Apology to TAA
Moderator: Moderators
Re: Apology to TAA
'Traditional Archery Heritage' comment from Stickman Hunter could you clarify 'Heritage'. I would be interested in your reply. Thanks
Re: Apology to TAA
I'd be too, with an analogy like that - once again we are talking about archery EQUIPMENT used prior to the compound. That is just a semantic argument to justify a irrelevant point - unless of cause, there is a Bradman Bat used in a sport called Heritage Cricket Australia, I don't know much about cricket. I have never seen any archery divisions called and based after a person.bstan86 wrote:That's a huge call to say that the (most famous/well known) people involved in it are irrelevant to it's heritage.
That's like saying Donald Bradman is irrelevant to the heritage of Australian cricket...
You cant take a Formula One, remove the foil and drive it on a suburban street, and call it a family car.
So by the definition of Trad recurve, I can take my 68" carbon fibre Olympic target recurve, remove the clicker, sights and stabilisers, use it with timber arrows, and compete alongside the guy shooting off the shelf with his Bear Grizzly. I don't think he will consider it too fair. Better still, if my long window bow had camo marks all over the riser, I could use these a sighting marks, and shoot it like a target bow with target anchor, and call it traditional. And whilst it says in the definition no sighting aids can be used - how could you prove it - it is not an aid, it is a manufacturers finish. ABA had this problem and simply removed the issue later by allowing it via the manufacturer. A bit the same way I have seen custom made trad recurves made with pictures on the window which could also be used as a sighting reference.
Last edited by Kendaric on Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Apology to TAA
I have finished reading the so called guidelines and as far as I can ascertain they are pretty much useless.Kendaric wrote:......It seems the TAA had nice, simple, easy to understand and appropriate guidelines for bow types already..........
Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken. [Ascham]
“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]
I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken. [Ascham]
“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]
I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....
Re: Apology to TAA
Afternoon.
You could if it complied with the relevant requirements. Many vehicles which are biased to Motorsport are registered and driven on the road. May not be a pleasant car to drive but you can. All you need do is comply with the "Rules" (Registration Requirements, etc.) Many things can be done if you comply with the 'Rules and Requirements'.Kendaric wrote:You cant take a Formula One, remove the foil and drive it on a suburban street, and call it a family car.
Last edited by GrahameA on Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Grahame.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.
"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.
"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.
Re: Apology to TAA
Yeah, I should have ready it more closely - I was just happy to see the longbow separated from the semi-recurve.greybeard wrote:I have finished reading the so called guidelines and as far as I can ascertain they are pretty much useless.Kendaric wrote:......It seems the TAA had nice, simple, easy to understand and appropriate guidelines for bow types already..........
Daryl.
Re: Apology to TAA
Ok, let me rephrase that - you can't call it a HQ Holden station wagon, and your second point - true, which is why we have to be careful of what requirements are set at the outset.GrahameA wrote:Afternoon.
You could if it complied with the relevant requirements. Many vehicles which are biased to Motorsport are registered and driven it on the road. May not be a pleasant car to drive but you can. All you need do is comply with the "Rules" (Registration Requirements, etc.) Many things can be done if you comply with the 'Rules and Requirements'.Kendaric wrote:You cant take a Formula One, remove the foil and drive it on a suburban street, and call it a family car.
Re: Apology to TAA
Afternoon.
You could however, it would be a lie and it would fail when compared to the prototype.
Kendaric wrote:... you can't call it a HQ Holden station wagon ...
You could however, it would be a lie and it would fail when compared to the prototype.
Grahame.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.
"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.
"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.
Re: Apology to TAA
Righto we must be on different wavelengths then mate. Traditional archery is and was done by people, some of whom contributed greatly to its "heritage". How are they then irrelevent?Kendaric wrote:I'd be too, with an analogy like that - once again we are talking about archery EQUIPMENT used prior to the compound. That is just a semantic argument to justify a irrelevant point - unless of cause, there is a Bradman Bat used in a sport called Heritage Cricket Australia, I don't know much about cricket. I have never seen any archery divisions called and based after a person.bstan86 wrote:That's a huge call to say that the (most famous/well known) people involved in it are irrelevant to it's heritage.
That's like saying Donald Bradman is irrelevant to the heritage of Australian cricket...
You cant take a Formula One, remove the foil and drive it on a suburban street, and call it a family car.
So by the definition of Trad recurve, I can take my 68" carbon fibre Olympic target recurve, remove the clicker, sights and stabilisers, use it with timber arrows, and compete alongside the quy shooting off the shelf with his Bear Grizzly. I don't think he will consider it too fair. Better still, if my long window bow had camo marks all over the riser, I could use these a sighting marks, and shoot it like a target bow with target anchor, and call it traditonal. And whilst it says in the definition no sighting aids can be used - how could you prove it - it is not an aid, it is a manufacturers finish. ABA had this problem and simply removed the issue later by allowing it via the manufacturer. A bit the same way I have seen custom made trad recurves made with pictures on the window which could also be used as a sighting reference.
My cricket analogy was made in the hope it may provide a good exemplar of my point. Point obviously missed....
This thread is reminding me now of how the semantics of this sort of discussion are of little interest to me - but I still got caught up in it.
Re: Apology to TAA
Me toobstan86 wrote:but I still got caught up in it.
Re: Apology to TAA
But their definitions are still lacking detail.Kendaric wrote:.......Yeah, I should have ready it more closely - I was just happy to see the longbow separated from the semi-recurve.
If they allow fibreglass to be used in the construction of the bow would it not be logical to allow the use of fibreglass arrows? Taking the scenario further I believe the Martin Viper utilises carbon in its construction, yet another tin of worms.
The above is the least of my concerns as TAA's treatment of non glass bows is laughable.
Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken. [Ascham]
“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]
I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken. [Ascham]
“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]
I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....
Re: Apology to TAA
Read their definitions and it should become obvious.toby wrote:Darryl what's the problem with non fibreglass bows?
Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken. [Ascham]
“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]
I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken. [Ascham]
“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]
I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....
Re: Apology to TAA
Morning.
An example. This is from the TAA Guidelines http://www.traditionalarcheryaustralia. ... ines-1.pdf and in particular Asiatic Bows.
So is it the way that they are made? Are Arrows made that differently from the bow that...
Why is Carbon (HMG) Traditional when it is use to make a bow but "cannot be seen as Traditional" when it is used to make an arrow?
I an not advocating any side of the argument/discussion however, I do see it as not well written.
...
I anticipate that clarifies why it is important what people say. There are consequences to what they write/say.
We communicate/express ideas/etc. by the written word. If people expect you/me to believe what they write (have credibility) it is of significant importance that what they write is true and correct. So when people write something it is in their best interests that they give appropriate consideration.bstan86 wrote:... This thread is reminding me now of how the semantics of this sort of discussion are of little interest to me ...
An example. This is from the TAA Guidelines http://www.traditionalarcheryaustralia. ... ines-1.pdf and in particular Asiatic Bows.
Sounds good. In the next paragraph it has:... These bows can be made from any materials including fibreglass and carbon. ...
So what is the issue? It is not the material, Carbon, as it is acceptable for use - you could make/purchase an all-HMG bow and it would be acceptable but it is not acceptable in an arrow shaft.Carbon arrow shafts are not permitted as they cannot be seen as traditional.
So is it the way that they are made? Are Arrows made that differently from the bow that...
Why is Carbon (HMG) Traditional when it is use to make a bow but "cannot be seen as Traditional" when it is used to make an arrow?
I an not advocating any side of the argument/discussion however, I do see it as not well written.
...
I anticipate that clarifies why it is important what people say. There are consequences to what they write/say.
Last edited by GrahameA on Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Grahame.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.
"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.
"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.
Re: Apology to TAA
Morning.
Scrub that - I finally remembered how to do it - this is what happens when you do not use something for a few years.
The photo is from 2004 and whilst not a current F1 car you should get the concept - and the aeros were still on the car. I probably have some photos of a circa 2000 Ferrari F1 car in action. There is no standards on what you can call your car - other than Copyright which seems to be ignored by some - so for the moment it is a ...
Once again it is a matter of complying with the "Rules". If people do not like the "Rules" get them changed.
An addenda. An F1 car, a World Championship Winning F1 car, no aeros and being driven on the suburban streets of Murwillimbah.
I was going to post a photo of an F1 car being driven at a substantial rate of knots on the suburban streets of Murwillimbah to illustrate the point/issue but gave up. To much of an annoyance to get the photo up.Kendaric wrote:Me toobstan86 wrote:but I still got caught up in it.
Scrub that - I finally remembered how to do it - this is what happens when you do not use something for a few years.
The photo is from 2004 and whilst not a current F1 car you should get the concept - and the aeros were still on the car. I probably have some photos of a circa 2000 Ferrari F1 car in action. There is no standards on what you can call your car - other than Copyright which seems to be ignored by some - so for the moment it is a ...
Once again it is a matter of complying with the "Rules". If people do not like the "Rules" get them changed.
An addenda. An F1 car, a World Championship Winning F1 car, no aeros and being driven on the suburban streets of Murwillimbah.
Grahame.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.
"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.
"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.
Re: Apology to TAA
The more I read the TAA ‘equipment guidelines’ the more convinced I am that they are totally useless.
Primitive [adj.]
2. Characterized by simplicity or crudity; unsophisticated: primitive weapons.
3. Of or relating to a non industrial, often tribal culture, especially one that is characterized by an absence of literacy and a low level of economic or technological complexity: primitive societies.”
In the ‘Primitive’ division; TAA’s version;
A primitive bow may be of take-down construction, but two piece only.
A primitive bow may have a full pistol grip.
A primitive bow may have a shelf but must not be cut full centre shot (see longbow).
Where is TAA’s proof that primitive bows displaying these characteristics actually existed.
In TAA’s ‘English Longbow’ division;
Having a flattish back and stacked with a Roman arch type belly.
Having approximately an 8 to 5 width to depth ratio.
From Wiki;
“Organizations which run archery competitions have set out formal definitions for the various classes; many definitions of the longbow would exclude some medieval examples, materials, and techniques of use.
According to the British Longbow Society, the English longbow is made so that its thickness is at least ⅝ (.625%) of its width, as in Victorian longbows, and is widest at the handle.
This differs from the Medieval longbow, which had a thickness between 33% and 75% of the width.
Also, the Victorian longbow does not bend throughout the entire length, as does the medieval longbow.”
As TAA have made no reference to ‘stiff’ handle sectioned bows it would appear that medieval bows can be shot in this division if they comply with the ⅝ (.625%) rule. Otzi's 6000 year old yew longbow may even qualify for this division.
Daryl.
Primitive [adj.]
2. Characterized by simplicity or crudity; unsophisticated: primitive weapons.
3. Of or relating to a non industrial, often tribal culture, especially one that is characterized by an absence of literacy and a low level of economic or technological complexity: primitive societies.”
In the ‘Primitive’ division; TAA’s version;
A primitive bow may be of take-down construction, but two piece only.
A primitive bow may have a full pistol grip.
A primitive bow may have a shelf but must not be cut full centre shot (see longbow).
Where is TAA’s proof that primitive bows displaying these characteristics actually existed.
In TAA’s ‘English Longbow’ division;
Having a flattish back and stacked with a Roman arch type belly.
Having approximately an 8 to 5 width to depth ratio.
From Wiki;
“Organizations which run archery competitions have set out formal definitions for the various classes; many definitions of the longbow would exclude some medieval examples, materials, and techniques of use.
According to the British Longbow Society, the English longbow is made so that its thickness is at least ⅝ (.625%) of its width, as in Victorian longbows, and is widest at the handle.
This differs from the Medieval longbow, which had a thickness between 33% and 75% of the width.
Also, the Victorian longbow does not bend throughout the entire length, as does the medieval longbow.”
As TAA have made no reference to ‘stiff’ handle sectioned bows it would appear that medieval bows can be shot in this division if they comply with the ⅝ (.625%) rule. Otzi's 6000 year old yew longbow may even qualify for this division.
Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken. [Ascham]
“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]
I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken. [Ascham]
“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]
I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....
Re: Apology to TAA
Evening.
The 5/8 rule is very specific. A reproduction of a 'Mary Rose' bow as it will not comply. An anomaly in a classification termed 'English Longbow'.
The 5/8 rule is very specific. A reproduction of a 'Mary Rose' bow as it will not comply. An anomaly in a classification termed 'English Longbow'.
Grahame.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.
"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.
"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.
- BowmanBjorn
- Posts: 146
- Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2014 9:23 pm
- Location: Cairns
Re: Apology to TAA
ok in an attempt to be constructive. lets assume that the TTA guidelines for what ever reason are not up to scratch. we can argue that one way or the other all day with no real benefit other than stroking egos.
SO lets start from the top here and work through a suitable set of OZBOW RECOMMENDATIONS FOR BOW CLASS.
some questions:
1. How many classes should there be
2. what is the benefit to the archers of having these classes
3. For each class what are the defining features
4. what are the common limitations that apply to all classes
from here we can begin to discuss and plan out our guidelines.
my EXAMPLE and it is only an example!:
classes:
1. Historical: equipment as it was made and used pre 1900
2. traditional: materials and bows styles pre 1960
3. NEO Trad: modern materials and bows using no wheels, cams etc.
what is the benefit:
1. historical shows the golden era of archery and a richness of heritage (norse, medieval, mongal etc)
2. represents the image of traditional the majority of people have
3. allows performance junkies and newbies to join in and see how far they want to crawl down the rabbit hole.
defining features:
1. Historical: equipment and materials pre 1900.
2. Traditional:longbows, semi recurves, recurves, flatbows, yumi, horsebow etc. limited to materials that were available and in use at the time in bows. i.e no carbon or foam etc to be used.
3. NEO TRAD: anything goes as long as it doesn't have wheels!
common rules:
- no stabilising aids
- no siting aids
- no release aids unless it was of the period of bow you are shooting (i.e thumb ring with a horse bow)
- no draw aids i.e kisser buttons, clickers etc.
so boys and girls lets start to work this through. again i think the important part when looking at categories is to think about how adding a category BENEFITS the traditional archery community rather than just adding categories for the sake of it.
SO lets start from the top here and work through a suitable set of OZBOW RECOMMENDATIONS FOR BOW CLASS.
some questions:
1. How many classes should there be
2. what is the benefit to the archers of having these classes
3. For each class what are the defining features
4. what are the common limitations that apply to all classes
from here we can begin to discuss and plan out our guidelines.
my EXAMPLE and it is only an example!:
classes:
1. Historical: equipment as it was made and used pre 1900
2. traditional: materials and bows styles pre 1960
3. NEO Trad: modern materials and bows using no wheels, cams etc.
what is the benefit:
1. historical shows the golden era of archery and a richness of heritage (norse, medieval, mongal etc)
2. represents the image of traditional the majority of people have
3. allows performance junkies and newbies to join in and see how far they want to crawl down the rabbit hole.
defining features:
1. Historical: equipment and materials pre 1900.
2. Traditional:longbows, semi recurves, recurves, flatbows, yumi, horsebow etc. limited to materials that were available and in use at the time in bows. i.e no carbon or foam etc to be used.
3. NEO TRAD: anything goes as long as it doesn't have wheels!
common rules:
- no stabilising aids
- no siting aids
- no release aids unless it was of the period of bow you are shooting (i.e thumb ring with a horse bow)
- no draw aids i.e kisser buttons, clickers etc.
so boys and girls lets start to work this through. again i think the important part when looking at categories is to think about how adding a category BENEFITS the traditional archery community rather than just adding categories for the sake of it.
Centaur Triple carbon elite 2pce 60# @30"
Thunderstick MOAB 50# @30"
Flat line Raptor 45# @30"
Norseman Wrath 2pce 54# @30"
Norseman trilam ELB 104# @ 32"
Thunderstick MOAB 50# @30"
Flat line Raptor 45# @30"
Norseman Wrath 2pce 54# @30"
Norseman trilam ELB 104# @ 32"
Re: Apology to TAA
It may be beneficial to start a fresh post rather than dragging this one out.BowmanBjorn wrote:ok in an attempt to be constructive. lets assume that the TTA guidelines for what ever reason are not up to scratch. we can argue that one way or the other all day with no real benefit other than stroking egos........SO lets start from the top here and work through a suitable set of OZBOW RECOMMENDATIONS FOR BOW CLASS..........so boys and girls lets start to work this through. again i think the important part when looking at categories is to think about how adding a category BENEFITS the traditional archery community rather than just adding categories for the sake of it.
Daryl.
My personal view is two divisions, pre 1901 no synthetic materials [laminating glues could be an issue]; post 1901 plastic bows in all their configurations and plastic/alloy arrows where applicable.
One may also have to take into account hunting sights used in the earlier parts of the 1900s.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken. [Ascham]
“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]
I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken. [Ascham]
“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]
I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....
- BowmanBjorn
- Posts: 146
- Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2014 9:23 pm
- Location: Cairns
Re: Apology to TAA
ok will do.
i REALLY LIKE your idea of 2 devisions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! easy to implement and inclusive of all "traditional shooter"
i REALLY LIKE your idea of 2 devisions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! easy to implement and inclusive of all "traditional shooter"
Centaur Triple carbon elite 2pce 60# @30"
Thunderstick MOAB 50# @30"
Flat line Raptor 45# @30"
Norseman Wrath 2pce 54# @30"
Norseman trilam ELB 104# @ 32"
Thunderstick MOAB 50# @30"
Flat line Raptor 45# @30"
Norseman Wrath 2pce 54# @30"
Norseman trilam ELB 104# @ 32"
Re: Apology to TAA
greybeard wrote:It may be beneficial to start a fresh post rather than dragging this one out.BowmanBjorn wrote:ok in an attempt to be constructive. lets assume that the TTA guidelines for what ever reason are not up to scratch. we can argue that one way or the other all day with no real benefit other than stroking egos........SO lets start from the top here and work through a suitable set of OZBOW RECOMMENDATIONS FOR BOW CLASS..........so boys and girls lets start to work this through. again i think the important part when looking at categories is to think about how adding a category BENEFITS the traditional archery community rather than just adding categories for the sake of it.
Daryl.
My personal view is two divisions, pre 1901 no synthetic materials [laminating glues could be an issue]; post 1901 plastic bows in all their configurations and plastic/alloy arrows where applicable.
One may also have to take into account hunting sights used in the earlier parts of the 1900s.
I like that idea as well Daryl. Now can someone magically implement it please so that we can go back to talking more about traditional bowhunting instead of organisational semantics and nitpicking...
Re: Apology to TAA
Someone is extremely busy at the moment but feel free to get the ball rolling.bstan86 wrote:.............. Now can someone magically implement it please so that we can go back to talking more about traditional bowhunting instead of organisational semantics and nitpicking...
Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken. [Ascham]
“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]
I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken. [Ascham]
“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]
I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....