Sport

Message

Jackrat · #1 Post by **Jackrat** » Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:52 pm

That is the question Grasshopper,
Is what we do really a sport?. Archery is a sport for sure,Rugby is a sport,
the greatest sport on earth with out a doubt,Soccer is a sport,A strange one but still a sport.The thing that makes them sports is that they have rules,points,scores,refferes,winners an losers.
So where does that leave us? We make our own rules,we have no judges,
no refs,no winners and no losers.Even when other folks think we lost,We
often consider we won.So what is this bowhunting thing.I don,t know about you but I have my own rules,I am my own judge,I don,t keep score and Iv,e never lost a hunt in my life.
I come home wet,dirty, empty handed,out of pocket, but still I do it.
The only thing I do know, is that this is not a sport.
So Grasshopper, Wod,a ya,reckon ?
Jack.

Glenn Newell · #2 Post by **Glenn Newell** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 6:50 am

Bowhunting has never been a sport to me. My whole life revolved around bowhunting. When I was in my early twentys I travelled around Western Queensland in my ute with my carpentry tools and bows. The first thing I would do in a new area was check out the hunting and more importantly pig numbers, if I was happy with the hunting I would look for work or move on, back in those days pigs and work were so plentiful it wasn't hard. So wether bowhunting has had a good or bad infulance on me I cant say but it has played a major role as to who I am today, I love it.
Unfortunatly there are people who see bowhunting as a sport and will do anything to become reconized in their sport and become big men in the eyes of theit peers, but in the end the most critical should be yourself. If we condunt our actions by field or flood with honour and diginity even when nobody else is there to see it as those who went before us then maybe the Grashopper will become the Master...Glenn...

erron · #3 Post by **erron** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 8:50 am

Good topic, good posts.

I'd say I hate sport, except it bores me beyond caring that much.

Bowhunting, in the Traditional domain, is something I've discovered (too?) late in life, and has come to define a lot of who and what I am. I'm not sure I can be more specific than that, but I tried to express what it meant to me in the "Where We Stand" link on the Ozbow main page.

It sure isn't sport, to me.

Erron

Jackrat · #4 Post by **Jackrat** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 9:34 am

Ah, yes two very good reply posts.
I find myself sometimes slipping into calling it a sport but then become rather put out if I hear somebody else do the same thing.
It does of course depend on who,s doing the talking.
Your "where we stand" hit the nail on the head for me,Erron.
In the world we live in today,there is not a lot left that is truly real,If we were to lose the right to hunt or carry a bow,we would be losing so much
more than ether.In our modern lives we can get away with most things and if we can,t get away with it then we can hire someone to make excuses for us.
One,Only one of the things that has always drawn me to the hunt is that at lest for me there are no excuses.When I am out on the hill I know the final decision is always mine.In the environment I hunt a mistake can mean death.On the hill the BS is gone,Reliance on ones own skill and knowlage is paramount.To lose this would be to lose far more than any sport.I will continue to respond to the issue of poaching and shooting ducks on golf courses with feild points because this is not a sport and I am not a sportsman,I am a Hunter,I need no excuses,If I lose my life on the hill,GOOD,better that than a rest home or a car crash.
JACK.

MarkP · #5 Post by **MarkP** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 8:10 pm

I reckon the traditional bow and wooden arrow present us each with an opportunity. What we choose to do with that opportunity is really an individual thing.

For some it might be sport, for others a passing fad. Some might seek the spiritual elements while others might see it as competition. For some its a way of life, and for others a hobby. For some it's relaxation and for others a business enterprise. For some its the hunt while for others its the friendship.

For myself its a combination of many of these things.

MIK · #6 Post by **MIK** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 12:43 am

well guys i think you are all right and probably the best way to put it is - A Life Style

there are winners and loosers though, when hunting you are pitting your skills against those of the animal

if you come home empty handed then the animal has won
if you come home with something in the tucker box then you have won
although even coming home empty handed one has still enjoyed a day or a week in the serene bush, so by real means it could be classified as a draw

i have a saying which has caught on around my home club

Archery - The Game Sucks
and it really does
It Sucks You Right In

and it is forever part of your life

cheers
MIK

erron · #7 Post by **erron** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 8:05 am

One thing worth noting in passing:

whenever I do a search for links or other stuff to do with Ozbow on the net, I find nothing suitable under Sport categories, but always find something under Outdoors.

Erron

Tuffcity · #8 Post by **Tuffcity** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 1:17 pm

The thing that makes them sports is that they have rules,points,scores,refferes,winners an losers.

It must be a "sport"...

Rules (#1): I get to go hunting when my *stuff* around home is finished... OK , sometimes... most of the time... I bugger off anyway.

Points: I score tons of them with my kids when I take them.

referee: my conscience (did I spell it right?), or the local game keeper

Winner: Me, if I "invite" something home for dinner, have a good day outside, etc

Loser: critter taking up space on the BBQ, me if I fall out of tree stand (which, fortunately, hasn't ever happened), other neferious events that will put a damper on an otherwise fine day afield.

It all fits Jackrat's criteria so it must be a sport!!

RC

#9 Post by **Stickbow Hunter** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 1:28 pm

G'day All,

This is a very valid topic for the bowhunters amongst us. There has been some very good points raised so far and I agree with most of them however I want to comment on something Mark P said.

I reckon the traditional bow and wooden arrow present us each with an opportunity. What we choose to do with that opportunity is really an individual thing.

While this may be the case in the real world today - and sadly I think it is -I don't feel it should be this way. I will try and explain why I believe this.

Bowhunting is constantly under threat. The simple fact of the matter is this. The right to bowhunt will be won or lost through politics whether we like it or not and the outcome will be decided by non hunters who must be convinced of why bowhunting should be allowed. In reality, the determining factor in its future will be how these people view our conduct as bowhunters.

With these things in mind, can we justify the killing of animals just for fun (sport)? I don't think so!

Can we justify the killing of animals just to make money - business enterprise? I don't think so!

Can we justify the killing of animals as a hobby, for competition or a passing fad? I don't think so!

Why do we bowhunt?

Our answers to this very important question will, and does, have a DIRECT effect on how people - winthin our own ranks as well as from outside - view bowhunting.

It is time that each one of us decides just why we bowhunt. Can we justify our killing of animals by way of bowhunting?

For bowhunting to continue we each MUST be able to justify why we hunt.

I think Glenns earlier thread titled "Our responsibilities to the game we hunt" is worth looking at again here also.

I think this is a great thread. It makes us think - to justify our actions.

We each can put forward our opinions. Some say this is divisive but I say that is nonsense. Debate within bowhunting - sharing our opinions - brings issues to the forefront and requires people to reflect on what they believe and why they do it. It is proper and constructive. If we are not forced to face our weaknesses and our contradictions, then we will suffer defeat when opponets (antis etc) use them against us.

What are your thoughts?

Jeff

MarkP · #10 Post by **MarkP** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 2:26 pm

Jeff,

In response I would say that my post does not support killing for sport, hobby, fad or business. Only that some will take up the traditional bow and arrow for these and other reasons. I agree with your comments about 'killing' should never be seen to be undertaken for any of these reasons.

I would also like to address the comments that it will be non-hunters and politics who will decide our right to hunt, and we need to convince non hunters of why bowhunting should continue to be allowed.

Totally agree with your point but would like to add something about perceptions. Often in politics a decision is made by the decision maker based on perception. The non-informed decision maker takes advice from various sources and then makes a decision. Often it is only a small number of people involved in the process - perhaps a few people who oppose something, and a few people who appear to offer support. Usually on relatively minor political decisions the broader public are either not interested, have no particular view, or are not involved in the decision making process.

What I am leading to is the importance of a very proactive, very strong and very very professional voice. The ability to make sure we are represented fully now and when the time comes by someone who is knowledgeable, articulate and cabable of influencing the decision maker what ever the circumstances.

Take the 4WD or horse riding lobby groups. They are well represented whenever their access is threatened. Politicians are quickly educated about value to community, number of jobs, size of industry, tourism benefits etc, etc - and they are educated by representatives who have learnt how to play the game. Access decisions aren't usually made by the broad community but by a few anti's and a small number of reps pressing their case until the decision maker goes one way or the other. I think it might be the same with us.

If we can ensure the decision maker has the understanding and perception of community value attached to bowhunting then we'll be well on the way. At the moment I don't think we do this (why aren't we in the same battles alongside the horsies and 4WDrivers??), I don't think we are ready, and I think we are very exposed. We need professional representation and an active voice.

Cheers
MarkP

erron · #11 Post by **erron** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 5:44 pm

Often it is only a small number of people involved in the process - perhaps a few people who oppose something, and a few people who appear to offer support.

- witness the loss of Bowhunting in Brittain years ago. The vote was lost on a slim margin (was it one vote?) because the person/persons who was/were going to vote to keep Bowhunting, failed to show for the actual vote. Also, someone here - it may have been Glenn - related a story about bowhunting in QLD being saved by the representation of one person to the minister at the crucial time when he was deciding its fate.

If it's unfair that so much can swing on such a slender margin, it's also instructive to us that so much can be gained, won or retained by the focussed actions of a few.

We should never think our efforts are in vain.

Fears and doubts are self-defeating. If you don't fight, you lose!

We need professional representation and an active voice.

- these topics seem to keep returning to the subject of our national organization, don't they?

Great thread, great posts from all.

Erron

#12 Post by **Stickbow Hunter** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 5:59 pm

Mark P,

I wasn't saying your post supported those things either. I was just taking that opening paragraph and commenting on it. Sometimes it's hard to convey things via a computer screen.

I agree with your comments above. However I still feel that when the crunch comes, having the support of the non hunting public will be of great importance. You see, if the uninformed decision maker finds out that the bowhunters (voters) have the support of the non hunting public (a lot more voters) it may sway him to the side of the bowhunter. If the bowhunters don't have that support than it won't effect him politically if his decision goes against a few bowhunters alone.

Your outline of the political process is often the way it happens and it is important that bowhunters have a representative ready. I know of only two states - Victoria and Tassie - where this is presently done via the Australian Bowhunters Association (ABA). I would add to this that I don't think this would be done by them either, except for one man - Dennis La Varenne. He is the backbone of bowhunting/hunting defence in these states IMO.

As you say we need a bowhunting voice but where does it come from? I believe the ABA does not represent bowhunting in this country as its name suggests. That is the problem and one that must be looked at.

Thanks for your comments and I hope others will chime in with their views also. Jeff

MarkP · #13 Post by **MarkP** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 8:57 pm

Jeff

I agree with you that we also need to be always working to gain the support of the non bowhunting public.

As to how we get effective representation I would hope all the contributers to the web site might chip in with some suggestions. We already have a representative body so would it be easiest if they fulfilled this role? I'm no longer a member of the association for the very reason of a lack of representation. Yet should concerned individuals work through and with the association to make the changes, or have we tried this and failed enough times to know it won't work???

If it can't be made to work from the inside then perhaps something external is our only option.

This website presents a fantastic opportunity to canvas a broad range of views on matters like this and perhaps develop a consensus. Being up in Cairns this site presents great contact with fellow traditional bowhunters who otherwise might not get together for a year or more.

Perhaps we should pick a 12 month period, in a coordinated approach collectively apply maximum effort within the association (rejoin if necessary) and see what can be achieved. If we have achieved little or nothing after 12 months we can go to plan B ....???

Any other suggestions?

MarkP

Jock · #14 Post by **Jock** » Mon Sep 08, 2003 5:29 am

Good Post Guys and very important, we in Britain can't legally bowhunt and our "Sporting Rights" as British citizens are slowly but surely being whittled away by both politicians and non hunters (Antis). don't make the mistakes we have made over here in letting these people destroy our way of life without doing something about it while it was actually happening, as usual we always left it too late, there's no room for complacency, Attack is the best form of defence and I totally agree in what has been said regarding educating the right people with the right reasons for Bowhunting, do it now while the ball is still in your court.
Jock.

Jock · #15 Post by **Jock** » Tue Sep 09, 2003 5:52 am

Erron, As a matter of interest, where and how did you get the information regarding the Banning of Bowhunting in Britain?
Jock.

Dennis La Varenne · #16 Post by **Dennis La Varenne** » Tue Sep 09, 2003 8:23 pm

Is hunting a sport???

No, it isn't. A sport is a game, usually competitive with a winner and loser, principally as an enertainment. I realise that this can apply to a lot of the hunting as it is done today with the emphasis upon accumulating hunting award fly-bys.

In another post, I have made a couple of comments upon our ethical responsibility to the animals we hunt which I hope make it quite clear why hunting can never be a game. Taking the life of an animal is never a game. It is one of the gravest responsibilities we can have.

By taking up our hunting heritage and its traditions, we enter into an ethical agreement among ourselves which binds us to certain behaviours toward the animals we hunt. We deliberately revert to an earlier tradition in our history which re-aquaints us with the skills of an ancient subsistence heritage which belongs to us all and is common to all peoples the world over.

Even in primitive societies, there was a clear distinction between hunting and entertainments. They were never confused. That never means that there should never be any enjoyment of the hunt. That enjoyment is what motivates us to improvement and ultimate success in that pursuit.

I am sure that there are unlimited sophistries which can make parallels between hunting and sports, especially in this day and age where the main distinction in society is between the way in which one makes one's living (earning money) and everything else which is regarded as entertainment/sports.

There may be sports/game/entertainments within heritage traditions, but the heritage itself is not a sport. I am sure that shooting bows became competitive 'sports' among ancient peoples, but the their use for hunting was never a game.

What we hunters practice is the remnant of the way our ancestors made their living, and that is what distinguishes it from a sport/entertainment.

erron · #17 Post by **erron** » Tue Sep 09, 2003 9:35 pm

Jock,

I'm sorry I can't pinpoint the source exactly, but it's been on the American sites a few times, and the story as far as I recall is often started or supported by Brits. bemoaning their lost opportunities. Why do you ask, don't tell me this is another of the internet's Urban Legends?

Dennis, great post!

I particularly like:

We deliberately revert to an earlier tradition in our history which re-aquaints us with the skills of an ancient subsistence heritage which belongs to us all and is common to all peoples the world over.

- that says it for me.

Erron

ozlongbow · #18 Post by **ozlongbow** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:59 pm

John McEnroe said for soemthing to be a sport you have to at some stage run.
I haven't had to run yet, but then I've only been pig hunting once and they were little ones.

So until I have to run, I'll gladly agree that it's a lifestyle!

Lindsay

Singlestring · #19 Post by **Singlestring** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 6:42 pm

Lindsay,
When they get bigger think hurdles, cricket,longjump, highjump and some botany( you might as well study the trees while your upem)

Seriously all these points Dennis to respect the animal should be gospel to us.
The word sport doesn't have the same feel to it that it had to me 30yrs ago.
Back then I believed some one participated in sport because they had a passion for it , now sport seems to be an enterprise.
Same with Sportsmanship ( how you play)

Griffo · #20 Post by **Griffo** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 8:43 pm

Here's one thing to think about...

The Macquarie Pocket Dictionary defines sport as:

..."(1) activity pursued for exercise or pleasure, usually requiring some degree of physical skill"..."(2)particular form of pastime"...

I'm not saying that bowhunting is a "sport" but just pointing out that 'by definition' it may fall under the term.

I am personally uncomfortable and avoid using the term when describing what I do to others, I simply believe there's far more to it than 'sport'...that is, I don't believe the word encompasses all that bowhunting means to me and I don't think anyone can understand until they've put their heart and soul into it as most hunters do.

As a side note: archery, by definition is a "discipline". That is, when I take my shot, nothing that you have done, has a direct affect on the outcome of my arrow placement. That is, my shot is not directly affected by your shot. For example, in cricket, the batsman must react to the type of delivery presented to him by the bowler, and is 'forced' into either playing forward or back, attack or defense, onside or offside. In archery, when I step up to shoot, it's me and the target...no-one else has (should have

) any affect on my shooting.

Just something to think about.

Griffo

Jock · #21 Post by **Jock** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:38 pm

Erron,
It just seems such a grey area here regarding Bowhunting, I've asked a few cops and none of them have came up with anything concrete, they just say that it is illegal, no one can give me a definitve answer regarding Bowfishing either, word is that migratory fish (Salmon) ect, just can't be hunted with a bow, but it"might" be OK to bowfish for "course" fish on private water, and then it might not be. You were the first guy I have come across with the story of the lost opportunity through somebody not turning up to vote, personally I think you mabye right in your assumption that it is an Internet Urban Legend, then " mabye not".
Jock