Call to TAA for hybrid/semi recurve division.

[Kendaric]

I am afraid that the ABA got it right.

Modern Longbows (hybrid semi recurve) should have their own division.

I don't understand why TAA still continues to lump all modern semi recurve 'longbows' into the same division as longbows. I think the TAA got too caught up in the "traditional wording" of modern longbow, but maybe a hybrid or semi recurve division, based on ABA lines might be the way to go.

Either that, or PUT THEM INTO THE RECURVE DIVISION - but no, that wont happen because there is NO advantage gained for a hybrid in the recurve division, by those that have have the most to gain by this grey area.

I cant help feel that one shoots a 'semi recurve modern longbow' to try and gain some sort of advantage over the tradition longbow (what we tend to consider the Howard Hill semi-longbow design).

I mean, were do you draw the line. I can shoot a semi-recurve 3 piece bow from Apex Archery (not currently available, but it use to be, that is still considered a longbow by TAA, because the string only touches the nocks. It is a centre cut design with camo on the riser than I can use as sighting marks.

People will alway try to gain advantage by skirting around the rules, and wording is a wonderfully way to say one thing to mean another (modern longbow - semi recurve) - but the TAA needs to be progressive in this area too.

[Ian Turner]

Hi yes i have to agree it is a lot easier shooting a centre cut hybrid LB than a straight handled straight laid howard hill type.
The hybrid has distinct advantages in speed and "shootability" as i have come to learn owning both types.
Cheers

[BowmanBjorn]

It's a tricky issue,

I agree that the hybrid bows have distinct benefits in speed over more traditional longbows but as far as shootability I don't know. I choose to shoot a Semirecurve/ hybrid what ever you want to call it bow because I enjoy it. I regularly shoot with recurve arches and we all score together. There's no one holding a gun to my head to shoot this bow it's just the bow I like.

At the hunter valley traditional gathering this year the top 2 bows were Howard hill style longbows and 1 was an all timber trilaminate bow.

I think the reality is it's more the shooter than the bow.

I think it's fair to have the different categories but I don't think people should hide behind them. A great archer with a ELB can shoot it with the best of them.

I believe there is a draft new category list with TAA already in the pipeline so what you are chasing may already be on the cards.
For me it's shoot what you want with the people you want and who cares about the politics.

[Kendaric]

Yes it is a tricky issue.

And yes, you are correct about that, we shoot what we enjoy, and there should be no penitally for that.

Some of the hybrids are also beautiful looking bows with nice lines and are sweet to shoot, I cant argue with that. I own all three types, longbow, hybrid and recurve. I enjoy them all, all for different reasons.

I suppose, for me, it is - WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE.

The Bear Montana is strictly a 'Modern Longbow', but only just. It would have no advantage over a traditional longbow - riser/handle is within 16-18", is cut to centreshot but not past centreshot (arrow still sits outside centreshot), and limbs are only just reflexed slightly.

But then you get the other extreme which is a full on semi-recurve, with large cut past centre shot recurve handle, but the recurve set such that the string only just misses touching the limb. And they call this a longbow. This can be manipulated by brace height too.

[GrahameA]

Evening All.

TAA is not an organising body.

It does not organise any events.

It has no mandate to specfy what equipment will be shot or what divisions are shot.

To the best of my knowledge there are no events that are shot to TAA Rules.

[greybeard]

Don't hold your breath as nothing will happen. TAA do not command the power to make changes.

1901 sounds good.

Daryl.

[little arrows]

actually, there is a separate division just the same as ABA - HOWEVER

I repeat as Grahame and greybeard have noted above:

- TAA is NOT a governing body so has NO mandate to specify what equipment and divisions are shot at the ABA / 3DAAA clubs which is where the bulk of the Trad shoots are held.

- TAA do not organise any Traditional events, I only use their site to provide the information of when and where the shoots are held, the same as I do here on ozbow.

sue

[clinton miller]

i thought TAA was an acronym for Timber Arrows Australia.

[Roadie]

1346 was also a good Year for Timber Arrows, and according to All reports it was one Hell of a Shoot. Çheers Roadie

[Kendaric]

- TAA is NOT a governing body so has NO mandate to specify what equipment and divisions are shot at the ABA / 3DAAA clubs which is where the bulk of the Trad shoots are held.
sue

Fair enough, that being the case, I withdraw my comments. My appologies if this caused any offence.

[AndyF]

Hello all,

As someone who primarily shoots what many call 'modern' longbows or even 'hybrid' bows at Trad Shoots, I thought I'd add a few words.

On the bus this morning I was reading an interesting article in the Oct/Nov 2015 edition of Traditional Bowhunter magazine called 'The Long History of the "Short" Deflex-Reflex Bow by Bruce M Smithhammer (great surname). He essentially discusses the very subject of what are and aren't longbows etc.

To quote from the early paragraphs:

'We would do well to acknowledge that our collective history extends a lot farther back than Hill, Saxton or Pope - or the hey day of the English longbow, for that matter.'

And '...the recent popularity of comparatively short, deflex-reflex longbows is merely another demonstration of the maxim, "Everything old is new again.'

In short, the article goes on to discuss that there have been many bow designs over thousands of years, and for all kinds of reasons. Doubtless today's traditional bowyers will continue to experiment with new materials and designs just as our ancestors did. Consequently, what exactly defines a bow as a 'longbow' will always be up for debate.

In general, those (and I don't want to point a finger or apportion blame in any way here, after all it's all just opinions) who talk (or whinge) about 'modern' longbows, 'semi-recurves' and 'hybrid' longbows tend to be those shooting Hill style, flat laid longbows. I wonder why this is. After all, compared to my yew longbow or osage self bow, a Hill style bow with it's glass and tapered bamboo laminations etc is very much a 'modern' longbow.

As to the performance advantage of bows like my deflex-reflex Fox Triple Crowns, Border Harrier and Griffon, Blackbrook Sigma, Tomahawk Diamond SS etc (and shortly arriving Border Harrier Royale and Timberpoint Kraken), I'll grant that pound for pound in draw weight etc they're usually faster than a straight laid bow and so can offer a slightly flatter arrow trajectory. However, I've talked/argued for hours with Nick Lintern on the subject and he'll swear blind that a flat laid bow is more stable and more forgiving of less than perfect form. If this is the case, which kind of 'longbow' really offers a discernible advantage?

At last weekend's Specs Shoot at the Hunter Valley, all the top three Male and Female longbow shooters we're shooting Hill Style bows (mainly Norseman's, I believe), and not for the first time. Me and my twitchy, semi-recurve, hybrid, modern longbow didn't get a look in - which I'm happy to put down to my poor shooting rather than them having 'more forgiving', 'easier to shoot' bows.

Anyway, doubtless the debate will go on and on and we'll all shoot the kind of bows we like shooting anyway. Who knows, maybe one of these days there'll be different divisions for Hill style 'modern' longbows with straight grips and pistol grips, maple or bamboo laminations, glass, no glass. But can you imagine how long the presentations will go on for! Yawn.

[BowmanBjorn]

Amen brother!

shoot what you want to shoot, shoot it as well as you can and have fun doing it who gives a crap about the rest!

on a side note Andy stop talking about your quiver of bows your giving me an inferiority complex!

[littlejohn59]

Modern longbows should have their own division ?

There are enough categories in ABA now for everyone to be a winner.... almost....lol.
P.S. I am not pro or con ABA

I like to think of myself as Black and white person. I hate grey areas. However Trad bows are changing so much and everybody wants that edge. A little like compounders who change their bows every year for the next model thinking they will score that little better. Whether you want to admit it or not, as humans we are competitive.
Scoring allows us to compare ourselves to the next bloke,but I don't want.t to get started on that as it is another subject all on its own

Longbows too, have travelled down this road now. Longbows can be purchased with centre cut or past centre cut, come with recurve style grips, pistol grips, limbs under 60 inches, different types of fibreglass, carbon fibre core bows and reflex deflex limbs, flat bowsand yep, it’s all called traditional. Not to mention arrows. Once a longbow was shot according to how tall the owner was. Till recent times a longbow had to be a minimum of 5 foot. Now they are making hybrid longbows less than 5 feet and still calling them a longbow.

You ask where do you draw the line......oh my,that grey area. How many categories do you want . Like some are saying on this site, it is becoming tricky and I would say its bordering on the lines of being a nuisance and taking away the fun of what used to be called,shooting a longbow.

However I can’t see it disappearing soon.

I agree with bowmanbjorn. I will shoot what I like and the officials can categorize me into the class they see fit. Just let me shoot.

In competition It doesn’t matter what you shoot, so long as the next guy to you is using an equivalent bow .
If I want to be a serious competitor I will simply have to abide by the rules of the shoot on the day and bring that particular bow that suits their classification.

My half a cent worth.

[GrahameA]

Morning

Modern longbows should have their own division

There are enough categories ...

Having more than a passing interest.. Just to give something for people to consider.

* If you increase the divisions you need to produce the rules, police the rule divisions, maintain the rules, have effective/timely notification of changes and have effective rule compliance. Are you creating a workload that can be neither maintained or sustained.

* Increasing the divisions you may dilute the number of competitors in any division.

* Is/are the differences between the divisions enough to make a difference in the results.

[Kendaric]

Seems like a lot of muddying the waters with what is a longbow.

Pretty simple really, we already have an accurate description for common use prior to the compound, and after the ELB - though most of it follows the Howard Hill style.

A one piece straight ended bow of any material, whether glued up of one or more laminations of materials, which when strung displays one continued unidirectional curve from the riser ends to the tips, which is measured as follows: When the strung bow is placed in a vertical position the angle as measured between the tangent of any point on the limb and an imaginary horizontal line must always decrease as this point is moved further away from the bow grip or riser ends. If there are any doubts about the curve being continuous and unidirectional then a string line stretched on the back of the bow from the riser ends to the commencement of the limb tip overlays will not show any gaps under it. If there are any gaps then the bow will fall into the MLB or Recurve Division.

The bow may contain a window and an arrow shelf. The side of the window shall be curved over the full length of the window and rounded off at the point where the window intersects with the top of
the riser or top bow limb. The window must not be cut past centre shot. The window and arrow shelf may be padded with leather or other material.

We have a division for Historical bows already, for ELB and other historical or pre-ELB

Maybe stick these hybrid bows into Historical or Recurve.

As to just shooting what you like - great, I cant ague with that. But if you don't want distinctions between Hybrid and Longbow, why have divisions at all at Trad Shoots. Why have first, second, or third places awards.

If Trad shoots (we are not talking about ABA or 3DAAA) started putting hybrids into the recurve division, I would imagine there would be an outcry against it. Why would there be an outcry - because many people want an advantage. Yet it is the same thing as putting semi-recurves in with Howard Hill Style longbows.

To borrow from glossary: It was never regarded as a longbow, and the advertising of those times made a point of distinguishing this design from the 'old-fashioned' straight-ended longbow.

Later in the 1960s, it was largely superseded by the clearly superior full recurved bows and faded from common use until recently when it has regained some popularity and novelty - why? because at Trad shoots, it can be lumped into the longbow division, and for some, this can be seen as an advantage.

Whether it is an advantage is very debatable. In many cases I don't think so.

And it get back to the point of 'where do you draw the line' A Montana Longbow is a hybrid, but only barely, and would offer no advantage, but then you get someone who gets a three piece metal riser bow with a long cut out target bow type window, is only 58" long overall, but then it has straight limbs and can be shot in a Trad event as a longbow. I mean seriously?

[Kendaric]

actually, there is a separate division just the same as ABA - HOWEVER

Thats great, what is it?

I have never such a division exercised at any trad events.

[Kendaric]

To illustrate my point, after you remove the sights and whisker biscuit arrow rest:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/The-Dark-Nig ... 23592cde04

Or this:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Black-Pig-48 ... 1819968004

The camo marks on the riser can be used a sighting references points, much like using a sight.

Again, where do you draw the line?

[little arrows]

so tell me - which Trad shoots have you been to this year, that you have had difficulty personally with your particular bow or are you just being obtuse in general?
I ask as, you have no location, so none of us can even guess the area you may be in.

sue

[greybeard]

.........., but then you get someone who gets a three piece metal riser bow with a long cut out target bow type window, is only 58" long overall, but then it has straight limbs and can be shot in a Trad event as a longbow. I mean seriously?

To illustrate my point, after you remove the sights and whisker biscuit arrow rest:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/The-Dark-Nig ... 23592cde04

Or this:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Black-Pig-48 ... 1819968004

The camo marks on the riser can be used a sighting references points, much like using a sight.

Again, where do you draw the line?

Who said "and can be shot in a Trad event as a longbow." and at what club/trad shoots have these bows been accepted.

To introduce a new category is not as simple as it may appear. An exacting description needs to be written so there are no grey areas.

Who do you get to write the description?

If you read the attachment written for the I L A A it may give you some idea of what is involved.

Definition of the Longbow.doc

(126 KiB) Downloaded 223 times

Daryl.

[Scrub Bull]

Just a reminder to keep your comments civilised on this page thank you.
Already had a number of complaints about one post that we had to take down.
Admin.

[Kendaric]

that you have had difficulty personally with your particular bow

I can understand why that may appear the case. I am not a polarized as I appear. I own and shoot all three types of bow, and I shoot them all effectively. I am not a competitive shooter, though like to see how I am going compared to the next guy with the same bow, and I enjoy the camaraderie at such shoots, which is what makes it so much fun. The organizers do a great job. I can't say that I shoot my reflex deflex longbow any better than my straight longbow.

I can appreciate that the bows I have offered as examples may be extreme and probably wouldn't be offered up at a shoot, but it just highlights how much the current system could be abused. Whilst I may be mistaken, of the Trad shoots I have attended, it seems to be pretty much "anything goes". But don't take offence at that either, as I see that as a strength too, and brings people into the fold. I would think that at most Trad shoots, it is about the event, with like minded people, not about what you shoot per say.

As to guidelines being difficult to implement or set up - the work/definitions has already been done by the ABA's distinctions of longbow types. Though perhaps the ABA is a poor example as they have more divisions and grades than you can poke a stick at.

I am a little surprised how this suggestion has offended some, as I am not the only person that thinks more distinction should be drawn - but that is not what I am getting here, so maybe I am mistaken.

But then perhaps I am to blame for that as perhaps my writing style is coming across the wrong way, something that I am not seeing myself as it reads differently in my head.

[shaftcaster]

I shoot all types myself and a modern longbow is my latest favourite.

Here in WA opting for Trad Division within ABA is entirely decided by arrow choice [ie. wood arrows decide] . I am assuming this is Oz wide ????
Whenever I hunt and shoot with recurve buddies I will shoot alloy and enjoy this also
.
Lately whilst attending shoots I have taken to arrive with two longbows in the car 1/ my favourite hybrid[A&H] and 2/ my Hill style ASL[Bama] with modern and trad arrows, and if the judicial persons are unclear then out comes the whichever satisfies their criteria.

Some things just seem to get made complicated and life is short ........
Cheers Shaftcaster------------------