have sent of goods/payments
Who's to say that the money takes longer to arrive then the goods to be delivered.
If you have already recieved the goods before the seller has recieved the payment (based on the fact payment was suposedly sent in the first place) therefore the seller is the one at risk is he not.
Again this cenario can swing both ways.

hope that was a sufficent opinion/contribution for you!

Re your quote, I asked for opinions, not sarcasm, and it is only a thinly veiled attempt to continue or provoke an argument with me, one that has nothing to do with this topic or this site, therefore it is unwarranted and disrespectful

If you want to take it that way fine.

[jindydiver]

I think you are missing the point completely Mick.
When the seller has the buyers money in his hand before he ships the goods the risk for him is nil.

[Coach]

I think you may be misunderstanding here Mick .
What was said is basicly ,, The seller has already got the money before he sends off the goods ,, not that they sent the goods/payment at the same time . Therefore the seller is safe , he has the money ,,, but not the buyer ,,'cause he aint got the goods and they may or may not come, or they may come damaged or not as described .

I hope that clears it up

[Coach]

Just beat me Jindy

[Hood]

Ok then I see your points on that point.

I failed to seperate two points from the original post.

what I should have also included was part of the original post which is what I am basing part of my responses on which was..

why not goods before money or at least once deal is made both do their bit

But either way you can see it can be just as much a risk for one as it is the other.

Does the seller take the risk while you still have your cash........or do you part with your funds while the seller still has the goods?????

catch-22 I think

Also in the way that business (in general) is done on a day to day basis in this day and age. It is pretty much expected that payment is recieved before goods are shipped.
So do you stop buying over the net/phone.....probably not. You will just have to live with the fact that you will most likely have to part with your funds before you recieve your goods. If not then start searching for suppliers or people that you know that you can trust, or that ship before they recieve payment.

JMHO

[woody]

Jeff,
It is a reminder page for people who may have overlooked an account. Its not about bad risks. I forget bills too, but I dont get offended when people remind me.

It is about 1/8 of the accounts that are still current, and it's adding up to some real money.

Either I do something like this, or make people pay first, before shipping, or put up the price to cover outstanding accounts. My margin of profit does not give me a lot of room for mistakes.

This may appear a bit mercenary, but every cent I make from the Outbacks is going back into developing better equipment to make improvements. I depend on my day job to cover living expenses.

A typical day for me is 6 hours making broadheads, then off to the day job( arvo shift) Its just frustrating to wait for money which is needed for improvements to increase quality and output.

If I cant spend money on better machinery for mass production, I am never going to get out hunting

I work a day job as well as trying to catch up back orders on Outbacks, I dont have time to chase up people individually.

[GrahameA]

Good Morning Woody

I ship broadheads first, but this is costing me a lot of money. I may have to rethink this policy, as is mostly the case in life, a few spoil the deal for the majority.

I understand and am sympathetic with everything you say. 60, 90 and over accounts are crippling for small business or any business for that matter. And then there are the bad debts

[Coach]

I understand Woody ,, I would be peeved as well But I don't think it is legal ,, maybe I'm wrong . I didn't think you could publicly announce who owed you money . If the person had genuinely "forgot" to pay his account , he isnt about to look up your website to remind himself
Some people are just bad risks/unreliable unfortunately .

[Griffo]

I know I've been bitten by people who've bought TBGA stickers and never paid for them

I guess Coach is right:

some people are just bad risks/unreliable unfortunately

- either that or down right thieves

I don't need to list them, they know who they are...

[ole_silver]

i have purchased plenty via the ebay n quite a bit over this site.........

never yet have i been bitten, i do expect to pay before delivery, if i was a seller i could see the potential looses, as a buyer i remain with faith in my brotherhood of bowmen.........

i have been very lucky, n hate to see someone undone by roughs......

if you get the raw egg it must be widely advertised immediately, but be sure u follow it through properly to try and resolve before advertising...

don't be cut short with unfounded comments..

cheers to all my honest arrows slinging friends,
Steve..

[woody]

Jeff,
Its only a reminder page about accounts that are still current. I say on the page that I believe they have just been overlooked.

It may be a little embarrassing, but I'm not calling anyone any names. I would hope that if someone is looking at the web site and notices a mates name on it, that they could tactfully draw his attention to it, and ask him to give me a ring to talk about it.

[Sparra]

Most of the time I will send goods as soon as people tell me they want them and have always been paid....I have been burnt a couple of times as a buyer and once it took me 3 months to get a refund after only half of what I bought was sent..It only came after I shamed the high profile seller on the web site that I had bought the goods from and then with an abusive note as if I was in the wrong...
If I were you Woody I would put something on a few other web sites to
let people know about the list and I think you may start to get a response...
Sparra...

[Coach]

don't be cut short with unfounded comments..

Steve..

Yes , thats something one must be careful of