TRADITIONAL ARCHERY TERMINOLOGY

[Dennis La Varenne]

This is a link to a US site called 'The Traditional Archery Society' where the correct use of traditional archery terminology is discussed for those interested. I received it some time ago and kept forgetting to post it here. Anyway, here it is now - http://www.traditionalarcherysociety.co ... gy-8140503

[bigbob]

Hey Dennis! good to see you back on deck here. missed your valuable input into things!

[Dennis La Varenne]

Bob,

I have been working for some time now on a longish post concerning the value of bare shaft tuning and doing a lot of experimenting with the technique. I hope to have it all finished before too long and post it up on Ozbow.

I was about to send it all through and sent a copy to Eddy to peruse, but found that it needed some more work, so I held it back again.

I have also been working on updating and expanding the Traditional Archery Glossary of Terms. It now includes some historical stuff and small bios of some of the famous archers of by-gone times who contributed to the advancement of the archery of their day, including some of the early scientists working in the field. So, it has become a bit more than a simple glossary and become a bit of a repository of general Traditional Archery knowledge unknown to more modern enthusiasts who have no real knowledge of what Traditional Archery is trying to preserve.

I have a collection of over 300 wooden bows from the pre-fibreglass period, most of them commercially made and some made by non-professional bowyers and have learned a great deal from their study. I would like also to do some articles on these bows, how they were made, of what materials and how they perform.

I also have a pretty extensive archery library now including a largish number of archery magazine from those early days which discuss all the developments and new fangled gadgets of those times. The old magazines are a first rate resource when looking up what was going on on a monthly basis in archery in those pre-fibreglass days and how things were done. The goings on of those days is probably also well worth a few posts.

All good stuff.

So, I have been a bit busy.

[cadet]

I'll look forward to learning something from that sort of material!

[perry]

Good Post Dennis. I have been chatted a few times for using the term Deflex Reflex by confuzzled Archers as they hear Reflex Deflex so often the accept it as the correct description of their Bows limb design.

regards Perry

[Dennis La Varenne]

Perry,

Thank you for the reply. As you probably realise, both Jeff Challacombe and I have been beating that drum for many years to very little avail.

[Kendaric]

You really need to publish a book!

[Dennis La Varenne]

It has all been done before Kendaric, and is all in print if people can be bothered looking. I have a small mountain of books here on the whole subject that I found easily enough on the Net. What follows is a list of my library as it now stands. I have read the lot from cover to cover -

BOOKLIST
1. ABCs OF BOWHUNTING, Adams, Chuck, AMO Headquarters, North Palm Beach, Florida.
2. ABCs OF ARCHERY - Shakespeare Archery – 18pp booklet (Undated)
3. A HANDBOOK OF ARCHERY, Indian Archery & Toy Corp., Evansville, Indiana (undated).
4. A History of Target Archery, Heath, E.G., A.S. Barnes and Company, New York, ISBN 0-498-01434-7.
5. AMERICAN INDIAN ARCHERY, Laubin, Reginald and Gladys, University of Oklahoma Press, 1980. ISBN 0 8061 1467 3.
6. AN APPROACH TO THE STUDY OF ANCIENT ARCHERY USING MATHEMATICAL MODELLING, Kooi, B.W. and Bergman, C.A., Journal of The Society of Archer-Antiquaries, Volume 34, 1991.
7. ARCHERY, Eloise Jaeger, Athletic Institute Series, Sterling Publishing Co. Inc. NY, 1961
8. ARCHERY, Elmer, Robert P. MD, The Penn Publishing Company, Philadelphia 1926.
9. ARCHERY, Besco-Layer, Olive, Student handbooklet. Undated. ??1930s.
10. ARCHERY, Reichart, Natalie and Keasey, Gilman, A. S. Barnes & Co. New York, 1936.
11. ARCHERY, Reichart, Natalie and Keasey, Gilman, A. S. Barnes & Co. New York, 2nd edit, 1940.
12. ARCHERY, Brown Physical Education Activities Series, McKinney, Wayne C., Wm C. Brown Co Publishers, 1966. ISBN 0-697-07000-X (2).
13. ARCHERY, Wiseman, Howard and Brundle , Fred; W. & G. Foyle, London, 1956.
14. ARCHERY From A-Z, Howard Wiseman and Fred Brundle, Faber & Faber, London 1958.
15. ARCHERY FROM GOLDS TO BIG GAME, by Keith C. Schuyler, A.S. Barnes, New York 1970.
16. ARCHER’S DIGEST, 5th edit., DBI Books Inc. Combs, Roger ed., ISBN 0 87349 114 9 .
17. ARCHERY, THE BADMINTON LIBRARY, Longman, C. J. and Walrond, Col. H., Longmans, Green & Co. 1894.
18. ARCHERY HALL OF FAME AND MUSEUM, http://www.archeryhalloffame.com/ with especial thanks for reference materials.
19. ARCHERY, The Theory and Practice of, Ford, Horace, revisd and rewritten by Butt, W. MA, Longmans, Green & Co. London 1887.
20. ARCHERY HANDBOOK, Burke, Edmund H., Fawcett Publications Inc. 1954.
21. ARCHERY HANDBOOK, Gillelan, G. Howard and Stump, William, Trend Books Inc., Los Angeles, California 1958
22. ARCHERY MADE EASY, Pearson, Ben, The Perdue Co., Pine Bluff, Arkansas (undated).
23. ARCHERY SIMPLIFIED, Rounsevelle, Phillip, A.S. Barnes and Company Inc., New York 1931.
24. ARCHERY TACKLE – How to Make and Use it, Shane Adolph, 1936, republished 1990, Bois D’Arc Press, Texas.
25. ARCHERY: THE TECHNICAL SIDE, Hickman, C.N., Nagler, Forrest, Klopsteg, Paul E., National Field Archery Association, 1947.
26. A TREATISE ON ARCHERY 1827, Waring, Thomas, Kessinger Publishing reprint. ISBN 9781437470420.
27. BEN PEARSON CATALOG No.33, pp8 1961.
28. BETTER ARCHERY, Heath, E.G., Kaye & Ward, London, 1976. ISBN 0 7182 1446 3.
29. BOWHUNTING MANUAL, National Field Archery Association, 1962.
30. BOWMAN’S HANDBOOK, Technical Notes and Gadgets for the Practical Archer, Clover, Patrick, British Archer Publication, 1st edit 92pp.
31. BOWMAN’S HANDBOOK, Technical Notes and Gadgets for the Practical Archer, Clover, Patrick, British Archer Publication, 2nd edit 118pp.
32. BOWS AND ARROWS, Pope, Saxton T., University of California Press, 1962, 3rd Edition reprint.
33. BOWS AND ARROWS, Duff, James, 1st Ed., The Macmillan Co, New York, 1927.
34. BOWS AND ARROWS, Duff, James, 3rd Ed., The Macmillan Co, New York, 1941.
35. BOWS AND ARROWS OF THE NATIVE AMERICAN INDIANS, Hamm, Jim, Lyons & Burford Publishers, 1989. ISBN 1 55821 096 2.
36. BRAZILIAN INDIAN ARCHERY, Heath, E. G. and Chiara, Vilma, The Simon Archery Foundation, University of Manchester, 1977. ISBN 0 9503199 1 0.
37. BYGONE ARCHERY, Reid, Colin, The Guild of Elizabethan Archers, Newsbury (undated).
38. CHEROKEE BOWS AND ARROWS, Herrin, Al., White Bear Publishing, Tahlequah, Oklahoma, 1st Edit. 1989.
39. CLARENCE N. HICKMAN – The Father of Scientific Archery, Schumm, Maryanne M. Ed.D, Maples Press Inc. Pennsylvania 1983, ISBN 0-9613582-0-5.
40. COMPLETE BOOK OF THE BOW AND ARROW, Gilellan, G. Howard, The Stackpole Co. 1971.
41. ENCYCLOPAEDIA OF ARCHERY, Paterson, W. F., Robert Hale, London 1984, ISBN 0 7090 1072 9.
42. FIELD AND TARGET ARCHERY, Burke, Edmund, Arco Publishing Co Inc. New York, 1971. ISBN 0-688-008250-3.
43. FOR THE FIRST TIME BOWYER, Hulsey, Steve, self published 1991.
44. FUN WITH THE BOW AND ARROW, Coevering, Jack Van and Bear, Fred, Bear Archery Co. 1953.
45. GUIDE TO BETTER ARCHERY, Forbes, Thomas A, The Stackpole Company, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania 1955.
46. HENRY VIII’s LOST WARSHIPS, National Geographic, May, 1983, Vol 163, No. 5, pp646.
47. HERITAGE OF THE LONGBOW, THE, Bickerstaffe, Pip, Self published, 1999.
48. HOWARD HILL’S ARCHERY ADVENTURES, (Extracts from Howard Hill’s books), Trend Books Inc., Los Angeles, California 1955.
49. HOWARD HILL – THE MAN AND THE LEGEND, Ekin, Craig, Charger Productions Incorporated, 1982.
50. HOW TO HUNT WITH BOW AND ARROW, Meuhler, W. M. (Doc), Malibu Archery Co. (undated).
51. HOW TO IMPROVE YOUR ARCHERY, Jaeger, Eloise; Norckauer, Mary E.; Clark, Ann; Witt, Jack P.; The Athletic Institute, 1962.
52. HOW TO MAKE BOWS, Jennings, Tom and Kettredge, Doug, Sportsman Publications, California 1961.
53. HOW TO MAKE MODERN ARCHERY TACKLE, Stalker, Tracy L., Self published, 1954.
54. HUNTING THE HARD WAY, Hill, Howard, reprinted by Jerry Hill Longbow Co. Harpersville, Alabama, 1984.
55. HUNTING WITH THE BOW AND ARROW, Pope Saxton 1925, Wolf Publishing Co. reprint 1991.
56. HUNTING THE OSAGE BOW, Torges, Dean, self-published 1998. ISBN 0 9665107 0 4.
57. IN AFRICA, Swinehart, Bob, Boyer Publishing Co., Boyertown, Pennsylvania 1967.
58. IN PURSUIT OF ARCHERY, Edwards, C. B., and Heath, E. G. Nicholas Kaye Limited, London, 1962.
59. INSTINCTIVE SHOOTING, G. Fred Asbell, Stackpole Books, 1988.
60. INTRODUCTION TO ARCHERY, Schmidt, Marvin, Ziff-Davis Publishing Co., 1946.
61. ISHI IN TWO WORLDS, Kroeber, Theodora, University of California Press, 1965.
62. LONGBOW – A SOCIAL AND MILITARY HISTORY, Hardy, Robert, 5th Ed, Odcombe Press LP, ISBN 978 0 85733 248 6.
63. MAKING A LONGOW – Teaching the Bow to Bend, Schilling, Linda and Wlotzka, Michael, Schiffer Publishing, 2014. ISBN 978-0-7643-4595-1.
64. MAKING WOODEN LONGBOWS, Homer, Stuart, D.G.Quick publishers (undated).
65. MAKING WOODEN SELF ARROWS FOR LONGBOWS, Reid, C.D., self published 1978.
66. MARY ROSE, The Excavation and Raising of Henry VIII’s Flagship, Rule, Margaret, Conway Maritime Press 1982, ISBN 0 85177 382 6.
67. MEDIAEVAL WAR BOWS – A Bowyer’s Thoughts, Bickerstaffe, Pip, self published, 2006.
68. MEDITATIONS ON HUNTING, José Ortega y Gasset, Charles Scribner’s Sons, New York. 1972. ISBN 0-684-18630-6.
69. MODERN ARCHERY, Bilson, Frank L., The Paternoster Press, London, 4th edit, 1952.
70. MODERN ARCHERY, Lambert Jnr, Arthur W., A. S Barnes & Co., New York, 1929.
71. MODERN BOW HUNTING, Grogan, Hiram J, The Stackpole Company, Pennsylvania 1958.
72. MURRAY’S GUIDE TO ARCHERY, Series No. 11, Conway, Dallas ed., Murray Book Distributors Pty Ltd, 2007.
73. NATIVE AMERICAN BOWS AND ARROWS, Hamilton, T. M., Missouri Archaeological Society Special Publications No. 5, 2nd edit. 1982. ISBN 0 943414 00 8.
74. NEW GUIDE TO BETTER ARCHERY, Forbes, Thomas A, The Stackpole Company, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania 1960, 2nd edition enlarged.
75. POCKET GUIDE TO ARCHERY, Howard T. Sigler, Stackpole Books, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, 1960.
76. PROFESSIONAL AND AMATEUR ARCHERY TOURNAMENT AND HUNTING INSTRUCTIONS AND ENCYCLOPEDIA, Herter, George Leonard and Hofmeister, Russell, Herter’s Incorporated, Minnesota 1st edition 1963.
77. SHOOTING THE BOW, Whiffen, Larry C., The Bruce Publishing Co., Milwaukee. 1946.
78. SHOOTING THE LONGBOW (AND OTHER TIPS), Palmer, Dick, Harlo Press Michigan, 1st edition 1980. Harlo
79. SOME BOWYER’S NOTES, Arton, Kenneth O, self published, 1953.
80. STRAIGHT AND TRUE – A Select History of the Arrow, Soar, Hugh D. H., Westholm Publishing, Yardley, Pennsylvania 2012. ISBN 978-1-59416-147-6.
81. STUDENTS’ HANDBOOK OF ARCHERY, Rounsevelle Phillip, A. S. Barnes & Co. Inc. New York, 1939.
82. SYLLABUS ON ARCHERY FOR THE BEGINNER, York Archery Equipment & The Woodcraft Equipment Co. Independence, Missouri. (undated).
83. TARGET ARCHERY, Elmer, Robert P., Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 1946.
84. THE ADVENTUROUS BOWMEN – Field Notes on African Archery, Pope, Saxton 1926, Wolfe Publishing, Prescott Arizona reprint 1991.
85. THE ARCHER’S CRAFT, Hodgkin, Adrian Eliot, A. S. Barnes & Co., New York. US edit. Undated (??? 1st edition).
86. THE ARCHERY WORKSHOP, Stemmler, L. E. and Gordon, Paul H., Self published, 1935.
87. THE ARCHERY WORKSHOP, Stemmler, L. E., Self published, 1935.
88. THE ART OF MAKAING PRIMITIVE BOWS AND ARROWS, Waldorf, D.C., self published, 1985.
89. THE BADMINTON LIBRARY OF SPORTS AND PASTIMES – ARCHERY, Edited by His Grace, the Duke of Beaufort, KG., Longmans, Green & Co., London 1894 (2).
90. THE BASIC TECHNIQUE OF INSTINCTIVE FIELD ARCHERY, National Field Archery Association USA. (undated ???1960s)
91. THE BOOK OF ARCHERY being the COMPLETE HISTORY AND PRACTICE OF THE ART, Hansard, George Agar, Henry G Bohn, New York and Covent Garden 1841.
92. THE BOOK OF PRIMITIVE ARCHERY, Massey, Jay, Bear Paw Publications, 1990.
93. THE BOW AND ARROW FOR BIG GAME and ARCHERY, AN ENGINEERING VIEW, Nagler, Forrest, (Two titles in the one book), Frank Taylor & Son, Publishers, Albany, Oregon, 1941.
94. THE BOWYER’S CRAFT, Massey, Jay, Bear Paw Publications, Alaska 1987.
95. THE COMPLETE ARCHERY BOOK, Hochman, Louis, Arco Publishing Co. Inc. New York 1975. ISBN 0-668-00552-1.
96. THE ELEPHANT PEOPLE, Holman, Dennis, John Murray pub., 1967.
97. THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF ARCHERY, Hougham, Paul, A.S. Barnes & Company, New York 1958.
98. THE ESSENTIALS OF ARCHERY, Stemmler, L. E., Self published, 1942.
99. THE FLAT BOW, Hunt, W. Ben, Metz, John J., The Bruce Publishing Co., New York, Milwaukee, Chicago. 1936.
100. THE GREY GOOSE WING, Heath, E. G., Osprey Publications Ltd. 1971.
101. THE GREAT WARBOW, Strickland, Matthew and Hardy, Robert, Sutton Publishing, 2005, ISBN 0 7509 3167 1.
102. THE HERITAGE OF THE LONGBOW, Bickerstaffe, Pip, Self published, 1999.
103. THE HISTORY OF ARCHERY, Burke, Edmund, Heineman – London, Melbourne, Toronto, 1957.
104. THE HISTORY OF ARCHERY, Burke, Edmund, William Morrow and Co, New York, 1958.
105. THE LONGBOW, Loades, Mike, Osprey Publishing Ltd. 2013. ISBN 978 1 78200 085 3.
106. THE MARY ROSE – The Excavating and Raising of Henry VIII’s Flagship, Rule, Margaret, Conway Maritime Press Limited, 1990 reprint.
107. THE NEW ARCHERY – HOBBY, SPORT, CRAFT, Gordon, Paul H., D. Appleton-Century Co., New York, London, 1939.
108. THE NEW ARCHERY HANDBOOK, Laycock, George and Bauer, Erwin, Fawcett Publications Inc. 1965.
109. THE SPORT OF ARCHERY – The Selection and Use of Archery Equipment, The Archer’s Company, Bristol. 1935.
110. THE TEACHING OF ARCHERY, Craft, Dave and Cia, A.S. BARNES & Co., New York, 1936.
111. THE WITCHERY OF ARCHERY, Thompson, J. Maurice., The Archer’s Company, 1928.
112. TOXOPHILUS 1545, Ascham, Roger, Simon Archery Foundation, Manchester University, 1987. ISBN 0 9503199 0 9.
113. TURKISH ARCHERY AND THE COMPOSITE BOW, Klopsteg, Paul E., Self published, 2nd edition,1947.
114. WITH A BENDED BOW – Archery in Mediaeval and Renaissance Europe, Roth, Erik, Spellmount 2012. ISBN 978-0-7524-6355-1.
115. YOU CAN MAKE A BOW - HERE’S HOW, Farrell, Ed., self-published, 1959.
116. THE MECHANICS OF ARROW FLIGHT UPON RELEASE - Lieu, D.K., University of California, Berkeley. PDF undated.
117. ARCHER’S REFERENCE GUIDE (RECURVE), Balbardie Archers, UK., Ed. 1, 17 April 1999, Murray Elliot ed.
118. MARTIN ARCHERY OWNER’S MANUAL (COMPOUND BOWS), Undated, pp13 – 19
119. RECURVE BOW EQUIPMENT MANUAL MODULE, FITA Coach’s Manual, Intermediate Level, Undated.
120. BOW TUNING TESTS, (PDF), Ellison, Steve, Feb. 1998, pp3 - 5.
121. EASTON ARROW TUNING AND MAINTENANCE GUIDE, 2nd Edition, Revision 5, Nov. 2000.
122. RECURVE BOW TUNING - Blank Shaft Method, Archery Australia, September, 2007.
123. THE NUTS & BOLTS OF ARCHERY - A Guide To Tuning And Shooting Compound Bows, Nov. 15, 2010, pp31 – 36.

PERIODICALS
124. NFAA ‘ARCHERY’ MAGAZINE –
1945 – January, February, April, May, August, September, October, November, December.
1946 – February, March, April, October, November, December.
1947 – January, February, March, April, May, June, July, August, September, October, November, December.
1948 - February, March, April, May, June, July, August, December.
1949 - January, February, March, April, May, June, July, August, September, October, December.
1950 - January, February, March, April, May, June, July, August, September, October, November, December.
1951 - January, February, March, April, June, July, September, October, November, December.
1952 - January, February, March, April, May, June, July, August, September, October, November, December.
1953 - January, February, March, April, May, June, July, August, September, October, November, December.
1954 - January, February, March, April, May, June, July, August, September, October, November, December.
1955 - January, February, March, April, May, June, July, August, September, October, November, December.
1956 - January, February, March, April, May, June, July, August, September, October, November, December.
1957 - January, February, March, April, May, June, July, August, September, October, November, December.
1958 - January, February, March, April, May, June, July, August, September, October, November, December.
1959 - January, February, March, April, May, June, July, August, September, October, November, December.
1960 - February, March, April, October, November, December.
1961 - January, February, March, April, May, June, July, August, September, October, November, December.
1962 - January, March, April, June, July, August, September, November, December.
1963 - January, February, March, April, May, June, October, December.
1964 - January, February, March, April, May, June, July, August, October, November, December.
1965 - January, February, March, April, May, June, July, August, September, October, November, December.
1966 - January, February, March, June, September, October, November, December.
1967 - January, February, March, April, July, August, September, November, December.
1968 - February, April, May.
1969 - July.
1970 - May, June, August, September.
121. AMERICAN BOWMAN REVIEW –
1942 - August, September.
1943 - February, June, September.
1948 - January.
1950 - February, March, April, May, June, July.
1951 - January.
122. BOWHUNTING –
1960 - January, February, March, April, May, June, July, August, September, October, December.
1961 - March, August.
1962 - February, September.
123. BROADHEAD MAGAZINE –
1959 - June.
124. THE BOWHUNTER –
1953 - February, March, May.
1954 - November.
126. THE EASTERN BOWHUNTER –
1957 - January, May, July, December.
1958 - January, February, March, April, May, June, July, August, September, October, November, December.
127. THE LONGBOW MAGAZINE –
1988 - January, February, March, April, May, June, July, August, September, October, November, December.
1989 - January, February, May, June, July, August, September, October.
128. THE LONGBOW-RECURVE MAGAZINE –
1990 - August.
129. THE NATIONAL BOWHUNTER –
1957 - February.
1960 - November.
1961 - September.
1963 - June, July, August, September.

PDF ARTICLES ON BARE-SHAFT ARROW TUNING
130. Recurve Bow Tuning – FITA Coach’s manual
131. Martin Bow Owner’s Manual – 2001
132. 3Rivers Archery Basic Shaft and Arrow Tuning, undated.
133. Bow Tuning Tests, Steve Ellison, 1998
134. DANAGE TARGET FACE TUNING GUIDE, undated.
135. DYNAMIC SPINE TESTER – Stu Miller, undated.
136. EASTON ARROW TUNING AND MAINTENANCE GUIDE - April,1990, Rev. 4.
137. EASTON ARROW TUNING AND MAINTENANCE GUIDE – November, 2000, Rev. 5.
138. ARCHER’S REFERENCE GUIDE - Balbardie Archers, Murray Eliot, ed., April 1999.
139. MECHANICS OF ARROW FLIGHT UPON RELEASE – LIEU, D. K., University of California, Berkley, (undated).
140. RECURVE BOW TUNING BLANK SHAFT METHOD – THE RECOMMENDED METHOD, Archery Australia, September 2007.

[hunterguy1991]

Glad to see you are back on board Dennis!!

[Dennis La Varenne]

Very kind of you to say so, sir.

[Ian Turner]

Hi Dennis look forward to seeing your piece on bare shaft tuning.
Cheers

[Dennis La Varenne]

Thank you, Ian. I have put a lot of work and experimenting into what I have found and bare-shaft technique does work quite well, but in the original debate on Ozbow, that it didn't work was never my thesis. Clearly it does.

My original point was that so many of us are 'instinctive' archers who don't seem to have the problems getting good arrow flight that the proponents of the technique say that they get.

My testing it to suggest on reasonable and re-testable evidence which others can evaluate about why this difference occurs.

I felt that during the original debate that people were reading something into my responses that was not there - that I was against bare-shaft tuning. I was not. But neither had I tested it out. My argument was why this technique seemed to be so 'in-favour' almost to the extent of mandatory if you want your arrows to fly well that if you did not use it, you were highly unlikely ever to hit anything your aimed at other than by accident.

This idea was patently a matter of the over-advertising of a technique where it was not always necessary for many archers which endeavoured to seduce them into the idea that if they did not tune their arrows thus, they were doomed to shooting perdition. It was subtle, but it was there.

The article is long and involves a fair bit of reading and I am wondering whether to post it in its entirety or in installments. The problem with installments is that people begin to respond out of context from only a partial reading of the entire article, so I will probably post it in its entirety.

If there are methodological flaws in my technique, I hope that they are pointed out, but I am not interested in 'opinions' as such. Opinions have almost never been verified by by systematic testing. Neither is opinion derived from recollected general 'experience' for the same reason.

However, wherever in this article I offer a possible explanation derived from what I have actually done, that is what it is - an explanation, but derived from actual testing which I hope I have made clear.

[Kendaric]

The problem with installments is that people begin to respond out of context from only a partial reading of the entire article

So very true.

Your results will be very interesting.

[kimall]

I have shot with people that say they dont bare shaft tune and they dont need it because they can shoot accurately and get great groups so dont need it. When you stand behind these people you can see that the arrow wiggles and wags its way all the way to the target but because it does the same with a FIELD tip each shot it is all great in the world of the narrow minded target archer. Or the hunter says I put 5 inch feathers on my arrows and I get my game good enough so bare shafting is a waste of time. The biggest problem with trad shooting is that we can only compare how good something is by comparing it too what has come before and what we consider as a standard so if what we do NOW is crap then it does not have to be much better to BE BETTER. The other major problem is that people continue to gauge the benefits of new ideas on very old info that may be an accepted truth.....How many times have you read that 125 grains is the best weight point or you cant shoot a bare shaft with a broadhead. I shoot 2 blade heads out too 25 mtrs bare shaft all the time when tuning my hunting setup. My hunting arrow is 680 grains all up with 475 grains up front and these stats just dont fit in with any of the books of old. I am not restricted by ANY preconceived notions or RULES that tradition puts on us, I test and retest finding what WORKS regarding of history. (Next time I hear "woods just seem right for a longbow" I may just explode.
Cheers KIM
















0
Cheers KIM

[Dennis La Varenne]

Kim,

I prefer woods to use with all my bows, but that is just a preference. There is not a shred of evidence anywhere that woods perform better in trad bows than other materials.

I would never suggest to anybody that woods are the only correct shaft material to use with trad bows. That was well realised back in the 1930s when Doug Easton and quite a few others started using aluminium tubing for arrows because of its consistency of performance and manufacture.

Those of us who use woods simply prefer them because of their traditionality and so long as we get decent accuracy from them, that is good enough.

For sheer consistency of performance, you cannot improve upon the modern synthetic materials. That is simply a fact of life.

However, Carbons were not invented in the traditional archery period which ended when the compound bow was invented in 1967 so genuine trad archers consider that using them is not part of the game. But, aluminium arrows most certainly were.

But anybody can use whatever they wish in any combination away from trad shoots/gatherings/forums where you are obliged play the trad game in a trad world where we are trying to preserve the useage and practices of that period of archery.

I am a dedicated traditionalist, so I want to play the game according to historically verifiable equipment and endeavour to get the very best I can from historic equipment. The reliability of my arrows is much better than my ability, so I have no issues with using them. That is what traditionalism is about.

However, if I was as capable as an Olympic level archer shooting at that level, most certainly, I would be using the very best carbons I could get. But that is a very different game.

My particular difficulty is with people who want to cross-over between the use of historical equipment and latterday modern equipment and still regard themselves as trad archers which they clearly are not. If you want to play the game, then play the game, but you can't have a foot in each camp and belong to one or the other.

You must decide which camp you want to be part of.

[kimall]

Agreed.......If I am PLAYING THE GAME shooting targets at a comp then woods can get it done better then most shooters(including me) However when I hunt I owe it to the life I am taking to do it the very best I can so use any arrow material that will get the very best performance.Wood does not even come close in this arena so I use carbon. I dont have the word craft or the time to go into what is TRAD but I dont use a date to define the term. Fine for others to do so but just not my compass on the subject. MY take is making my own gear to make food for my family not fitting in with an organisations guidelines. The next time some clown at a club that has bought a longbow from a gun shop made in Korea and a handfull of wood arrows made in china that dont even shoot from his bow tells me I am not Trad wont be the first or the last. Now I just walk away with the bow I made, shooting arrows off a string I made that are hand made from timber stock.These all kept in a hand made leather or wicker quiver made with hand made tools from my blacksmith workshop.I have said before Dennis(some years ago I know) that one day we can have a beverage of choice and discuss the merits of this obsession we share typing maqkes me tired...
Cheers KIM

[Dennis La Varenne]

You are missing the point completely Kim. You want to have your feet in both camps and still regard yourself as a traditional archer.

Whether or not you make all your gear at home means nothing if it does not conform to what has been made historically in the entire historical period from the invention of archery up until the invention of the compound bow in 1967 when they almost took over entirely from traditional bows - meaning all those bows in existence up until that year. If a person buys a bow from a gunshop which conforms to the kind of bow know to have been used in archery's traditional period, then it is not your place to say otherwise. You are just plain wrong if you do.

To then go on to say that traditional archery cannot be defined by dates is no better than to say that Tudor archery does not belong to the Tudor period of history which is delineated by specific dates from the ascension of Henry VII to the death of Elizabeth I.

That's your choice of course, but traditional archery at any time in its long history never had arrows made from carbon.

I have never had the slightest issue with humanely killing any animal with wood arrows and neither have very, very many others. That your shooting accuracy declines so much that you say you cannot shoot straight enough using woods seems to me a matter of what is in your head rather than what wood arrows are capable of.

[kimall]

You do make me laugh Dennis see I dont care if you call me traditional or not I dont need to fit a pigion hole I just do what I do.Just to be clear what would you call me.? I have both feet in MY camp not sure how many other camps that puts me in. I would also just to be clear like you to tell us how many animals you have taken with a bow and how long ago.I did not say I could not shoot straight with a wooden arrow and I have also taken game with wood arrows but only someone that is both inexperienced in there use and narrow minded would suggest that a wood arrow can match a very high foc carbon arrow for hunting performance.
Cheers KIM

[cadet]

...I dont care if you call me traditional or not I dont need to fit a pigion hole I just do what I do...

That seems to me a pretty good way to approach things; also apt for another thread that's warming up at the moment.

[Dennis La Varenne]

Dear me, Kim. Don"t be so ridiculous. You aren't really advancing your position at all.

Perhaps you should take up a bit of historical reading to inform yourself of what you don't understand. I have posted a booklist above some of whose titles you which may care to read.

By all means have both feet in your camp, but don't try to pretend to yourself or anybody else that what you do is traditional. Parts of it may be, but other parts are not.

If you cannot make up your mind or want to use whatever you find convenient, by all means go ahead. Just keep away from the pretense to traditionality. You aren't particularly intent on preserving anything of historic value greater than your own opinion.

Who said anywhere that carbon arrows won't kill animals humanely? Not me. I said that i have killed animals humanely with wood arrows. Are you somehow saying that carbon arrows kill animals more humanely dead than humanely dead using wood arrows? If so as it reads that you are, then you are contradicting your own argument in the one sentence and not making much sense. Your personal experience is just that - personal experience. It has no greater or less value than that of anybody else, and just because yours may differ in some respects does not mean that yours is better. That is an arrogance you should be careful of.

You are not doing yourself any favours with that line of argument.

[kimall]

OK so I have no interest in advancing a position.
I have no interest in reading a lot of books of history.(it has no importance in my thinking)
I dont care if I am not tradtional in your or others eyes.
I AM intent on the craft of making and using the archery equipment I have.This is not opinion(which is like an *%$ hole because everyone has one) because I DO it.
Now on the last point you make you really do show how naive you are on hunting because regardless of shaft material a ultra high FOC arrow makes a better hunting arrow, this is achieved by using a carbon shaft. I do not contradict myself mate I have killed with wood arrows but now see the advantage of carbon arrows. Yes dead is dead but unlike the opinions of people of little real life hunting experience(like maybe yourself) not all shots are perfect and the added penetration of a high FOC arrow may make the difference between a lost animal and a humanely recovered animal.
I must add you said before I miss the point but when I have gone to the shoots around the country and shared a fire with the archers or Australia the feedback I have got is that perhaps you should spend more time having a shot with others and less time reading books if you want an idea of what TRADITIONAL ARCHERY is in this country.
Cheers KIM

[bstan86]

Kim - I have to agree with you on ALL points mate.
Plenty of times I have seen first-hand, "experienced" archers dismiss my high FOC arrows as they are "wrong" in their eyes, and that 125gr points are the "correct weight for field arrows". Then their's the classic deflex-reflex bow debates.....




It is easy for some to get caught up in their own world of ideals and dismiss all else as foolish and wrong, despite having little or no direct experience of what they may expunge. It is a shame - as it leads to pointless arguments that can seem similar to watching a dog chase it's own tail.

Ammusing for some, but largely pointless.

[bstan86]

This whole notion that "traditionality" in archery MUST be preserved seems pretty pointless to me.
People will continue to practice archery however they see fit. If they choose to they can mold themselves into a good little "proper" trad archer and conform to what others say is right.

Or they may choose to do it their way.

Regardless, none of this will change the history of archery in Australia, and none of it will erase this "precious" history.

Your personal experience is just that - personal experience. It has no greater or less value than that of anybody else, and just because yours may differ in some respects does not mean that yours is better..

I disagree. If I want to hear about gear for hunting for example, I will listen much more closely to someone who has killed lots and lots of game with a bow, and give their personal experience more credibility than someone who's shot a couple of goats and a young sow.

[bstan86]

Perhaps you should take up a bit of historical reading to inform yourself of what you don't understand. I have posted a booklist above some of whose titles you which may care to read. .

If he did read all the same books that you have then I suppose he'd be as much of an authority on everything trad as you are Dennis?


Kim knows a great deal about his bows and gear through detailed shooting and testing. He actually gets out there and does it in real life.

If he ever learns to read, he may even consider some of those books one day...




Knowing Kim though - I'd say he'd probably just keep making bows and arrows, and expanding his VERY practical knowledge of them. On top of that he'll likely be shooting them a lot and killing spme game with them.

[Kendaric]

Now on the last point you make you really do show how naive you are on hunting because regardless of shaft material a ultra high FOC arrow makes a better hunting arrow, this is achieved by using a carbon shaft. I do not contradict myself mate I have killed with wood arrows but now see the advantage of carbon arrows. Yes dead is dead but unlike the opinions of people of little real life hunting experience(like maybe yourself) not all shots are perfect and the added penetration of a high FOC arrow may make the difference between a lost animal and a humanely recovered animal.

Sorry, but who is debating FOC arrows. 125gr is just a good starting point, and a basis of some arrow charts. But these same charts also indicate that as in increase point weight, you also need to increase spine to compensate. Jeff used much heavier broadhead weights than 125gr, but also compensated with a stiffer arrow. No one is disagreeing that a high FOC will give you greater penetration. Matching the spine on a timber or carbon arrow to suit, is easy to do, and when done correctly will give you correct archers paradox.

If you are hunting with carbon arrows, for what ever moral (and for some, an economical reason, as you can pick up dirt cheap ready made carbons from ebay/aliexpress from china for like $2 per arrow [ and some trad shooters are notoriously cheap, which is why they particularly like trad, as you don't need to spend great amounts of money to be on-par with other shooters] reason, that is great - but has little bearing on the bare shaft tuning results that Dennis was going to publish from his experience.

Truth be told, a good get of well match, well mantained timber arrows, are just as effective accuracy wise, at taking game, at the appropriate distances that a trad shooter should be shooting at, as carbon arrows, considering the equipment used, and the fact that you are shooting barebow without sights, that is not a compound. A good shooter can shoot both equally as well.

[Kendaric]

Then their's the classic deflex-reflex bow debates.....

What debate? No one argues that a deflex-reflex bow exists and has done for some time. Simply the modern deflex-reflex longbow of today, was the semi recurve of mid 20th century. All that has changed is the terminology to suit marketing hype.

[Kendaric]

Next time I hear "woods just seem right for a longbow" I may just explode.

to explode:

Why get upset about this - the words are 'just seem right' is simply an emotion response to a feeling which is subjective to the individual, and has no real right or wrong.

I have done both, and can say that for some, shooting timbers out of a longbow is like making love to a beautiful passionate woman, compared to carbons, which is like self gratification only. Both get you there in end, but one is more deep and meaningful than the other (depending on where your passions lay).

[Kendaric]

This whole notion that "traditionality" in archery MUST be preserved seems pretty pointless to me.

That being the case, what are you doing on a dedicated Trad forum?

[bstan86]

This whole notion that "traditionality" in archery MUST be preserved seems pretty pointless to me.

That being the case, what are you doing on a dedicated Trad forum?

What am I doing here?

1- Popping in every now and then to see if anyone has posted something interesting, or a hunt report.
2- occasionally making the mistake of getting involved in some pretty retarded arguments about things that aren't important to me in the scheme of things.

[kimall]

WOW.....red cordial I guess.