DECURVE LONGBOW DESIGN

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greybeard
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DECURVE LONGBOW DESIGN

#1 Post by greybeard » Sun Dec 02, 2018 4:02 pm

The following article refers to laminated glass/wood bows and not selfbows.

Some bowyers in the USA are offering decurve / deflex longbows on their websites. Unfortunately some are referring to them as ‘string follow bows.’

Their efforts appear to be directed to alleviating hand shock associated Howard Hill patterned longbows; a style of bow that has probably been copied by more bowyers than any other longbow.

Wiki, “A decurve [deflex] bow is a bow that has arms curved or curled at the base, to turn towards the archer when unstrung. This bow form reduces the strain on the limbs and also the energy stored by the weapon.”

Other comments off the internet;

“A well-built, correctly tillered Hill-style bow with limbs that return evenly should not cause painful hand shock. You'll feel some thump when the limbs hit bottom but it shouldn't be much. Poorly tillered and timed limbs are probably the reason these bows have such a bad rap for hand shock... that and the belief you gotta bow heel the crap out of the grip and hold it tight. Those things only amplify the negative effects of hand shock.”

I can remember in the 80’s Ted Mitchell Snr saying “you need to use a white knuckle grip on these bows” that’s how he shot his bow.

“a bow that slightly follows the string doesn't have the shock normally associated with a straight-limbed longbow,”

“Should "string follow" be built into a longbow? [Belcher Bows]

There’s a misnomer about sting follow in bows. You put string follow into bows you make a heavier bow lighter. It makes no sense. You make thicker limbs less efficient. You make a 55# bow a 50# bow, so you don’t get the lightness of limb. You just get a heavy limb with no cast on the premise that there’s string follow in it. Nobody ever did that. Howard Hill never did that to any of his bows ever, never! It naturally occurred into the bow, and as it naturally occurred, the bow goes where it wants to. And it shoots better for it. You can’t build it in. And if you do build string follow into the bow and then you get natural string follow you’ll probably make a 60# bow a 50# bow! And now it’s 15% to 20% less efficient!”


Unfortunately there appears to be no statistical data to confirm the varying degree of the effects of the above.

A lesser power stroke and less stored energy for a given draw weight bow would appear to be a bad trade off to reduce hand shock in poorly designed / tillered bow.

Not having owned a H. Hill bow I cannot express an opinion one way or the other. I did have 60# Vince Hamilton longbow which followed the Hill pattern, the limbs being reflexed about 1”. From memory it wasn’t too bad in the hand.

https://discussions.texasbowhunter.com/ ... 61016.html

What are your thoughts on the above?

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

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Re: DECURVE LONGBOW DESIGN

#2 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:33 pm

Daryl, As you know I have shot what people are calling Hill style longbows for over thirty years and there is no way known that I would build one with a deflex limb profile. To me doing so doesn't make sense for the same reasons as given in the Belcher Bows comment in your post.

Yes, they say they have better shooting qualities, less hand shock without giving up performance; that is just nonsense IMO. To make a bow purposely with a deflex limb profile, that will shoot 10 - 15 fps slower than one made with reflexed limbs, just doesn't make sense to me. Performance, fps, with these bows is way less than the same bow built with a reflex limb profile. Also I don't agree with the whole hand shock is less with these bows; hand shock is more to do with limb design and tillering than it is to do with the deflex or reflex limb design. A badly tillered deflexed limb profile bow will have more hand shock than a properly tillered reflexed limb profile bow. Admittedly a bow with extremely reflexed limbs can become unstable and have considerable hand shock but we are talking extremes.

By the way, all the old Howard Hill bows that I have seen photos of were built with a lot of reflex in the limbs!

The longbows I make have quite a bit of reflex in the limbs. However I have a considerable amount of taper per inch in the core laminations; and I build the limbs to be narrow with a deep core. This ensures the limbs have the correct bend for the amount of reflex and makes the overall weight of the limbs as light as possible. With correct tillering I do not think the bump I feel when an arrow is loosed is what I would call excessive hand shock.

A limb design I have found that does seem to make for a harsher shooting bow is one with set back; the limbs are set back from the riser in a straight line, no reflex curve in the limb.

I guess in a long winded way what I am trying to say is that bows with a deflex limb profile will not automatically have better shooting characteristics than others with different limb profiles. In fact I think it true to say that they have more negatives than positives over some of the other limb designs.

In the end there is no perfect bow but hopefully we can all find one, that for us, has more positives than negatives. :biggrin:

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Re: DECURVE LONGBOW DESIGN

#3 Post by Kendaric » Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:41 am

Stickbow Hunter is very correct about the amounts of reflex and limb design.

Another aspect to consider, is that if they are receiving a lot of hand shock (or any hand shock), they are gripping the bow too tightly.

Assuming a bow sling is not allowed or used, ideally a bow should be only held as much as not to allow it jump out of your hand upon release, and no more.

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Re: DECURVE LONGBOW DESIGN

#4 Post by greybeard » Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:39 pm

Could the handle profile affect the manner in which limb vibration is dissipated?
Handle Compilation.jpg
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I tried my longbow this morning and there was no noticeable difference in the absence of ‘kick’ weather I held the bow in a loose grip or strangled the grip. Perhaps we get used to some of the nuisances with our bows and over time we don’t notice them. However, what I did notice was the residual string vibration being transmitted into the limbs when I had a bad release.

All being equal, is the ‘kick’ proportional to the bows draw weight?

Apparently there are different interpretations of the term ‘heeling’ the bow. Some say it refers to the part of the palm between the base of the thumb and the wrist, others think it referred to the lower part of the palm opposite to the thumb. I thought it was the latter. This is mentioned in the following link;

http://www.dickwightman.com/howardhill/ ... lgrip.html

I find a loose grip with the pivot point of the bow in the web between the thumb and index finger and the fingers loose across the back of the bow with a little pressure applied with the index finger is a comfortable grip. Some use the finger tips placed on the back of the handle to hold the bow in place.

The image below was taken in 1938.
Finger Placement.jpg
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Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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Re: DECURVE LONGBOW DESIGN

#5 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:03 pm

greybeard wrote: Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:39 pm Could the handle profile affect the manner in which limb vibration is dissipated?
I don't think it would.
greybeard wrote: Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:39 pm All being equal, is the ‘kick’ proportional to the bows draw weight?
I think limb design and tiller makes more difference in this area than draw weight.
greybeard wrote: Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:39 pm Apparently there are different interpretations of the term ‘heeling’ the bow. Some say it refers to the part of the palm between the base of the thumb and the wrist, others think it referred to the lower part of the palm opposite to the thumb. I thought it was the latter.
I agree with you Daryl.

I use a firm grip with my longbows/self bows and find a loose grip causes more thump and is unpleasant to shoot. I hold a bow similar to holding a suitcase handle (closed fist). I ensure my hand is in line with my forearm so I am drawing directly in line with the forearm so the drawing forces do not cause the bow to torque left or right.

In the last photo you posted Daryl, it would be hard to draw that bow differently as there is little distance back to belly wise.

Jeff

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Re: DECURVE LONGBOW DESIGN

#6 Post by Kendaric » Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:44 pm

Hello Jeff. Would it be true to say that you build reflex though out the entire limb, distributing the force evenly through out the bow, where as many of the Howard Hill style reflex bows are more done with what might be described as off-set, which is more pronounced at the handle/riser, therefore concentrating forces at that point, which might be then felt as hand shock?

As to decurve, I have noticed that all the straight laid longbows I have owned, all develop a very small amount of string follow after use, when unstrung.

Greybeard, I can understand where you might be coming from with regards handle profiles - the deeper the handle in relation to the end of the fade, the greater the inherent natural reflex. Reflex/deflex is also related to the pivot point (where the palm rests), to where the limb starts its bend.

Heeling to me, has always been the part of the hand which is the very bottom of the hand, opposite the thumb. I have never shot a longbow where heeling the bow has resulted in a sweet shot. Heeling a bow also increases the chances of hitting your arm with the bowstring.

I cant say that using Howard Hill is a good example for the average shooter - Howard heeled his longbows, however it must be pointed out that he made deliberate efforts to reduce his drawlength, and shot with a very bend bow arm. He shot very heavy bows, and practiced constantly to keep his toning. Using a quite bent elbow requires a lot of effort. Ideally the bowarm should be mostly straight, but not locked.
Last edited by Kendaric on Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: DECURVE LONGBOW DESIGN

#7 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:54 am

Kendaric wrote: Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:44 pm Hello Jeff. Would it be true to say that you build reflex though out the entire limb, distributing the force evenly through out the bow, where as many of the Howard Hill style reflex bows are more done with what might be described as off-set, which is more pronounced at the handle/riser, therefore concentrating forces at that point, which might be then felt as hand shock?
Yes that is correct but I use limb taper to assist with this also. What you term off-set is what I described, I think, in this comment above; "A limb design I have found that does seem to make for a harsher shooting bow is one with set back; the limbs are set back from the riser in a straight line, no reflex curve in the limb." Bows of this design that I have shot are certainly more harsh to shoot.
Kendaric wrote: Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:44 pm As to decurve, I have noticed that all the straight laid longbows I have owned, all develop a very small amount of deflex after use, when unstrung.
Yes they all develop string follow. To purposely build this into a bow makes no sense to me.

I do not heel a bow but I do grip the bow firmly and have even pressure the width of my hand and have the drawing forces in line with my forearm.

Jeff

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Re: DECURVE LONGBOW DESIGN

#8 Post by BillieGates » Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:18 am

Kendaric wrote: Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:44 pm Hello Jeff. Would it be true to say that you build reflex though out the entire limb, distributing the force evenly through out the bow, where as many of the Howard Hill style reflex bows are more done with what might be described as off-set, which is more pronounced at the handle/riser, therefore concentrating forces at that point, which might be then felt as hand shock?

As to decurve, I have noticed that all the straight laid longbows I have owned, all develop a very small amount of string follow after use, when unstrung.

Greybeard, I can understand where you might be coming from with regards handle profiles - the deeper the handle in relation to the end of the fade, the greater the inherent natural reflex. Reflex/deflex is also related to the pivot point (where the palm rests), to where the limb starts its bend.

Heeling to me, has always been the part of the hand which is the very bottom of the hand, opposite the thumb. I have never shot a longbow where heeling the bow has resulted in a sweet shot. Heeling a bow also increases the chances of hitting your arm with the bowstring.

I cant say that using Howard Hill is a good example for the average shooter - Howard heeled his longbows, however it must be pointed out that he made deliberate efforts to reduce his drawlength, and shot with a very bend bow arm. He shot very heavy bows, and practiced constantly to keep his toning. Using a quite bent elbow requires a lot of effort. Ideally the bowarm should be mostly straight, but not locked.
I've hit my arm while heeling a bow and it is no fun whatsoever.

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Re: DECURVE LONGBOW DESIGN

#9 Post by greybeard » Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:04 pm

I did read that Howard Hill had big/long hands so maybe the customized deep handle design worked for him.

Perhaps a firm ‘suitcase’ grip on the bow was required to stop the bow from rotating to the left or right in the hand during the draw/anchor/release cycle.

Note the difference in the way the bows are held and the bent arm.
Hill_Ferguson Grip.jpg
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Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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Re: DECURVE LONGBOW DESIGN

#10 Post by Kendaric » Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:46 am

greybeard wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:04 pm Perhaps a firm ‘suitcase’ grip on the bow was required to stop the bow from rotating to the left or right in the hand during the draw/anchor/release cycle.
Daryl.
I read in one of Bryon's books that he deliberately built his longbow handles 15% off-centre for predictability of torque.

I've always said, that even centreshot compounds should still be set with a fraction off center to give direction and predictability - goes back to the 'sitting on the fence' senario - sit dead centre and you could fall either one way or the other. Sit just a little more one side and you will fall that side predictably.

However most traditional longbows arrowrests/shelves are built outside centreshot, so in both cases the point is mute I would think.

I did notice in some of Howard's video shots, that upon release that the bow would rotate anti-clockwise. Whether that was related to his grip firmness or wrist flicking, I could not say. Probably more to do with his arm moving to the left. Howard was the exception to the norm, but that does not take away from what he was able to achieved. Howard was what might be described nowadays as a power shooter - generally not recommend for the average shooter.

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Re: DECURVE LONGBOW DESIGN

#11 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:00 pm

BillieGates wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:18 am hit my arm while heeling a bow and it is no fun whatsoever.
I've always said if you are shooting a longbow correctly you will need an armguard to protect your forearm from the bow string. This is because of a lower brace height and drawing the bow inline with the forearm. Of course I don't mean it is ok to have the bow string contacting near the elbow running down the length of the forearm either.
greybeard wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:04 pm I did read that Howard Hill had big/long hands so maybe the customized deep handle design worked for him.

Perhaps a firm ‘suitcase’ grip on the bow was required to stop the bow from rotating to the left or right in the hand during the draw/anchor/release cycle.

Note the difference in the way the bows are held and the bent arm.
Kendaric wrote: Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:46 am I read in one of Bryon's books that he deliberately built his longbow handles 15% off-centre for predictability of torque.
To me longbows have no riser or just a small riser and they are shot with a firm grip. I would say Howard Hill made his risers the way he did so he could grip the bow firmly. He also had the length of the belly side of the grip only 3.5" to 4" long and the heel of his hand would actually be partly below the end of the grip. He needed the riser shaped like this so he could shoot the bow the way he wanted.

If you grip, draw and shoot a longbow similar to the way Howard Hill did you will find it actually negates torquing the bow.

Now look at the size of Byron Ferguson's riser and grip; it looks like a small log. He certainly has no intention of holding the bow in the same manner as Howard Hill did; he couldn't even, because of the size of the riser and grip.

I shoot a longbow with a firm grip and draw the bow in line with my forearm and to shoot in this manner the grip has to be small enough to wrap my hand around it. I don't have the belly of the grip of my bows as wedge shaped or as narrow as what Howard Hill liked but still small enough to grip the bow firmly. Shooting in this manner I have no problems with torquing the bow.

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Re: DECURVE LONGBOW DESIGN

#12 Post by Kendaric » Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:36 pm

Stickbow Hunter wrote: Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:00 pm I've always said if you are shooting a longbow correctly you will need an armguard to protect your forearm from the bow string. This is because of a lower brace height and drawing the bow inline with the forearm. Of course I don't mean it is ok to have the bow string contacting near the elbow running down the length of the forearm either.
Yes, I still need an arm guard with a longbow, and my knuckles rests around 40-45 degress to the handle/riser, with elbow very slightly out. It is not from the initial string travel that my arm gets hit, but from the lower brace height after the arrow has well and truly left the string - like a buzzing on the skin.

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Re: DECURVE LONGBOW DESIGN

#13 Post by Kendaric » Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:50 pm

Stickbow Hunter wrote: Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:00 pm He also had the length of the belly side of the grip only 3.5" to 4" long and the heel of his hand would actually be partly below the end of the grip. He needed the riser shaped like this so he could shoot the bow the way he wanted.
Now that is interesting, and makes sense, particularly with the bent low elbow he used.

I notice that the later (than the picture) Howard Hill longbows had a 16" riser/handle, where as it appears common to make traditional longbows nowadays that are over 66" with a 18" handle (measured to the very end of the fades). Byron's are certainly the later if not more.

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Re: DECURVE LONGBOW DESIGN

#14 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:48 pm

Kendaric wrote: Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:50 pm It is not from the initial string travel that my arm gets hit, but from the lower brace height after the arrow has well and truly left the string - like a buzzing on the skin.
That's it.
Kendaric wrote: Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:50 pm where as it appears common to make traditional longbows nowadays that are over 66" with a 18" handle (measured to the very end of the fades). Byron's are certainly the later if not more.
Yes and even over 20" long but I would not call them a traditional longbow.

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Re: DECURVE LONGBOW DESIGN

#15 Post by greybeard » Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:22 pm

This topic has probably taken a bit of a detour but never mind.

Handle cross sections are usually a personal preference for various reasons.

The majority of my longbow clients preferred the overall depth of the parallel handle to be between 1.5” and 1.75”.
A few requested a slight dip on the belly side of the handle starting just below the shelf for placement of the web between the finger and thumb.

Unfortunately two rounds of hand surgery have placed limitations on how I can hold a bow. With a balanced bow I can comfortably shoot straight or shaped handle / risers using a relaxed grip. The closer the limb is to the pivot point on my hand the better it is for me.
Hand Comp.jpg
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Deep handles such as the H.H. style could pose a problem for me with the bow wanting to rotate in the hand whereas the forward handle bow as shown in the photo should not be an issue.
J D Berry Longbows.jpg
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Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

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Re: DECURVE LONGBOW DESIGN

#16 Post by Chase N. Nocks » Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:06 pm

Jesus Darryl, that is awful mate.

I know it has been many months but I hope that has mended to the best that can be expected.

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Re: DECURVE LONGBOW DESIGN

#17 Post by Kendaric » Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:05 am

Stickbow Hunter wrote: Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:00 pm Now look at the size of Byron Ferguson's riser and grip; it looks like a small log. He certainly has no intention of holding the bow in the same manner as Howard Hill did; he couldn't even, because of the size of the riser and grip.
I have owned a bow made by Howard Hill Archery. Assuming that they make longbows to the same specs of yesteryear, I noted that the bow was quite skinny and the limbs were not the same length.

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