Bows that are Trad for comps / events

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Ian Turner
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Bows that are Trad for comps / events

#1 Post by Ian Turner » Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:02 pm

Whilst we are all interested in the discussion of bow types and definitions and classifications are bows with metal risers such as the Hoyt Buffalo (which is shot off the shelf) , Gamegetter 2, The various Bear metal riser bows and the Martin Jaguar, Panther etc do they qualify for use in our trad shoots as long as wood arrows are shot from them?
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Re: Bows that are Trad for comps / events

#2 Post by BowmanBjorn » Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:16 pm

its not clear cut at the moment Ian,

thats much of the discussion as Trad shoots are undertaken by different governing bodies and clubs with different rules some clubs will allow these in the recurve class and others won't.

its just a matter of knowing the rules from the club you wish to shoot at.
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Re: Bows that are Trad for comps / events

#3 Post by DavidM » Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:02 am

Dare I say it 8)

Are steel bow trad?

V. R. Dikshitar, in his book, says that "steel was the new invention and the old things were cast aside for the new". He is probably referring to the Mughal period, when the steel bow was widely used. J. S. Lee, in his article dealing with steel bows, observes that the composite bow went out of favour about Shah Jehan's time (A.D. 1650). The Mughal period began circa A.D. 1526, so that this period seems to be a transitional one from composite to steel.
Bows and arrows of India. J.S. Lee, Journal of the Society of Archer-Antiquaries, Vol. 2 (1959), page 46.

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Re: Bows that are Trad for comps / events

#4 Post by greybeard » Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:06 pm

DavidM wrote:Dare I say it 8)

Are steel bow trad?........
This article was first published in the Journal of the Society of Archer-Antiquaries, volume 12, 1969.

Extract;
“There is a fair amount of evidence that they were extensively used in warfare. Indeed they would be of little use for anything else, not having the cast and range for the hunt or for sport.
Several of the Mughal miniature paintings show mounted archers in battle scenes using this bow, and there is a long tapestry in the Victoria and Albert Museum in London which also shows it in use.”

Is a military weapon considered trad? is the English warbow considered trad?

The jewel encrusted gold leaf steel bow was probably more of a dress accessory rather than a bow for warfare, hunting or social archery events.

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Re: Bows that are Trad for comps / events

#5 Post by Ronster » Thu Nov 19, 2015 4:27 pm

My view has always been that the club that puts on a shoot, makes the effort to give archers a great weekend and as such we should be happy to shoot following their rules.
The shoot maybe Trad, ABA, 3DAAA or whatever, then it is a matter of choice for the archer to attend or not.

Their club their comp their rules (IMHO)

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Re: Bows that are Trad for comps / events

#6 Post by Kendaric » Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:08 pm

Ian Turner wrote:Whilst we are all interested in the discussion of bow types and definitions and classifications are bows with metal risers such as the Hoyt Buffalo (which is shot off the shelf) , Gamegetter 2, The various Bear metal riser bows and the Martin Jaguar, Panther etc do they qualify for use in our trad shoots as long as wood arrows are shot from them?
Cheers
At the 'trad events' I attended, all these bows appeared to be fine if you use a non mechanical rest.

Whilst I may well be mistaken, I had the impression that the metal riser recurve did occur prior to the compound, but I could be wrong. There could be some conjecture about fully adjustable limb pockets, but that could depend on the event hosts.

The TAA's description of a recurve, allowing a pressure button, is seen as a surprise to most, you will need to see if the trad event you are attending will allow it. Trad events are not necessarily run by TAA guidelines. By what I have seen at most Trad Events is anything goes, so you should be right.
Last edited by Kendaric on Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:43 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Bows that are Trad for comps / events

#7 Post by Ian Turner » Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:48 pm

Hi mate yeah the Hoyt Buffalo does not have provision for a rest or button its strictly shoot off the shelf so i figure it should be ok with wood arrows.
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Re: Bows that are Trad for comps / events

#8 Post by GrahameA » Fri Nov 20, 2015 7:10 am

Morning.

Just talking about rests.

From the rule set that are generally used around SE Qld
1.2 MODERN LONGBOW DIVISION.
...
• The bow can be shot off the shelf or from an elevated rest adhered to the sight window.
...

1.3 MODERN RECURVE DIVISION.

...
• The bow can be shot off the shelf or from an elevated arrow rest adhered to the sight window.
...
Kendaric wrote:... At 'trad events' all these bows are fine if you use a non mechanical rest.

What is a mechanical rest and why could you not use if it was adhered to the sight window?

Copy of the Rule set attached.
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Traditional Shoot Rules.doc
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Re: Bows that are Trad for comps / events

#9 Post by GrahameA » Fri Nov 20, 2015 7:17 am

Morning.
Kendaric wrote: Trad events are not necessarily run by TAA guidelines. By what I have seen at most Trad Events is 'anything goes', so you should be right.
Many events do not use TAA Guidelines (and that makes life much easier for them). Equally events are not anything goes, my experience is one of people complying with the rules even to there own detriment. Some people elect to step outside the rules and elect to not submit a Scoresheet
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Re: Bows that are Trad for comps / events

#10 Post by Kendaric » Fri Nov 20, 2015 7:31 am

GrahameA wrote:Morning.
Kendaric wrote: Trad events are not necessarily run by TAA guidelines. By what I have seen at most Trad Events is 'anything goes', so you should be right.
Many events do not use TAA Guidelines (and that makes life much easier for them). Equally events are not anything goes, my experience is one of people complying with the rules even to there own detriment. Some people elect to step outside the rules and elect to not submit a Scoresheet
Your probably right. I was going to delete that statement, as it was perhaps a little harsh, but you already replied to it, so I couldn't.

What Trad Rules were they that you attached?

As to what is a mechanical rest, I assume it means one that is drop away or spring assisted, or at least that was my understanding - whilst not actually mentioned per say, and which I believe may have included a pressure button.

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Re: Bows that are Trad for comps / events

#11 Post by GrahameA » Fri Nov 20, 2015 7:43 am

Morning again.
Kendaric wrote:What Trad Rules were they that you attached?
They are the ones that were nutted out on this site a few years ago, with significant discussion I add, and agreed to by those who decided to contribute.

They are the ones that most Trad events in SEQ use.
Kendaric wrote: As to what is a mechanical rest, I assume it means one that is drop away or spring assisted, or at least that was my understanding - whilst not actually mentioned per say, and which I believe may have included a pressure button.
That is a problem. If you have to make an assumption there is something missing. I would suggest if people cannot define/state it then leave it out.
Last edited by GrahameA on Fri Nov 20, 2015 8:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Bows that are Trad for comps / events

#12 Post by Kendaric » Fri Nov 20, 2015 7:54 am

GrahameA wrote:That is a problem. If you have to make and assumption there is something missing. I would suggest if people cannot define/state it then leave it out.
You may well be right, it was just a general guideline I had heard at some of the events I attended. It seemed pretty self explanatory. I think I had even seen it on a trad event flyer at some stage.

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Re: Bows that are Trad for comps / events

#13 Post by GrahameA » Fri Nov 20, 2015 7:59 am

Hi again
Kendaric wrote:... it was just a general guideline I had heard at some of the events I attended. It seemed pretty self explanatory. I think I had even seen it on a trad event flyer at some stage.
Experience suggests that looking at the actual rules and getting a Judges/Officials interpretation, irrespective of what the event/sport/whatever is, is a much wiser choice than listening to hearsay.
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Re: Bows that are Trad for comps / events

#14 Post by Kendaric » Fri Nov 20, 2015 8:39 am

GrahameA wrote:They are the ones that were nutted out on this site a few years ago, with significant discussion I add, and agreed to by those who decided to contribute.

They are the ones that most Trad events in SEQ use.
Fair enough - the reference to the word 'modern' threw me.

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Re: Bows that are Trad for comps / events

#15 Post by Ronster » Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:05 pm

Hi mate yeah the Hoyt Buffalo does not have provision for a rest or button its strictly shoot off the shelf so i figure it should be ok with wood arrows.
Hi all, The Hoyt Buffalo is a modern recurve that the limbs can be adjusted for tiller, weight and also alignment, and as such would not be seen as a Trad bow at most Trad events in SE QLD.

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Last edited by Ronster on Fri Nov 20, 2015 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I would love to be an expert, but experience and lack of knowledge holds me back!

Bows:-
Raven Vanquish 62" TD Recurve 44# @ 28"
Beaver 64" Longbow 41# @ 27"
Bear Montana 64" Longbow 50# @ 28"
Win & Win Winact ILF Riser and Win & Win Pro accent ILF carbon foam limbs 48# @ 28"

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Re: Bows that are Trad for comps / events

#16 Post by little arrows » Fri Nov 20, 2015 8:10 pm

excuse the interruption - Kendaric - I think you'll find pressure buttons are not permitted on recurves (in Trad).

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Re: Bows that are Trad for comps / events

#17 Post by Kendaric » Sat Nov 21, 2015 5:41 am

little arrows wrote:excuse the interruption - Kendaric - I think you'll find pressure buttons are not permitted on recurves (in Trad).
Yes, that is what I thought. It came as a surprise to see that the TAA guidelines included it.

You would know better than I, would the Hoyt Buffalo, if it were being shot off the shelf or using a non mechanical rest, be recognised at a trad event?

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Re: Bows that are Trad for comps / events

#18 Post by Ian Turner » Sat Nov 21, 2015 12:30 pm

Ronster the limb alignment cannot be adjusted on a buffalo, weight can be adjusted by 2# in 40# ie 5%, and tiller can be adjusted.
It can only be shot off the shelf.
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Re: Bows that are Trad for comps / events

#19 Post by Ronster » Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:48 pm

Hi Ian, the Buffalo has been knocked back at previous Trad shoots because of its limb adjustments. At a recent Trad shoot a mate of mine was allowed to shoot his buffalo but his score was not allowed. That is the reason for my comments.

PS: you are right about the limb alignment, should have been advanced paralever limb fitting.

Regards, Ronster
I would love to be an expert, but experience and lack of knowledge holds me back!

Bows:-
Raven Vanquish 62" TD Recurve 44# @ 28"
Beaver 64" Longbow 41# @ 27"
Bear Montana 64" Longbow 50# @ 28"
Win & Win Winact ILF Riser and Win & Win Pro accent ILF carbon foam limbs 48# @ 28"

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Re: Bows that are Trad for comps / events

#20 Post by Ian Turner » Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:10 pm

Hi all ok if the buffalo is disallowed due to adjustable tiller how about a Martin Jaguar where it is a metal riser but you can not adjust alignment tiller weight etc but it will have a simple plastic rest; no pressure buttons etc would that be ok.
As a by the by i remember 2 years ago at WF annual trad comp there was a guy there competing with a bear metal riser TD shooting off a rest; a simple on and also a couple of wood risered bows that had elevated plastic rests again simple ones.
So would a Martin Jag be OK?
The rest would not be adhered to the sight window but to a plate that would be on a screw in "thing" as the riser is cur past centre.
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Re: Bows that are Trad for comps / events

#21 Post by GrahameA » Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:25 am

Morning.
Ian Turner wrote:... As a by the by i remember 2 years ago at WF annual trad comp there was a guy there competing with a bear metal riser TD shooting off a rest; a simple on and also a couple of wood risered bows that had elevated plastic rests again simple ones.
So would a Martin Jag be OK? ...
All the Trad events have there own rules a few run to a common set to make things easier. If you mean Wiseman's Ferry than I suggest you contact Rob for a copy of the Rule Set he is using.

Some years ago Rob was using the same set of rules as those used in SEQ. That may still not be the case.
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Re: Bows that are Trad for comps / events

#22 Post by Ronster » Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:29 pm

Hi Ian, The martin jaguar has been allowed at trad events in the past. Metal riser is ok. The limbs are standard bolt on and there is no adjustment of the limbs. My wife shot a Martin Jaguar TD Recurve at Trad events a few years back. with full knowledge of the events organisers.

Sue Wallace would IMO, be the best person to ask about Bow eligibility for Trad events in SE Qld, however as mentioned before look to the clubs rules when they put on open or Trad shoots.

PS I made a rest that bolted to the bow bringing it just before center and was non adjustable.

Ronster
I would love to be an expert, but experience and lack of knowledge holds me back!

Bows:-
Raven Vanquish 62" TD Recurve 44# @ 28"
Beaver 64" Longbow 41# @ 27"
Bear Montana 64" Longbow 50# @ 28"
Win & Win Winact ILF Riser and Win & Win Pro accent ILF carbon foam limbs 48# @ 28"

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Re: Bows that are Trad for comps / events

#23 Post by Ian Turner » Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:49 am

Hi Ron thanks for that.
I was thinking that at the next shoot at Wisemans Ferry in March; that with all my injuries etc and i have just hurt my drawing had again if my 40# wood risered bow got to hard i was hoping to resort to putting my 35# limbs on my Jaguar and a plate with a stick on rest and use that as i so love that shoot and i missed out last year as my back went the day i was due to leave home (i usually like to stay from the wednesday on).
With torn tendons etc i have now dropped my bow weights significanly but i can still shoot a bow (thank god) anyway enough of my whinging (well i am a pom)
Cheers
Ian

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Re: Bows that are Trad for comps / events

#24 Post by Ronster » Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:48 pm

Hi Ian, the Martin Jaguar was a good bow and very good value for money.

There are and have been a lot of discussions about what is or is not Trad, but my view is to check the rules for the club putting on the shoots and if in doubt send them an email or call them to clarify any issues. That way you can choose to attend the shoot or not.
About 4 years ago I had a trad bow (Samick Squall) riser de-laminate just before a shoot at Gympie in Qld and was faced with using a Tradtech Galaxy Trad bow but with ILF Limbs.
I raised the issue with the club and was told that I was welcome to shoot in the event but could not enter a score. In all respects the bow was Trad except for the ILF limbs.
Luckily I was able to get my Samick Squall fixed. The problem I see for most clubs is that if they keep adding categories for different Bows and types of arrows, the work load and extra costs for trophies etc become too much.

Ronster :Bow
I would love to be an expert, but experience and lack of knowledge holds me back!

Bows:-
Raven Vanquish 62" TD Recurve 44# @ 28"
Beaver 64" Longbow 41# @ 27"
Bear Montana 64" Longbow 50# @ 28"
Win & Win Winact ILF Riser and Win & Win Pro accent ILF carbon foam limbs 48# @ 28"

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