WHY?

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greybeard
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WHY?

#1 Post by greybeard » Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:11 pm

“In 1922, Doug Easton began crafting custom wood bows and cedar arrows in Watsonville, California, USA. Although Doug produced tournament-grade, footed cedar arrows for the archery champions of that era, he was constantly frustrated with the inconsistency and lack of uniformity of wood shafts. Convinced that consistently straight uniform arrow shafts were impossible to manufacture from wood, Doug turned his attentions to aluminium. In 1939, he began manufacturing aluminium arrows in Los Angeles, California.”

“Since the 1950s, glass laminate has been used in bow making. Fred Bear was the first bow maker to cover his bows with glass. A good decision, as proved at the World Championship in Copenhagen in 1950: the archer Jean Lombardo shot with a laminate bow with its lemonwood wood core covered with glass.”

Fibre glass used in bows is considered to be traditional yet an aluminium arrow which predates fibreglass by ten years is not.

I shoot timber arrows out of all of my bows and particularly enjoy shooting timber arrows off the knuckle out of my selfbows.

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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Kendaric
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Re: WHY?

#2 Post by Kendaric » Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:53 pm

That's a good question. Is it possible that aluminium arrows at that time were not manufactured in sufficient quantities as to be considered a commerical product to be accessable by the general archery public?

I thought Howard Hill used glass laminates on his bows well before 1950, first as a backing material, and then later on both the back and belly.

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Re: WHY?

#3 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:42 pm

greybeard wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:11 pm
Fibre glass used in bows is considered to be traditional yet an aluminium arrow which predates fibreglass by ten years is not.
IMO aluminium and fibreglass arrows are traditional but I just like shooting wood. The reason arrows made of those materials were not allowed at the Australian Longbow Musters was that making your own wood arrows was a dying art which we wanted to keep alive so only allowed wood arrows. There is so much more that goes into making a good set of wood arrows than what there is in making aluminium or fibreglass arrows.

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Re: WHY?

#4 Post by Kendaric » Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:33 pm

Makes sense.

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Re: WHY?

#5 Post by greybeard » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:05 am

Jeff,

There is special feel about a set of well crafted timber arrows that can’t be matched by synthetic arrows.

Unfortunately, as the generation of our era pass on these crafts will probably be lost forever in Australia.

It will be a sad day when the selfbow disappears.

The image below is a section of an advertisement that appeared in ‘The Archery Review’ dated August 1931.
Oreno Split Bamboo And Cedar Laninated Arrows August 1931.jpg
Oreno Split Bamboo And Cedar Laninated Arrows August 1931.jpg (48.5 KiB) Viewed 1300 times
Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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Re: WHY?

#6 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:17 pm

greybeard wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:05 am
There is special feel about a set of well crafted timber arrows that can’t be matched by synthetic arrows.

Unfortunately, as the generation of our era pass on these crafts will probably be lost forever in Australia.

It will be a sad day when the selfbow disappears.
I agree 100%. Sadly, just like with compound archery, the traditional scene is adopting the same supermarket mentality of buying success rather than earning it. It disappoints me greatly to see the way Traditional Archery is going. It is changing so much and not for the better I'm afraid.

Yep, the self bow is disappearing and the art of making them along with it.

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Re: WHY?

#7 Post by greybeard » Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:58 pm

Kendaric wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:53 pm
I thought Howard Hill used glass laminates on his bows well before 1950, first as a backing material, and then later on both the back and belly.
Prior to the developments in GRP as we know today I believe bowyers were experimenting with various fibre type backings of the time.

Extracts below are from the Traditional Archery Society website.

“After I started making bows commercially, he [Howard Hill] came to San Diego to see me [Frank Eicholtz.] By that time, I had developed fiberglass and methods of using it [on bows] so that it out-shot anything else in speed and consistency. He brought me "Grandma" at 62 lbs. asking that I try to hold that weight with [the fiberglass] backing and facing. The day after he picked it up, he was back saying, "'Grandma' at 62 lbs. out-shoots 'Grandpa' at 82 lbs., so let's do him over, too."

“I taught Howard to use glass, glues, plastics etc. and supplied him for years.”

“Fiberglass was developed for the war effort during WWII (1941-1945) mainly by a company in San Diego called NARMCO. A researcher named Dr. Glenn Havens led this effort. Frank Eicholtz knew him, and Havens provided the fiberglass and expertise for the FIRST bows ever to be made from it. NARMCO named their fiberglass product Conolon.”

“I got this information directly from Frank Eicholtz himself and also from my older brother who worked at NARMCO as a career and retired from that company.”

“Modern bow construction was cradled in San Diego under the guidance of Frank Eicholtz who directly spawned archery for Harry Drake and Gordon Plastics and many others.”

“Don & Dave Gordon entered into a business partnership in 1953s producing fiberglass panels for commercial buildings, and fiberglass diving boards in southern California. In the mid-1950s, a San Diego bowyer named Frank Eicholtz approached them about making a better facing and backing for his laminated bows. After discussions that piqued the Gordon’s’ interest, the brothers started making a fiber reinforced laminate for the facing and backing for recurve bows. Early products sandwiched a wood core between layers of fiberglass-reinforced plastic.”


It would appear that Howard Hill did not make bows in a commercial sense, only bows for him and a few close friends. Apparently orders for bows were farmed out to other bowyers.

Daryl.

If some of the above information is not correct could someone post a correction?
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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Re: WHY?

#8 Post by sina55 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:44 pm

Traditional archery is a term that i feel is very misleading. We accept and use bows of very modern material , design and consruction , but when it comes to arrows we are very archaic in our outlook. The die hard wooden arrow fraternity tell us they are just as good as their modern counterpart but at most TAA shoots carbon/alloy arrows ect are not recognised . I personally would hate to see a separate division based on arrow material. We could end up like another archery association that has so many division's every one wins.
Myself , l love to shoot and make wooden arrows but I also use carbons depending on the bow and type of archery I am doing.
I think the majority of us think ourselves as traditional archers , I know I certainly do , but the equipment , target and shoot formats we use are far from traditional . So how do we define the term traditional ? There is as many answers as the are people reading this.

Just my thoughts
Gary

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Re: WHY?

#9 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:57 pm

sina55 wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:44 pm
The die hard wooden arrow fraternity tell us they are just as good as their modern counterpart but at most TAA shoots carbon/alloy arrows ect are not recognised . I personally would hate to see a separate division based on arrow material. We could end up like another archery association that has so many division's every one wins.
Gary, The reason most Trad shoots insist on wood arrows has been covered in one of my replies above. Also the majority of Trad shoots, from the time Trad shoots were started here in Australia, have always had wood arrows only so no extra divisions.
sina55 wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:44 pm
So how do we define the term traditional ? There is as many answers as the are people reading this.
There is only one defining answer to that question IMO and it stems from when archery changed forever with the invention of the compound bow in 1966. To differentiate the new compound archery from the archery up to that point in time the term Traditional Archery came into general acceptance to describe the old style archery. Our Traditional Archery heritage stems from the archery prior to the compound bow.

Jeff

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Re: WHY?

#10 Post by greybeard » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:31 pm

greybeard wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:58 pm
Kendaric wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:53 pm
I thought Howard Hill used glass laminates on his bows well before 1950, first as a backing material, and then later on both the back and belly.
Prior to the developments in GRP as we know today I believe bowyers were experimenting with various fibre type backings of the time......................
The advertisement below appeared in the Ben Pearson catalogues published in 1941 and 1949.
Ben Pearson 1949.jpg
Ben Pearson 1949.jpg (120.45 KiB) Viewed 1189 times
Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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Re: WHY?

#11 Post by GrahameA » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:12 am

Morning All.

Just to ask the question. If fibreglass laminated bows ard acceptable why not fibreglass arrows? :-)
Grahame.
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Re: WHY?

#12 Post by Outbackdad » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:59 am

Hi Grahame
I am happy to shoot woods for this reason.
Stickbow Hunter wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:42 pm

IMO aluminium and fibreglass arrows are traditional but I just like shooting wood. The reason arrows made of those materials were not allowed at the Australian Longbow Musters was that making your own wood arrows was a dying art which we wanted to keep alive so only allowed wood arrows. There is so much more that goes into making a good set of wood arrows than what there is in making aluminium or fibreglass arrows.

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Re: WHY?

#13 Post by matt61 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:26 am

We have an Invitational 3D shoot next weekend and are thinking of having a Trad division and to be eligible, you must be shooting feathered arrows and on the shelf
and that includes longbow and recurve all in the one group. If a shooter turns up with a ILF recurve with a springy rest and burger button and 250 grain knitting needle arrows, they will shooting with the bare compounds.
Any thoughts.????
Matt

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Re: WHY?

#14 Post by Kendaric » Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:45 pm

matt61 wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:26 am
If a shooter turns up with a ILF recurve with a springy rest and burger button and 250 grain knitting needle arrows, they will shooting with the bare compounds.
Any thoughts.????
Matt
I think they will be put into the Recurve Un-Aided (RU): A recurve or longbow without a sighting device. A rest and plunger are all that may reside within the sight window. A clicker is allowed but must not be mounted in the sight window of the riser. There will be no markings on the bow or on the bowstring that could be construed as sighting marks. Must be shot with a glove, finger tab or bare fingers. The arrow shall be of the same material and in uniform length and weight. A stabilizer measuring 12” or less may be used in RU class. RU will be shot from the WHITE stake; maximum of 30 yards. NOTE: STRING WALKING AND FACE WALKING WILL BE ALLOWED IN THIS CLASS.

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Re: WHY?

#15 Post by Kendaric » Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:51 pm

Outbackdad wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:59 am
Hi Grahame
I am happy to shoot woods for this reason.
Stickbow Hunter wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:42 pm

IMO aluminium and fibreglass arrows are traditional but I just like shooting wood. The reason arrows made of those materials were not allowed at the Australian Longbow Musters was that making your own wood arrows was a dying art which we wanted to keep alive so only allowed wood arrows. There is so much more that goes into making a good set of wood arrows than what there is in making aluminium or fibreglass arrows.
Ditto, and with everyone using woods, it is a great equaliser.

If you want to shoot in Trad events with aluminuim, fibreglass or carbon, you can do so - it is just that your score will not count. No big deal.

It's a bit like entering into a Holden stock 202 race and complaining that you can't use Nitro, when everyone else is using petrol.

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Re: WHY?

#16 Post by greybeard » Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:25 pm

GrahameA wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:12 am
Morning All.

Just to ask the question. If fibreglass laminated bows ard acceptable why not fibreglass arrows? :-)
Grahame,

The topic was pre the introduction of fibreglass and not the post introduction of fibreglass.

The earliest reference that I can find regarding fibreglass arrows is from a Bear Catalogue dated 1958.
1958 Fibreglass Arrows_Bear Catalogue.jpg
1958 Fibreglass Arrows_Bear Catalogue.jpg (54.57 KiB) Viewed 1049 times
Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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Re: WHY?

#17 Post by clinglish » Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:00 pm

I think that this conversation has been done to death at most clubs and on cyber Boards around the globe.
I have shot and do shoot Timber arrows, I enjoy shooting them and when the comp specifies that i use woods to compete then that's fine.
However
I do get frustrated when someone feels they have the high moral ground whilst standing on the shooting line with a fully adjustable ILF bow with a cnc machined riser and carbon fiber limbs but because they have a set of matched custom woods it is supposed to be a level playing field.
I think that the line had to be drawn somewhere, but I think it should have been broken into eras not equipment type.
Pre 19oo
1901 to 1950
1951 to 2000
and so on.
you could apply standard across the board rules around the use of sites but the equipment would be easily determined in my opinion
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Re: WHY?

#18 Post by greybeard » Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:27 pm

clinglish wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:00 pm
....................I think that the line had to be drawn somewhere.......................
I agree. There are probably a few alternatives that could be massaged into a workable solution.

Unfortunately we face the same old issue; the archers that push for change appear to be the ones reluctant to put in any effort to bring the changes into being.

Do you know of anyone willing to commit themselves to make the changes happen?

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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Re: WHY?

#19 Post by clinglish » Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:26 pm

I have briefly toyed with the idea of getting more heavily involved in an association such as TAA or ABA.
The biggest issue I have is time and also to bring about change like this it requires those that worked hard at the beginning to be prepared to support change or at least move aside to allow it to happen.
As with so many organisations there has to be a critical mass of support before anything like that will occur
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Re: WHY?

#20 Post by greybeard » Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:27 pm

The membership numbers in associations such as 3DAAA and ABA is probably made up of somewhere around 85 to 90 percent compound shooters.

For this reason I sometimes wonder if non compound shooters are tolerated to keep them quiet.

Could there be more opportunity for uniformity in guidelines etc. if individual clubs that host traditional shoots got together and formulated them.

The club of which I am a life member is affiliated with 3DAAA.

Once our proposed traditional shoot has been sanctioned by 3DAAA we are free to use our own equipment rules etc.

The only proviso is that the ranges are checked by a qualified range safety officer and all safety rules are adhered to.

The task of formulating equipment guidelines could be less arduous if shared between participating club committees.

Reaching a consensus of opinion may however prove to be a little more difficult.

Daryl.

[The only way I can get my arrows to group is to put them in my quiver!]
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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Re: WHY?

#21 Post by clinglish » Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:30 pm

So, if we broke the demarcation down into Eras
What would be defining moments where technology has lead to a definable change in construction in equipment
Eg sinew backed to glass
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Re: WHY?

#22 Post by greybeard » Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:56 am

Those contemplating rule changes or writing a new set of rules/guidelines will need to have documentary evidence to substantiate them.

The information below was collected from various sources on the internet and I cannot say for certainty that they are completely accurate.

Time line for innovations,

Medieval bows prior to the Victorian era and primitive;

Wooden selfbows of varying lengths and cross sections, composite bows such as Asiatic bows, European, Chinese, Inuit and various native societies etc.

Keep in mind the cross pollination of ideas between hunting/field archery and target archery.

Circa 1850-Quote Horace Ford; rigid handle longbows, reflexed longbows, sleeve takedown longbows, bi and tri laminate longbows.
1933 Seefab introduced the first take-apart steel bow.
1934-Patent for Optical Bow Sight [Urquhart Wilcox]
1937-First use of bow-sights in archery competition.
1939-James Easton experiments with making arrow shafts out of aluminium, rather than wood.
1941-Larry Hughes uses aluminium arrows to win the American National (archery) Championship.
1942-Hoyt Archery Co., founded by Earl Hoyt, Jr.
Bow backing and facings.
http://leatherwall.bowsite.com/TF/lw/th ... CATEGORY=3
1946-Easton produces its first trademarked aluminium arrows, the “24 SRT-X”.
1951-Max Hamilton introduces “Plastiflech” vanes to replace feathers.
1953-Bear Archery develops and sells the first working recurve bows.
1953-Rocky Teller advertises his tubular fibreglass arrows.
1953-Solid fiberglass bows advertised.
1954-Elevated arrow rest.
1956-Hoyt Archery develops the first “Pistol grip” bow handle.
1958-Easton develops the “XX7S’ aluminium arrow shaft.
1961-Hoyt Archery introduces the “Torque stabilizer”.
1963- Bob Lee [Wing] introduces the three piece takedown recurve and longbow.
1965-Norm Pint invents the ‘Panic Button’, later to be copied by Vic Berger and marketed as the Berger Button.
1966-Easton develops the “X7” aluminium arrow shaft.
1969-Holless Wilber Allen is granted a patent on his invention of the Compound Bow which he designed 3 or 4 years earlier. His original wheels were triangular in shape.
1970-Compound bows and release aids make their national debut in U.S. national archery competition.
1970 / 1971-Black Widow discontinue production of their one piece recurve bows.
1971-Andy Rimo develops the “flipper” rest.
1971-Flex Fletch manufactures its first soft plastic arrow vanes.
1972-Earl Hoyt; take down archery bow with a mount for a bow stabilizing element.
1974-Freddie Troncoso invents the first dual-prong arrow rest.
1982-Cam wheels on compound bows first appear. Previous wheels where perfectly round.
1983-Easton develops the first carbon arrow shaft.
1985-Patent granted to E. Hoyt Jnr. for ‘Archery Bow having Bow Limb Assembly and Adjustment’ now plagiarised and referred to as ‘ILF’.
1992-Matt McPherson founds Matthews Archery Co., manufacturing bows with single-cam technology.
1995-The Compound Bow is included in the World Target Archery Championship competition for the first time.

The early glass back and belly recurve bows [Smithwick- Jennings, White and Frank Eicholtz etc.] had forward handles with slight reflex in the limbs transitioning into recurved tips. Building deflex into the limbs happened at a later date.
Jennings_Smithwick Bows.jpg
Jennings_Smithwick Bows.jpg (46.05 KiB) Viewed 846 times
“The company S&J (Smithwick & Jennings) was based out of N. Hollywood California. Also, their manufacturing plant was based out of Valencia, California. Ultimately, the partnership of S&J split resulting in Smithwick suing Jennings over the patent rights for the bow. Smithwick won the case in court. However, Jennings could not pay, which resulted in the operation being turned over to the bank. Then, the company was purchased from the bank by Fred Bear and his company.”

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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Re: WHY?

#23 Post by matt61 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:47 am

Make a division for them at your shoots. A fella who shoots carbon or aluminium arrows money goes into the club bank account
just as easily as the fellas that shoot wooden arrows doe's.
Matt

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Re: WHY?

#24 Post by perry » Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:26 pm

Some years ago Greybeard and I established a set of Guidelines with input from other members of Ozbow that pretty much covered what's been discussed here so far and they were pretty well received and versions of them adopted by quite a few Clubs over the years to use for there Trad Shoots. ABA even borrowed the definition they use for a Modern Longbow (I hate that term but that's another subject😂)Traditional Archery Australia's Guidelines are pretty much the same

Unfortunately I can't find my Copy and the Thread re the Guidelines was lost when Ozbow was hacked.

I disagree that Trad Skills are not being preserved or passed on today. I rarely get to shoots these days due to financial and health reasons but the company I keep by and large are not only skilled Trad Shooters but skilled Craftsmen. We all share our Skills openly and will continue to do so until our last breath. I feel if you have Trad Skills it is your responsibility to share them,, to pass them on because Archery has given you a great deal in you life. Passing on these Skills is the Tradition !

There are more pure Trad Clubs about today than I could have hoped for even 2 or 3 years ago. There is several clubs committed to Traditional Asian Archery as well as a number committed to Western Traditional Archery.The English War Bow Skills are gaining momentum in Australia because of the efforts of Colin Gair. Take the time to look about, Australia is on the verge of becoming a very strong Trad Archery Country.

There is no use having Skills and then express sadness they are dying if you and don't share/pass them on. Yesterday Dave McGuire, Guy from the Grange Bowmen and I gave an all encompassing Question and Answer presentation at the Grange Bowmen's Beginners Weekend. This weekend covered everything from Butchering Game (a Rusa Deer was Butchered and Eaten ), Bowhunting and of coarse our presentation. It was meant to go for 30 minutes but ended up over an hour and a half and was very well received

Traditional Archery Australia conducts Selfbow Workshops in South East Queensland at present but are looking for People willing to conduct Workshops in other Regions and States. Every shoot I do get to I arrange to meet and teach someone a Trad Skill and I know of other People who do the same. Traditional Skills are actually gathering momentum and the more people that take a step forward and pass on their Skills the stronger Traditional Archery in Australia will be.
"To my deep morticication my father once said to me, 'You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family.' "

- Charles Darwin

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