new ABA rules on aluminium arrows?

[Mattkaye]

what are the ABA rules on Aluminium arrows, iv heard mixed reviews!

or is it ok for ABA shoots but not Trad shoots?

[greybeard]

Matt,

To the best of my knowledge most trad shoot organizers disregard some of the 'institutional rules' and run with their own versions/equipment rules.

Best to check equipment rules before attending a particular event.

I cannot understand why some archers have a problem with wooden arrows.

Daryl.

[little arrows]

Under the current ABA rules as at Jan 2015 timber arrows from the Orange Trad Peg and carbon/aluminiums from the Red Peg.

The ABA usually have their national meeting in November, so I am sure we will all find out when the minutes are released.

As greybeard has suggested - best to check before attending.

cheers
sue

[scubaninja]

ABA rules in relation to longbows have 2 divisions.
1. Traditional longbow where you must use timber arrows, 12 inches total of feathers, min 125grain pile and traditional D shaped bow (i.e. no reflex/deflex).
2. Modern longbow takes in all other options which allows alloy or even carbon arrows as well as the RD type longbows.
Recent ABA National events have allowed for both Traditional and Modern divisions to shoot from the Orange Hunters peg.
Personally I do shoot both Traditional and Modern forms but will only shoot from the Red peg. I believe if you can gain consistency at the longer distances through practice, the shorter shots become a piece of cake. IMO.

[greybeard]

....and traditional D shaped bow (i.e. no reflex/deflex)......

Do you know if the above refers to the limb cross section as well as the shape of the bow when unbraced/braced?

Possibly, in an obscure manner are they trying to restrict this category to flat laid bows. Is a decurve longbow, a design that has been around for centuries allowed in this category.

If they are referring to the form a braced bow takes then a rigid handle bow would not or should not qualify.

Fortunately I have numerous informal trad shoots that I can attend during the year.

Daryl.

[little arrows]

yes greybeard, we are indeed fortunate

sue

[Ian Turner]

Hi scubaninja; mate in those wooden arrow specs when you say 125gr pile i assume you are talking point weight of a minimum 125gr.
Cheers

[Kendaric]

Hi scubaninja; mate in those wooden arrow specs when you say 125gr pile i assume you are talking point weight of a minimum 125gr.
Cheers

The minimum 125gr weight is pile/point weight, but only applies to bows over 50#.

[Kendaric]

....and traditional D shaped bow (i.e. no reflex/deflex)......

Do you know if the above refers to the limb cross section as well as the shape of the bow when unbraced/braced?

The traditional longbow here, that ABA refers too, is mostly like the Howard Hill Style longbow, and the no reflex/deflex refers to the limb curve when the bow is braced. A deflexed handle/riser is not part of the description. It is not defined as to whether the limb cross-section has to be flat or curved(D section), so one can assume either is permissible.

The English Style Longbow comes under the Historical Division, but one assumes that if it meets the requirements of the ABA's definition of Traditional Longbow, then it could be shot in that division, if one so wanted too.

A Modern Longbow (in most cases a semi-recurve), as defined by ABA, can be shot off the Trad peg if they use timber arrows. It should also be noted that if you shoot a longbow with a window that is cut past centreshot, or you use three fingers under, you are also lumped in Modern Longbow Division.

Here is an extract from the ABA rulebook as of 2014:

2. Traditional Longbow Division (short name “TLB”) The definition of
a TLB shall be:-
a) A one piece straight ended bow of any material, whether glued up of
one or more laminations of materials, which when strung displays one
continued unidirectional curve from the riser ends to the tips, which is
measured as follows: When the strung bow is placed in a vertical
position the angle as measured between the tangent of any point on the
limb and an imaginary horizontal line must always decrease as this
point is moved further away from the bow grip or riser ends. If there
are any doubts about the curve being continuous and unidirectional
then a string line stretched on the back of the bow from the riser ends
to the commencement of the limb tip overlays will not show any gaps
under it. If there are any gaps then the bow will fall into the MLB or
Recurve Division.
b) The tip reinforcing may not exceed 25 mm in height, measured from
the surface of the back of the bow limb, and may not exceed 50 mm in
length, measured from the centre of the string groove towards the bow
centre.
c) The bow may contain a window and an arrow shelf. The side of the
window shall be curved over the full length of the window and
rounded off at the point where the window intersects with the top of
the riser or top bow limb. The window must not be cut past centre
shot. The window and arrow shelf may be padded with leather or other
material.
d) The arrows, belly, bow grip, bow window, string and arrow shelf shall
be free of any marks or blemishes that may be used as sighting aids.
Manufacturers markings are exempt.
e) Any additions to the bow for the purpose of stabilization, levelling,
sighting or draw checking are not permitted, and the inclusion of any
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of these items may cause the bow to be assessed as falling within the
MLB or Recurve Division.
f) Only one knocking point shall be allowed on the string, which may be
by one or two nock locators; if two nock locators are used the arrow
must be nocked between them.
g) Arrows shall be wooden shafted. Fletched with feathers, and must be
of the same length fletch and pile, with due allowance for wear and
tear. The arrow must be free of any marks or blemishes that can be
used as sighting aids. If the bow weighs over 50 pounds of draw
weight (at the archers draw length ) then the arrows shall carry at least
12 inches of fletching and have a point of at least 125 grains weight.
Arrow nocks cut into the shaft are not permitted.
h) The bow must be shot with the ‘Mediterranean’ loose. In the case of
physical deformity or handicap special dispensation shall be allowed.
i) One consistent anchor point shall be used and face walking is not
permitted.
3. Modern Longbow Division (MLB): - the definition of a MLB under
this sub-section shall be:
a) A generally straight ended bow assembled from one or more sections
of any material, whether glued up of one or more laminations of
materials, which when strung displays a curvature from the riser ends
to the limb tips. When strung the bow may display a slight
reflex/deflex in the curvature of the limbs. PROVIDED the string
ONLY touches at the string groove nocks. Any following of the string
along the belly side of the bow limbs will classify the bow into the
Recurve Division.
b) The arrows, belly, bow grip, bow window, string and arrow shelf shall
be free of any marks or blemishes that may be used as sighting aids.
Manufacturer’s markings are exempt.
c) The tip reinforcing may not exceed 25mm in height, measured from
the surface of the back of the bow limb, and may not exceed 50mm in
length, measured from the centre of the string groove towards the bow
centre.
d) The bow may contain a window and an arrow shelf. The window and
Arrow shelf may be padded with leather or other material. An arrow
rest may be fastened to the window and/ or arrow shelf. A finger or
wrist sling may be used when shooting.
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e) The arrows, belly, bow grip, bow window, string and arrow shelf or
rest shall be free of any marks or blemishes that may be used as
sighting marks.
f) Any additions to the bow for the purpose of stabilization, levelling,
sighting or draw checking are not permitted, and the inclusion of any
of these items may cause the bow to fall within the Recurve Division.
g) Only one knocking point shall be allowed on the string which may be
marked by one or two nock locators, if two knock locators are used the
arrow must be knocked between them.
j) Arrows may be of any material and fletched with any material, and
must be of the same length, fletch and pile, with due allowance for
wear and tear. The arrow must be free of any marks and blemishes that
can be used as sighting aids. If the bow weighs over 50 pounds of
draw weight (at the archers draw length) then the arrows shall have a
pile of at least 125 grains weight. Arrow nocks cut into the shaft are
not permitted.
h) The bow must be shot using a finger release, and the index finger must
touch the nock. In cases of physical deformity special dispensation
shall be allowed.
i) One consistent anchor point shall be used, and face walking is not
permitted.
4. Historical Equipment Division the definition under this sub-section
shall be:
a) In this division there shall be no distinction between the different
configurations of bow design and material used. There shall be no
grades or classes.
b) A Historical Bow is a bow recognised as such by the Association and
is of known accepted usage during the period preceding the year 1900
and shall be either a self-wood or a composite bow, which is made to
a configuration which has established historical precedence. The
inclusion of a form of arrow rest/shelf and a sight window cut-in are
permitted provided such meet the historical configuration for that bow
design. A bow constructed of historical materials, but having no
historical precedence shall not be permitted.
c) The maximum draw weight of the bow shall not exceed its historical
usage. Materials used to construct the bow must be materials
22
historically used during the period of the bow’s historical usage.
However, modern glues/adhesives shall be used. Historical
glues/adhesives are not permitted.
d) Historical string materials such as flax, hemp, sinew and other such
materials are not permitted. Modern bow string material is not
permitted, however B-50 material shall be the standard material.
e) Arrow shafts shall be made of wood and fletched with natural feather,
attached by historical means. Modern arrow points/piles are permitted
as are nocks. Arrow nocks cut into the shaft are not permitted.
f) Accessories such as thumb rings, woven nock positioners etc are
permitted provided that such accessory was used in the historical
sense. The onus of fact of historical usage shall rest with the shooter.
g) The onus shall rest with the shooter to ensure that equipment used is
historically correct, and is that recognised by the Association. Documented
evidence of authenticity shall be provided by the shooter on request.

[Stickbow Hunter]

Ya gotta laugh when a national body such as ABA can't even use the correct terminology in their offical rules - they use reflex/deflex instead of deflex/reflex. Not only that they allow recurves to be shot in the modern longbow division. No different to the Trad shoots from what I see though. How sad!!!

Jeff

[Kendaric]

Not only that they allow recurves to be shot in the modern longbow division. No different to the Trad shoots from what I see though. How sad!!! Jeff

True enough, but at least they have a division for it - something Trad shoots don't seem too unfortunately. Every time it is suggested, one gets a howl of indignation and scorn for suggesting such.

[Stickbow Hunter]

True enough, but at least they have a division for it - something Trad shoots don't seem too unfortunately. Every time it is suggested, one gets a howl of indignation and scorn for suggesting such.

Yes but if they are going to have a group specifically for them why 'Modern Longbow' when the bows are clearly recurves?

Jeff

[Kendaric]

Yes, the wording of modern longbow wouldn't work for 'Trad'. I suppose the ABA used it, as people understood what that was perceived to be from the marketing pitch. I'm speculating that putting modern longbows (semi-recurves) into the recurve division would have caused too much angst. ABA has perhaps gone too far with too many divisions in the compound section.

I too believe that many of the modern longbow semi-recurve designs belong in the recurve division, but I think that may cause to much outcry. Funny how it is ok to mix traditional longbows with semi-recurves at Trad shoots (we are not talking about ABA or 3DAAA), but not put semi-recurve longbows in with recurves. I wonder why?

Other division, (perhaps called hybrid) may be the go as a compromise.

I have seen it said that 'semi-recurve' longbows have been present long before and during the ELB period - but that being the case, why not put them in the Historical division. I cant see the Historical division shooters being a party to this though.

[Stickbow Hunter]

This whole mess just keeps going!

Other division, (perhaps called hybrid) may be the go as a compromise.

No such thing as a hybrid bow; just call them what they really are, semi-recurves.

Jeff

[greybeard]

........I have seen it said that 'semi-recurve' longbows have been present long before and during the ELB period - but that being the case, why not put them in the Historical division. I cant see the Historical division shooters being a party to this though.

I believe it would contravene the following;

Here is an extract from the ABA rulebook as of 2014:
4. Historical Equipment Division the definition under this sub-section shall be:
b) A Historical Bow is a bow recognised as such by the Association and is of known accepted usage during the period preceding the year 1900
and shall be either a self-wood or a composite bow, which is made to a configuration which has established historical precedence..........

I believe the term 'composite' refers to timber laminations so any bows incorporating fibreglass would not be allowed in this division.

People appear to be stumbling over the term ELB. Surely we should be expanding our vision.

"THE ICE MAN’S BOW"

"The latest scientific dating on Otzi, the Ice Man, places this archer in the Stone Age about 5,000 years ago. His mummified body, found in a glacier in the Italian Alps, “reveals the secrets of the Stone Age,” as one author put it.
The recovery began as a routine removal of a body, since this occurs often in the Alps when modern-day hikers get lost. The result was considerable damage to a treasure of ancient equipment, not only Otzi’s bow and archery tackle, but his many other pieces of equipment. The bow, which is our main interest here, was broken during recovery.
Piecing it together again, we have a longbow 182 centimeters (71 inches) long, taller than its owner, who was only 160.5 centimeters (63 inches) tall (although that figure may well be less than his height in life).
The bow was protruding up out of the ice because it had been set against a boulder with care. Sadly, the part sticking out of the ice was snapped right off. The recovers did not know what it was. To them it appeared as a stick. When the broken part was removed from the ice to join the main piece, it proved to be a bow, but unlike other ancient bows that have been found, it was unfinished. Its owner was not granted the time to do that—evidence shows that he was probably murdered.
The bow stave was made of yew, an absolutely suitable wood. Otzi’s would-be bow had been carefully trimmed and the belly was evenly rounded. The stave was gracefully tapered to two trim ends. There were no bow nocks, which led to the belief that the string was just tied on. But we do not know that for sure; Otzi may well have planned to make the limb nocks later.
The concluding fact is that the Ice Man’s bow was a well-thought-out instrument of good potential."

The ELB is the new kid on the block.

Daryl.

[Kendaric]

This whole mess just keeps going!

Other division, (perhaps called hybrid) may be the go as a compromise.

No such thing as a hybrid bow; just call them what they really are, semi-recurves.

Jeff

As much as I would like too, I'm trying to be diplomatic and compromising lol.

[Kendaric]

I believe it would contravene the following;

Agreed, I was just drawing a dry whit argument for those that argue that a semi-recurve has a historical precedent to be called traditional longbows.

I think people are getting the terminology confused with the word traditional longbow in the Australian context, as it refers to shooting divisions. It refers primarily to the Howard Hill style of longbow (for the lack of a better description) of the majority of the 1900's.

The English Longbow (ELB) falls into the historical division, which is loosely referred pre 1900's. Yes I know there is some overlap in the early 1900's. The ELB could include both the later Victorian English Longbow, and the earlier English war bow.

[Kendaric]

I believe it would contravene the following;

Agreed, I was just drawing a dry whit counter for those that argue that a semi-recurve has a historical precedent to be called traditional longbows.

I think people are getting the terminology confused with the word 'traditional longbow' in the Australian context, as it refers to shooting divisions. It refers primarily to the Howard Hill style of longbow (for the lack of a better description) of the majority of the 1900's.

The English Longbow (ELB) falls into the historical division, which is loosely referred pre 1900's. Yes I know there is some overlap in the early 1900's. The ELB could include both the later Victorian English Longbow, and the earlier English war bow.

[Muz1970]

I was reading through the ABA rules posted and it states that Traditional division must be shot using the ‘Mediterranean’ loose. I see plenty of people getting all geared up to shoot trad but then go and shoot three fingers under. Which puts them straight into "Modern Longbow". I've explained this to a few people much to there disgust. I guess the rules are to stop people gap shooting.

Doesn't bother me as I don't do a lot of club shoots.

[bstan86]

Rules upon rules upon rules........

I have enjoyed all the trad shoots and club shoots I've been to in the past but gee - one of the main things I love about trad archery is the SIMPLICITY. Is there really a big enough difference between recurves, longbows and reflex/reflex bows to get worried that your choice is at a disadvantage/advantage compared to someone else's? Similarly the same could be said for arrow materials....

Don't get me wrong I do see the need for a set of governing principals and rules in these things but sometimes I just wonder if things are getting over-complicated and counterproductive.

[GrahameA]

Evening.

I believe it would contravene the following;

The English Longbow (ELB) falls into the historical division, which is loosely referred pre 1900's. ...

What is an English Longbow? The style/design of bows made and used ln the area called 'England' varies greatly over the last 5000 years (ie from the Meare Heath bow on).

[Kendaric]

I've explained this to a few people much to there disgust. I guess the rules are to stop people gap shooting.

I surmise that three fingers under is not generally considered traditional in the sense of the Traditional Longbow division. I tend to feel that they are correct in that. Three fingers under became more common in the later part of this century, due to the advent of shorter recurve bows and then compounds. Three fingers under reduced finger pinch due to the sharper string angle of these shorter bows.

Three fingers under may have also given some gapping advantage, as some people could gun barrel the arrow for aiming.

So it seems only fair to place everyone on the same level playing field, to make these distinctions.

Hence the modern longbow division.

Every one wants an advantage.

[Kendaric]

What is an English Longbow? The style/design of bows made and used ln the area called 'England' varies greatly over the last 3000 years (ie from the Meare Heath bow on).

Indeed - 'historical division' covers a lot a area.

[Kendaric]

Don't get me wrong I do see the need for a set of governing principals and rules in these things but sometimes I just wonder if things are getting over-complicated and counterproductive.

Fair point - but like anything, you will always get those that will try to exploit the lack of guidelines.

I'm all for simplicity. It's not that hard - if ABA members can understand their multitude of divisions, how hard can it be.

[BowmanBjorn]

yeah its a never ending merrygoround.....

i shoot a D/R bow, hybrid, semirecurve, stock bow what ever the hell you want to call it. i shoot it because i like the compromise between a "proper longbow" and a recurve. i shoot carbon arrows when possible because i prefer the consistency and i don't have time to make timbers for everyday shooting and hunting.

BUT i don't care who i shoot with or in what division i shoot from the same beg everyone else in the group shoots from whether they be recurve or compound shooters. its all fun and if i can't make the shot then i either need to practise more or just deal with it

divisions are there for those who need everybody to be even to win, as far as i'm concerned. i've watched a couple of different longbow shooters consistently place in the top 5 of an open shoot with semi recurve, recurve and compound shooters. so i think the reality is that if you know your bow and your shooting well then who cares.

the reality is that when your out hunting the Deer doesn't give a crap what type of bow it was shot with!

[Kendaric]

yeah its a never ending merrygoround.....

the reality is that when your out hunting the Deer doesn't give a crap what type of bow it was shot with!

Absolutely.

No one is saying that these bows are bad. My own hybrid is sweet to shoot and graceful to look at, and we all shoot what we like to shoot, for what-ever reason. I shoot along side compounders, recurves etc - fellow archers.

I just think that there is sufficient differences between to the two types, that Trad events (again, we are not taking about ABA or 3DAAA) should draw a distinction between the two. Informal or not - if there are first, second and third place winners, then it is not informal, but competition.

Every other archery body has seen the distinction, I can't understand why Trad events are so dogged in not.

[bstan86]

with regards to longbow vs. deflex/reflex the main distinction I see is really in the grip - the straight (broken wrist) grip for the "longbow" and the web-of-hand cradling (straight wrist) for the D/R.

yes the D/R usually has a more efficient limb design but whats a few FPS in the real world? - most archers won't pick the difference in actual shooting IMO.

as for recurves - well the heavy risers many have would have to be a bit of an advantage especially for target courses over a really light Longbow or D/R. But once again how big is it in the real world?




at the end of the day the individual archers skill will have a far greater impact on their success on the target course than any of the above - again JMHO.

[BowmanBjorn]

I don't see the need for the distinction to be recognised. Between the bows at a trad event. If there was such a big advantage then we'd see the D/R shooters consistently winning these things and I just don't think that's the case. Those that win would probably have won regardless of the design of bow they were shooting. I know of one particular archer who was shooting a DOG of a straight limbed longbow that had gone reverse tiller and still wiped the floor with all the recurve and D/R shooters.

d/R Bo's certainly have a FPS performance but I'm not sure if it out ways the consists cry of a more traditionally straight end bow.

Anyway trade shoots aren't generally governed by a body up here in FNQ so the rules are many and varied. Until there is a governing body for trade (which there isn't then it's all just ******* in the wind)

[bstan86]

I don't see the need for the distinction to be recognised. Between the bows at a trad event. If there was such a big advantage then we'd see the D/R shooters consistently winning these things and I just don't think that's the case. Those that win would probably have won regardless of the design of bow they were shooting.

absolutely!

I know of one particular archer who was shooting a DOG of a straight limbed longbow[/quote

aren't they all like that? that's why the D/R bows came about wasn't it?

[Stickbow Hunter]

Let me say quite clearly that I don't care what bows people like to shoot; their choice. May I also say I am not in any association and don't get to attend shoots much at all anymore.

My problem with the naming of semi-recurves as longbows and using incorrect terminology is the fact that if you choose to do so then you aren't carrying on the traditions of our forebears and therefore are not holding true to the traditions of Traditional Archery.

Terminology specific to Traditional Archery is just as important as the equipment. If one chooses to ignore this then regardless of whatever traditions they think they are preserving they are most certainly not preserving those of Traditional Archery.

If we loose our language than we have lost our heritage!

Sadly this is happening at an alarming rate these days and in fact to a large degree it has already happened IMO.

Jeff