Having a B**ch

[clinglish]

Ok So I am Going to have a bit of a whine and complain.
I have not been shooting my bows for a while until recently.
I was just looking at a post relating to a Trad shoot in my region that I thought I might attend.
I looked at the flier and then the website and thought I would check the equipment provisions to see which group my Trad bows are in.
This wasn't a worry until I noticed that
CARBON ARROWS ARE NOT CONSIDERED TRADITIONAL.
(Removed)

As I Shoot carbons exclusively and I cant see how they are excluded yet you can have laminated bows with carbon fibre in them or a recurve cut out on a CNC machine and designed on CAD that is more glue than wood.

Well that's my complaining done Say what you like.
I wont be attending .

[Ronster]

Clinglish, You don't have to abuse people because of their preference. If you don't like the rules just don't go.

I shoot several types of bows with Woods, carbon and alloy arrows, but attend the shoots that I choose, depending upon my preferences.

Ronster

[clinglish]

The reason for the post was to rant, I had not specified anyone in particular and I felt my point was valid. Why should I be excluded from an event because I shoot carbons there are category's for different bow types why not just have a open trad class to enable those in the community who use Ali or carbons.

[Ronster]

What is so special about you, that a club needs to change their rules. They do all the hard work to put a shoot together and it is their right to make whatever rules they like.

So again If you don't like the rules don't go. Go to the many clubs that let you shoot what you like.

Ronster

[cmoore]

I'm with you on that one clinglish!, in my opinion there should be two categories of traditional

Traditional Style: which would include laminated 'traditional' bows/arrows incorporating modern materials
Traditional: all true traditional equipment, no modern materials

[clinglish]

Ronster, couple of points
Firstly I wasn't attacking you or the club I was having a go at the absurdity of a rule that limits 1 component of equiptment but is open and accomodating to all others.
Also there is only a couple of clubs in my region.
And I am as entitled to my opinion as anyone else and it was just MY opinion
I thought that was clear from the outset I wasn't after approval just getting it off my chest

[GrahameA]

Morning.

I am with Ron.

The topic of Trad Rules come around every six months and there is a wide range of opinions. However, there is an extreme lack of people willing to put in the work to get a consensus.

[Chris]

So why limit what arrows you can shoot.
I bet all the trad bows use modern glues and materials.
What is trad anyway, I bet none of the wood arrows you shoot you cut yourself or whittled yourself.

"you cant shoot thous arrows, there too modern"
Stupidity if you ask me

[clinglish]

Morning.

I am with Ron.

The topic of Trad Rules come around every six months and there is a wide range of opinions. However, there is an extreme lack of people willing to put in the work to get a consensus.

There be the nub of the discussion. RULES
Why isn't there an open trad class where you come and shoot and no score is kept. I understand the requirement for safety but I feel that there is to much emphasis on the competitive nature of a shoot.
Last time I attended a similar shoot I was chatted that my arrows weren't all the same length. There was 3omm max difference between the longest and shortest.
When I question why did it matter I was told that if I beat someone they could challenge because I could have had an advantage.
My response was "If they want to win that bad they could have it" I was there to socialise.
If you want a consensus then CMoore hit the nail on the head with a Traditional Style class.

[DavidM]

Hi Clingish

If you’re every in Melbourne for the Lilydale trad shoot your more than welcome to join in, we have a modern traditional class so cater for ALL traditional classes.

[matt61]

At my archery club with invitational shoots, we go out of our way to be inclusive and live by a very simple motto.... bums on seats equals bikkys in the tin. And with more bikkys in tin we can buy flasher toys to play with next time we have a get together.

You exclude, you lose.
Matt

[Kendaric]

There be the nub of the discussion. RULES
Why isn't there an open trad class where you come and shoot and no score is kept.

You can do that at current Trad events. Generally they wont stop you from shooting in the event, its just that they wont include your scores, if your equipment doesn't comply with the rules of their event. Hence no need for an open class.

Despite all the variations of equipment found at a Trad event, at least one base line factor is that they all shoot timber arrows. It is a great equalizer.

What is trad anyway, I bet none of the wood arrows you shoot you cut yourself or whittled yourself.

Many do, and most can if they put their mind to it. Not so with a carbon.

Last time I attended a similar shoot I was chatted that my arrows weren't all the same length. There was 3omm max difference between the longest and shortest.
When I question why did it matter

It matters, because some gap or point of aim shooters could use different length arrows for different distances to get an aiming or cast advantage.

And despite the idea that perhaps people are just being too competitive, but as a generalisation, some people will bend the shoot rules, skirt around the equipment rules or just cheat outright to win an event or gain an advantage. No one enjoys that, social event or not.

[GrahameA]

Morning All.

This is my take.

This topic has been discussed at length multiple times. Search the threads for what has been said in the past.

If people want to change 'The Rules' the only thing stopping them is their lack of willingness to put in the effort to get other people to agree.

I suggest you come to grips why they are the way they are before before you tear down or build new fences.

[sina55]

Hi Clinglish

I see you are in Perth. I would be very interested to know which club is running trad shoots in the west. Feel free to pm me.

Gary

[little arrows]

Hey Gary,
I've send you an email with the flyer attached.
cheers
sue

[Steve]

I have to say I agree with the OP on this one. Wood arrows only is a little laughable when you consider modern laminated bows. I get the intent but to not count scores is absurd. An open class is simple to implement and would encourage more people to participate. Isn't that what we want after all?

[perry]

I know better than to wade into discussions like this I apologise up front for my long winded contribution.

First up - Traditional Archery Equipment throughout the ages has always reflected Mankind's State of the Art in Technology. Even Modern Compounds owe many of their mechanical advantages to Bow Technology first developed thousands of years ago - ie Vertical Limb Travel from Asiatic Composite Recurve's.

A Knapped Stone Arrow Head or a Broadhead with a Stainless Steel Alloy Blade and Titanium Ferrell do essentially the same Job but illustrate my point. Doug Easton's Aluminium Arrows where in use in the mid 1920's. Eastons 1920's Alloy is vastly inferior to Easton Aluminium Arrows of today. This leads me to the first contradiction in Traditional Archery that really made me think. Why do so many Archers today regard Unidirectional Fibreglass as 100% Traditional and Aluminium as not Traditional despite the development of the Aluminium Arrow decades beforehand.

Many say to me that Alloy Arrows could be considered Trad if we still used the same Aluminium Alloy that Easton first used. Yet they do not apply the same logic to Fibreglass technology. Unidirectional Fibreglass of today is a huge advancement on what Fred Bear first developed. As a side note Saunders first marketed the Plastic Nock in the late 1940's, again pre Fibreglass.

In the 1930's Science weighed into developing the most efficient Bow design possible with the materials at hand - enter the American Flat Bow also separate Bows where developed with what some regard as the emergence of the modern Recurve Limb. Bow Construction was still from Timber with pre-stressed Silk Backings. Funny how these scientific studies resulted in a near mirror image of a Bow that had seen use throughout the Ages in different cultures around the world. Nothing new about working Recurve's either.

Bring on the 1950's and the technological advancements brought about by WW2 and Motor Vehicle manufacture come to the fore through Fred Bear and the development of Unidirectional Fibreglas.

Some Years ago there was no thought of uniform Rules and definitions from Trad Shoot to Trad Shoot around the Country [ read East Coast]. Greybeard, Grahame Aimee and I put ourselves out there and after many productive and not so productive sessions in private and on this Forum talking to all that wanted to contribute we managed to put some Rules and Definitions to Paper. We drafted what has turned out to be a controversial set of Guidlines at what defines Trad Gear, they have fallen by the wayside but aspects still influence what goes on today at Trad Shoot's. ABA applied some of this to their Modern Traditional Division.

Now days Traditional Archery Australia has come to the fore and is doing a great job with the introduction of their Traditional Archery Shoot Guidelines.

Personally I favour a pre 1900 and a Post 1900 Trad Gear seperation as I think this best separates the huge advances in the technology of Modern Traditional Archery. To my mind the root of this discussion is that technology has gone ahead in leaps and bounds especially the last 30 years and people are looking to draw a line in the Sand to keep things simpler to define. It is the contradictions that stem from this line in the Sand that cause the division.

Despite what I have said above I believe that Carbon Arrows are well catered for in separate Divisions in ABA and 3DAAA. Trad Shoots are quite separate from the Competitions that 3DAAA and ABA have. Their only role in Trad Shoots is they as governing bodies sanction the events as most Clubs are affiliated with the Governing bodies.

I own ILF Bows and Carbon Arrows. I love shooting this Equipment but Selfbows and Timber Arrows are what really floats my Boat. I have been interested in Asian Archery this last 5 years also. In the past when I have used my ILF Gear at a Trad Shoot I simply entered in a non competitive capacity. I also think that if a Club forbids an Archer to PARTICIPATE in their Trad Shoot at a NON COMPETITIVE level with ILF Gear they are out of line. It is a win win situation if an individual turns up to a Trad Shoot and the Club politely and respectfully explains to the individual they are welcome to Shoot but in a non competitive capacity. Equally should this individual wished to play the Traditional Archery Game as defined by the Clubs Rules of Shoot as a Competitor they need to comply with the Rules at that Shoot.

So to sum my dribble up Clubs need to offer a Non Competitive Division. With this compromise both sides win. It is wrong to deny an Archer the opportunity to enjoy the atmosphere and Friendship that we all go to a Trad Shoot to enjoy. Its how Traditional Archery will continue to grow. The Archer with Carbon Arrows or what ever the none compliant Tackle is may even come across and buy or make themselves the required Gear. I know plenty of Folks who own both sets of Tackle who play all disciplines on offer in Australia

[GrahameA]

Morning All.

5 months -- almost 6.. yep about due. Having seen this subject raised a few times I might try a different approach in a reply.

... An open class is simple to implement and would encourage more people to participate. ...

Is it? Why have you, not someone else, not done it? Would it encourage more? What evidence do you have? Evidence not opinion.

... Isn't that what we want after all?

Is it? I do not know what 'whoever' wants and I doubt that few, very few, if any do. The best there is to look at events and measure their attendance if they have the numbers and have tracked it over a few years.

If someone was really keen, mad in the head, they could develop a survey and measure and track the 'satisfaction levels' of events.

If people read Perry's preceding post and better still read the plethora of posts on this topic over the years they may get the opinion that things are neither as simple or easy as they believe.

[Steve]

Grahame. Bravo. You have in one condescending post managed to highlight why people like myself have no time for clubs and people like yourself. You may have a post count of 4500+ and be deeply involved in your club. Good for you. Seems archers are even more snobbish and divided than rifle clubs. Good to know. I'll find a nice independent club and shoot there. I'll focus on hunting as I find the company better. Oh and I'll just sit in the corner and keep my opinions to myself. Heaven forbid I upset you.

[GrahameA]

Afternoon.

... Oh and I'll just sit in the corner and keep my opinions to myself. Heaven forbid I upset you.

That will achieve nothing.

The simple reality with all of this is that there is an expectation that someone should/will do it. If 'people' do not like the way things are then they should change them .. not expect someone else to. You do not need to convincd me about changes you need to convince the people who run the events.

[cadet]

Hmm...
I've only come to archery and bowyering fairly recently, but have been a shooter for many years; I'm guessing that there's some similarities and overlap between shooters and archers. I long ago found that most club shooting - especially competitive, with sometimes petty restrictions and regulations and even pettier competitors and officials making and enforcing them - wasn't something I generally enjoyed, not that I wasn't plenty capable in some types of marksmanship - but the fun was killed off. I did, however, find a handful of clubs - like vintagers, and a local collectors club - whose interest and enthusiasm was social and non-scored rather than competitive, and who were appreciative of the craftsmanship, history etc of the kind of arms I liked, and have really enjoyed my involvement with them - ie their interests and mine lined up - but have also found deep satisfaction going it alone sometimes and doing things that few others do. My guess is that archers and archery may be similar, in that there are just about as many ways to do it and enjoy it as there are people doing it and enjoying it - you just have to find the way you enjoy doing it, and seek the company of those who enjoy doing it in a similar way, or do it alone, the way you want, and ignore those who don't appreciate what you do and enjoy.
I suspect, while I might learn something useful from it if I had a go, I wouldn't really like competitive archery and archers; not sure if I'm missing out on something having not tried it though. I'd probably enjoy social, non-scored archery and the company of people who get a buzz from making their own gear.

[GrahameA]

Morning.

Yeah Grahame the 6 month itch.

Yep. Irrespective what is written/proposed/complained about there is an extremely small chance of anything being done.

I have been a member of this forum for over 10 years. I have seen Trad events grow. I have seen large amounts of words written about Rules, a common set of Rules, etc. The number of people willing to stand up, put something together, put it out there for criticism (lots and lots of criticism why it is wrong not so much on how to resolve to the satisfaction of many) and debate, discuss, defend and modify it when someone presented a solid, well reasoned argument for or against and see it through to a conclusion is extremely low in number. (Have a look at Perry's comment.)

The bad news is that history is lost - it died in a server crash.

The good news is that someone will come along questioning things in another 6 months or so keeping it alive. Situation Normal.

[BowmanBjorn]

i can jump in on this.

i made almost exactly the same comments about a year ago (maybe less) i shoot range of different bows and i prefer carbon arrows.

so i raised the idea of a simplified set of rules that were more inclusive i even went as far as to start a discussion about what members wanted in a set of rules and it ended up back at the start where those who are ultra competitive want the rules to eb tighter and those like myself who just enjoy shooting wanted a more inclusive set. it didn't go anywhere.

HOWEVER i DID start these rules in my club in north Queensland and we have seen attendance increase steeply with cable gun shooters seeing the light and picking up a trad bow and children and parents joining our ranks so it works. it isn't for everyone though.

there is an existing set of guidelines out there which work for the majority of shooters. and clubs like Hunter Valley regularly have 100 plus shooters at an event and they have quite strict rules.

i learned that i shoot what i shoot where i'm allowed to shoot it. would i like to see rules amended? sure, but we need to pull our fingers out to do it. not expect the powers that be to do it for us. its our sport, our responsibility.

so i shoot a fan dangled reflex reflex bow with carbon arrows when i hunt and shoot at my club and i shoot a longbow with wood arrows when i head down to the hunter valley or tully traditional shoots. at the end f the day i have fun at both and truth be told the "unknown" of timber arrows certainly makes shooting more entertaining.

DD

[Kendaric]

To reiterate:

There be the nub of the discussion. RULES
Why isn't there an open trad class where you come and shoot and no score is kept.

You can do that at current Trad events. Generally they wont stop you from shooting in the event, its just that they wont include your scores, if your equipment doesn't comply with the rules of their event. Hence no need for an open class.

ABA will let you shot carbons if you want to score such. TAA is for timber arrows. You have to draw the line somewhere, other-wise Trad just becomes another ABA with everyone's personal foible catered for.

For some it could be likened to saying "well I should be able to drive my Formula One in a Stock Car race, as both have wheels and are made from modern materials!"

[GrahameA]

Morning.

... i made almost exactly the same comments about a year ago (maybe less) i shoot range of different bows and i prefer carbon arrows.

so i raised the idea of a simplified set of rules that were more inclusive ...

i learned that i shoot what i shoot where i'm allowed to shoot it. would i like to see rules amended? sure, but we need to pull our fingers out to do it. not expect the powers that be to do it for us. its our sport, our responsibility.

From my POV it was a great exercise for you in that you have a group of people shooting and enjoying 'Trad'. Plus you have real experience of the issues. (It is worse than herding cats.)

A small related aside. There is a small group of people, in my club, who want to shoot/try/experience 'Traditional'. So occasionaly we have some comp' and shoot to our rules. They can be expressed as follows.
Two divisions, Trad and everything else. There are no classes/seperation by sex, age, bow type, etc. You must be touching the peg
Trad
no Compounds,
Wood Arrows, Feathers,
no sights, stabilisers, etc.
Non-Trad aka everything else. Get to shoot longer distances and avoid the vegetation.

[clinglish]

From my POV it was a great exercise for you in that you have a group of people shooting and enjoying 'Trad'. Plus you have real experience of the issues. (It is worse than herding cats.)

A small related aside. There is a small group of people, in my club, who want to shoot/try/experience 'Traditional'. So occasionaly we have some comp' and shoot to our rules. They can be expressed as follows.
Two divisions, Trad and everything else. There are no classes/seperation by sex, age, bow type, etc. You must be touching the peg
Trad
no Compounds,
Wood Arrows, Feathers,
no sights, stabilisers, etc.
Non-Trad aka everything else. Get to shoot longer distances and avoid the vegetation.[/quote]

Ok , I didn't think this thread would be still going, but since it is...
The expression "It's worse than herding cats" is used a lot where I work, and in my opinion, the issue with it is , Those I have met in my time in archery, Tend to be independent in nature and like cats it is easier to entice them than to try to herd them.
Traditional archery is not as black and white as whether a bow has wheels or not. it has shades that vary from sinew backed self bows and river cane arrows with fire hardened tips to the latest computer designed bow from materials utilised by NASA carbon arrows and plastic fletching.
All of them still fit under the broad definition of traditional and this is why I felt that to Draw a line under one particular type of arrow material wasn't justified.
AT no time did I question the integrity or the fail to recognise the hard work done by those who volunteer their time to organise these events. My main point was that by not being inclusive of all the variations then the group is weaker for it.
We are presented daily with attacks from all quarters about the choices we make to shoot and hunt and fish as our predecessors did, theirs was out of necessity not recreation. But to segment ourselves voluntarily does the work of these anti groups, whether that is the intent or not.
Each State is different in it legislation and attitudes towards these pursuits, and in WA we have seen more than one attempt to restrict and control our passion so perhaps it is this that makes me more wary of Rules for many drawn up by a select few.

[Axe]

Grahame. Bravo. You have in one condescending post managed to highlight why people like myself have no time for clubs and people like yourself..

Well said Steve, I agree whole heartedly and couldn't have said it better myself

[Ronster]

I was not going to comment again, but cant help it.

A club and its members who volunteer their hard work and time, make the rules of a shoot.
If you like the rules, then go enjoy yourselves. If you don't like the rules DON'T GO.

I attend between 6-8 different Trad shoots a year, where there are between 70-100+ archers having a great time just getting together for a full weekend of fun without the need to argue this point over and over.

Please enjoy your own style and needs that you all have, but leave the Trad scene alone.
It aint broke and it don't need fixing.


Ronster

[GrahameA]

Morning All.

... A club and its members who volunteer their hard work and time, make the rules of a shoot.
If you like the rules, then go enjoy yourselves. If you don't like the rules DON'T GO. ... but leave the Trad scene alone.
It aint broke and it don't need fixing.

I agree.

If someone wants to do/shoot something else try ABA/FITA/IFAA/3DAAA/SCA organised competition or get some similar people and go independent and do their own thing.

[clinglish]

Graham A and Ronster, I believe that you may still be missing the point so I will simplify it for you.

The comments where in no way aimed at the makers of the Rules, They where not a call to not have rules
I was attempting to highlight that it is divisive to draw the so called line in the sand under 1 particular component of equipment that seems some what petty and to most not justifiable.
To say you attend so many shoots a year and there are other people there in no way negates my argument but instead have you considered that there would be many more people at these shoots if the rules where inclusive. You both seem to believe that the rule makers are infallible simply because they volunteer their time to make the rules. That is a flawed argument. If all those that had the time to give sat in the room where carbon arrow users and they decreed that only carbons would be acceptable I am sure you and yours would rail against it as unjust and unnecessary.
This short sighted and non inclusive nature has seen the destruction of many clubs and even websites, this further fragments us making it easier for the opposition to focus on the smaller groups and pick them off. If you disagree then go talk to someone who was passionate about shooting crossbows.
This may not seem like a big thing when you have 3 or 4 archery clubs within a short distance from you but if you have limited access and those in charge make it clear that you aren't welcome because your arrows are wrong, Or worse still, its your very first Trad archery event and the gear that you bought excludes you from being involved.
How petty can you really get