Bows and WW2

[Mick Smith]

I’m reading a book about some of the military battles of the twentieth century. It’s called “The Whites of Their Eye’s” by Roger Ford and Tim Ripley. It’s not a bad book. It deals with close quarters combat situations and the various aspects associated with it.

In the chapter, “Commandos and Special Forces” there’s a short reference about the use of bows and arrows in modern warfare. As most of us already know, the British Commandos were a highly trained and elite force. They were trained in the use of all manner of weapons, particularly “noiseless” ones.

Anders Lassen was Danish. He was also one of the high commanders of the Commandos.

I will quote directly from the book.



Knives were not the only weapons which interested Lassen as a means of silent killing; as his biographer, Mike Langley, notes:

“He was keener on the bow and arrow as a raiding weapon. Reviving the bow was not an idea gained from kids’ comics and adventures for boys. Lone archers had raided successfully in the Spanish Civil War – as Lassen may have heard from his father of from (Peter) Kemp (a fellow SSRF member) who had served at first in Spain with the Carlists, a royalist faction (sic) responsible for the bow’s reintroduction. Carlist raiders, all in black and armed with short black bows and arrows, infiltrated Republican trenches on night raids and killed sentries silently on challenge.”

Lassen put his case to the War Office: “I have considerable experience in hunting with bow and arrow. I have shot everything from sparrows to stags, and although I have never attempted to shoot a man yet it is my opinion that the result would turn out just as well as with stags.”

The War Office considered his claim that a trained archer could fire up to fifteen virtually soundless shots a minute, each capable of killing ‘without shock or pain’. The British War Office then arrived at a typical compromise by sending him two hunting bows with arrows – but not the permission to use them against the enemy. The bow and arrow in 1942 was classed as ‘an inhuman weapon’, a ruling which drew a scathing paragraph from Appleyard: ‘Such is the anomaly of modern warfare that the traditional weapon of Crecy and Agincourt should be prohibited while recourse is permitted to such horrors as rockets and atomic bombs.’



I found it interesting in a historical context.

Mick

[GrahameA]

Mick

Look up "Jack Churchill".

addenda
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Churchill

[Mick Smith]

Hi Grahame

Very interesting indeed. It sounds as though he was almost a nutter, one of my kind of people.

Mick

[Hood]

The yanks also use the bow and arrows in the Vietnam War to shoot flaming arrows from their patrol boats into the grass on the river banks to flush out the Vietnamese that were waiting in ambush to attack them.

[GrahameA]

Hi Mick

My understandinmg is that episode with him and the bow is the last "official" use of a bow in combat in the British Army.

[Brumbies Country]

Hi Mick

My understandinmg is that episode with him and the bow is the last "official" use of a bow in combat in the British Army.

I reckon the Jack Churchill storey is a classic. I've met a number of eccentric Englishmen who I can picture doing that sort of thumbing your nose thing with a fair bit of elan .

[Poppy]

Hi Guys
I remember a story about a British officer that was held up with a couple of his men in a two story barn in France I think it was to do with the Dunkirk evac, anyway the saw a group of Germans hiding behind a wall in a lane way. So they arranged to ambush them from the loft that they were in.
He the officer was to take the first shot with his Longbow and the others to follow with their guns. This was over in a short length of time, and as they inspected the bodies, the officer had mad a clean kill on one of the Germans.
They had to make a quick retreat as the enemy advanced .
Anyway no record of this was made by the German army, and you could imagine the look on their faces when they found the dead soldier with a arrow protruding from him.

Someone may be able to elaborate on this story.
I can't remember where I read it
Paul

[Brumbies Country]

Hi Guys
I remember a story about a British officer that was held up with a couple of his men in a two story barn in France I think it was to do with the Dunkirk evac, anyway the saw a group of Germans hiding behind a wall in a lane way. So they arranged to ambush them from the loft that they were in.
He the officer was to take the first shot with his Longbow and the others to follow with their guns. This was over in a short length of time, and as they inspected the bodies, the officer had mad a clean kill on one of the Germans.
They had to make a quick retreat as the enemy advanced .
Anyway no record of this was made by the German army, and you could imagine the look on their faces when they found the dead soldier with a arrow protruding from him.

Someone may be able to elaborate on this story.
I can't remember where I read it
Paul

That was Jack Churchill, and he reputedly used a 100lb yew bow and hunting arrows at a range of 40yards on the retreat to Dunkirk 1940. Slightly different hunting story

[GrahameA]

Mick. et al

When you have finished that read, "A Bridge Too Far", by Cornelius Ryan. It will give you some insights into the madness/eccentricity of the British.

The film is good - the book superb.

There is something quite strange about a chap who goes into battle with a Bowler and umbrella. (Actual person - Maj' Allison Digby Tatham-Warter)

[Brumbies Country]

Mick. et al

When you have finished that read, "A Bridge Too Far", by Cornelius Ryan. It will give you some insights into the madness/eccentricity of the British.

The film is good - the book superb.

There is something quite strange about a chap who goes into battle with a Bowler and umbrella. (Actual person - Maj' Allison Digby Tatham-Warter)

Yeah, well when you get a nation who label their sons with christian names like Allison and Evelyn, and then hyphenate their surnames, you have to expect that some of the chaps will be eccentric . With that eccentricity, however, come plenty of rattling good yarns.

[Mick Smith]

If I was ever in a situation where my life depended on fellow soldiers fighting in a unified manner against a skilled and determined enemy, I would feel pretty resentful towards any fellow soldier who wasn't prepared to do their "bit". I can appreciate eccentricity as much as the next man, but in a life and death situation, if some fool was running around without a weapon I may not feel as amenable.

Actually, I believe that a good bow in the hands of a skilled archer, would certainly be useful in some wartime situations, such as eliminating sentries, etc, particularly at night, but a modern silenced pistol would be more efficient and would also take far less training to be proficient with. I don't think a bow could compare to a Bren gun or even a half decent pistol in a normal firefight.

It's a wonder nobody thought of using a heavy bow to shoot arrows fitted with explode on contact grenades, over relatively long distances. It would be far more portable and convenient to use than a mortar and faster to get into action at any range.

Mick

[CM Sackett]

Evenin' Gents (10:52 CST... USA),

Howatt Mambas, Black Widow T/D (metal-riser) and Black Swans... before they were Black Swans, were utilized in combat situations throughout the Vietnam theatre.

There were Army 5th Special (Green Beret) operatives that were given the task of teaching the already formidable Montenyards how to make far more powerful English-style LBs (as opposed to their small crossbows), using indigenous materials... the plan worked.

NOTE: The utilization of bow and arrow, as a weapon of warfare continues in isolated incidents and theatres of operation. Their use is NOT publicized by the forces, nor acknowledged by the governments involved.


BTW, there was another English fellow during WWII that wreaked havok on German patrols along the French coast, until begged by MI 5 to "cease and desist". I'll try to find that piece on him... it's somewhere in my archive files.


Have A Grand Evening, ALL;
Sackett

[CM Sackett]

I just saw your post about the use of a bow to fire EOD (explode on delivery). Just such a projectile was requested, designed, tested and approved for use... against armored carriers, by the U.S. government... during VietNam.

It was a deadly success.


Sackett

[clinglish]

Thus the Term "Mad Dog's and Englishmen"

[Mick Smith]

Yes I suppose there's nothing new under the sun. Most of these trials would have involved quite a bit of secrecy. It would be interesting to know more about it and if there is any ongoing research in this area. A soldier equipped with a bow and grenade arrows, could carry far more ammunition than a comparitive soldier carrying a mortar plus mortar rounds, would have any hope of. If you add the fact that he would be capable of "direct fire" (something a mortar isn't capable of), he would be a great asset in most battles. He could also be armed with a high capacity pistol for those "spray and pray" situations that crop up every now and then.

Mick

[morgan]

I am currently doing a bit of research on crecy etc agincourt etc and stumbled onto this post. Very interesting

[Joel]

I am surprised noone has mentioned the greatest warrior of all time!? Rambo used a bow with amazing outcomes in First Blood Part II. Thats my input lol