I don't understand why so many trad shooters display such a hatred to the compound shooters . Without going into the merrits of either camp which seem to bring out the worst in people we need to realize that both will be around no matter what you think or say unless you turn the other camp into an enemy camp.Then we can loose what we have now.
It seems that the compound shooters are very open to the traditional shooters choice.It is a shame that this is not a two way street.
There is lots of room for both and if it ever came to a pushing match with the lawmakers the trad shooters are vastly outnumbered.We do not need them to turn against us and have them loby against our choices.
By showing such bitterness the results will come back to haunt you in the future.
Hunting is an outdoor sportsmans fraternity.We need to welcome all that participate in it regardless of their choices.
I am a trad shooter that made the switch from the other side, like many of you,but I welcome any hunter into my camp.I don't understand this sillyness.We are in a free world that allows choices.The debates/arguements are self destructive.
When we see bitter coments based on someones equipment it divides us and the anger spreads.Would you refuse a helping hand or tow if you were stuck and saw the other guys gear was diferent ? of course not.Would you offer a coffee to someone that wandered into your camp and he had a diferent style of bow? I certainly hope so or would you like to be the one that was wandering into their camp and have a cold reception because of your choices.
It would seem that we only dislike these other guys when it is convenient.
How about if the other guy refused to associate with you or offer a hand when you needed one?This is where the bitterness leads to.
We see it with Motorcycles , the Harley clubs won't associate with the Jap Bikes.They drive past if someone is in need because they made a diferent choice of Ride.We see childern act like this if a kid has clothes or shoes or a bycicle that are not the trend or latest fashion.
We do not loose any oportunity to hunt ot take game because someone uses a diferent way of hunting.
Because we are a minority we need to think long and hard before we bash the other camp unless you are prepared for them to do the same, and that would not be good for traditional bow hunting.
Enjoy your sport and make friends with the others that also love the outdoors.There is lots of room for everyone.This bitterness only drives the others away with resentment that can come back to haunt you.
Most of all STOP THE SILLYNESS and be a SPORTSMAN.
why the bitterness
Moderator: Moderators
Pete.
some guys take things to seriously.
Like you I like to shoot alsorts, trad, wheelies, carbon, fibreglass.
I'ts all part of the wheel of life and technology.
Hey the first man probly started just throwing rocks, then progressed to sticks, then sharpened the point, then made a tip from stone, then had a brain wave and put sinue on a stick and put the other stick on it and away he went and so goes the story until we end up here today with the vast variety of impliments that we now hunt with. It is just human instinct to always go one better then yesterday.
Am I not right??
Even if you choose to stay with the trad and not progress to wheels you are still always trying to go one better then yesterday. Wether it be the wood you use, or the string you use, and we all know that we are all always playing around with our arrows so that they fly better.
So lets not get nasty
about it, we all have our faults (I have heaps).
Mick
Notquiterhood and his not so merry men...
thought I cut and paste this here as well
some guys take things to seriously.
Like you I like to shoot alsorts, trad, wheelies, carbon, fibreglass.
I'ts all part of the wheel of life and technology.
Hey the first man probly started just throwing rocks, then progressed to sticks, then sharpened the point, then made a tip from stone, then had a brain wave and put sinue on a stick and put the other stick on it and away he went and so goes the story until we end up here today with the vast variety of impliments that we now hunt with. It is just human instinct to always go one better then yesterday.
Am I not right??
Even if you choose to stay with the trad and not progress to wheels you are still always trying to go one better then yesterday. Wether it be the wood you use, or the string you use, and we all know that we are all always playing around with our arrows so that they fly better.
So lets not get nasty
about it, we all have our faults (I have heaps). Mick
Notquiterhood and his not so merry men...
thought I cut and paste this here as well
Bow Hunting is my Passion.
My wife says it's my Obsession.
Either way I'm happy.
My wife says it's my Obsession.
Either way I'm happy.
Pete. W
I have found that at the club that I shoot at at the moment, I have felt more segregated from some of the people shooting wheels then any other style of shooter there. I've had more of a good freindship and shooting fun with the trad guys while they shoot their sticks and curves and I shooting my wheels.
And trust me they have put me to shame many a time before, when they shoot bulls eyes on 3d targets at 40 plus meters.
I find that some of not all of the guys that are shooting wheels, especialy a couple of the top archers there are to snobby to bother with you unless you are shooting really high scores and have all the right equipment. Most of these people are shooting scopes, release, long bar growths and knitting needles.
While the other wheelie guys that are shooting bare bow as well as sighted are the oposite to them, and just as helpful as the trad guys as some of them shoot sticks of some description to.
I have found more help in setting up my spacebow and selection af equipment for it from the trad guys.
Go figure
One of the main reasons I tried my hand at trad shooting is because of this fact. And the friendlyness and helpfulness of the guys, two in particular you may have heard of them Hans Moulder and Allan Murray. Hans is full on into the trad thing being a member of the Medievil Society and all he even looks medievil
(he's been nice enough to offer to make me a nice back quiver for a great price) and is always willing to answer questions about anything.
It's guys like this that make my day and make me want to shoot more and more. I now have the problem of choosing what to shoot at the club each time. What I've started to do is shoot one round wheels and the other trad in no particular order.
Just my $100 dolars worth. (beat that Doug)
Mick
like I said before lets kiss and make up
How about if the other guy refused to associate with you or offer a hand when you needed one?This is where the bitterness leads to.
We see it with Motorcycles , the Harley clubs won't associate with the Jap Bikes.They drive past if someone is in need because they made a diferent choice of Ride.We see childern act like this if a kid has clothes or shoes or a bycicle that are not the trend or latest fashion.
I have found that at the club that I shoot at at the moment, I have felt more segregated from some of the people shooting wheels then any other style of shooter there. I've had more of a good freindship and shooting fun with the trad guys while they shoot their sticks and curves and I shooting my wheels.
And trust me they have put me to shame many a time before, when they shoot bulls eyes on 3d targets at 40 plus meters.
I find that some of not all of the guys that are shooting wheels, especialy a couple of the top archers there are to snobby to bother with you unless you are shooting really high scores and have all the right equipment. Most of these people are shooting scopes, release, long bar growths and knitting needles.
While the other wheelie guys that are shooting bare bow as well as sighted are the oposite to them, and just as helpful as the trad guys as some of them shoot sticks of some description to.
I have found more help in setting up my spacebow and selection af equipment for it from the trad guys.
Go figure
One of the main reasons I tried my hand at trad shooting is because of this fact. And the friendlyness and helpfulness of the guys, two in particular you may have heard of them Hans Moulder and Allan Murray. Hans is full on into the trad thing being a member of the Medievil Society and all he even looks medievil
(he's been nice enough to offer to make me a nice back quiver for a great price) and is always willing to answer questions about anything.It's guys like this that make my day and make me want to shoot more and more. I now have the problem of choosing what to shoot at the club each time. What I've started to do is shoot one round wheels and the other trad in no particular order.
Just my $100 dolars worth. (beat that Doug)
Mick
like I said before lets kiss and make up
Bow Hunting is my Passion.
My wife says it's my Obsession.
Either way I'm happy.
My wife says it's my Obsession.
Either way I'm happy.
I have to admit, I went through a short period of really disliking veritical crossbows, but these days I just recognise them as a different style of hunting... one that I'm personally not interested in.
I agree though on the campfire thing. For me who I'll have a laugh with around teh fire has more to do with the individual than what they shoot, and how they hunt. I had great fun with the bowgang VC guys up north around the fire.
Pete, I think part of your question also may be answered by understanding why is it that some hunters who use a rifle or a VC to shoot a prize game, then take a photo of themselves with a trad bow? How come you never get traddies doing the opposite - swapping their longbows for a VC or a rifle for the photo?
I agree though on the campfire thing. For me who I'll have a laugh with around teh fire has more to do with the individual than what they shoot, and how they hunt. I had great fun with the bowgang VC guys up north around the fire.
Pete, I think part of your question also may be answered by understanding why is it that some hunters who use a rifle or a VC to shoot a prize game, then take a photo of themselves with a trad bow? How come you never get traddies doing the opposite - swapping their longbows for a VC or a rifle for the photo?
Last edited by hubris on Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Saul 'Winks at Goats' & 'Paddles from Crocs'
Pete, I'm a little confused.I don't understand why so many trad shooters display such hatred to the compound shooters
I was wondering if this statement is derived from your personal experience? Or weather it's a reflection of what your reading on this forum?
Because although I won't deny the existence of ill feelings from both sides no matter where in the world you are, I can't help but wonder if you may have mistaken some of the harmless "repartee and riposte" that some of us carry on with as a true indication of our thoughts as a whole?
I can't speak for everyone of course, but I would wager that if you asked anyone on here their opinions of compounds the responses would vary from " Yeah I own one of those as well.......†down to " They ain't for me, I wouldn't use one but I don't hate the people who do". Australia’s bow hunting community, be it trad or high tech, is relatively small compared to other countries and we can't afford to be 'in fighting'.
I have been shooting competitive 3D for 4 or so years now and have mixed with all sorts of shooters, and apart from the occasional sarcastic jibe here and there (all in good fun, and they usually get an equally harmless retort
) I can't say I have ever had a bad experience (or heard of one) that has come from a disagreement on equipment choice.*These comments are taken from my personal experiences and should not be taken as a generalisation of everbody's views.
Thanks
Buford
Stupid TV! Be more funny!
Pete, guys,
Just to share my own perspective... As usual
I have never shot a compound. My whole life (well... since I was six years old) has been spent shooting recurves, longbows, selfbows off and on. I've gotten a whole lot of different reactions from "serious" shooters over the years. Those reactions range from surprise to cynicism to disbelief. Some reactions have been about as negative as you can imagine... And some quite positve - reminding them of the simplicity and romance of shooting in their own younger years.
None of this has bothered me and it never will. I personally prefer traditional weapons and would like to see everyone use them. I also personally think they are the best choice for a number of reasons. But that's simply my personal choice... Part of my personality. And I do have a very strong personality!
But as long as someone's choices with their equipment are ethical (when it comes to hunting) I really don't care! It's all on a spectrum anyway. Whether compound or glass laminate or selfbow we are all archers.
As long as the attitude is right and the mutual respect is there I am pleased to share a campfire with you... And a little friendly ribbing shouldn't be a problem.
-doug
Just to share my own perspective... As usual
I have never shot a compound. My whole life (well... since I was six years old) has been spent shooting recurves, longbows, selfbows off and on. I've gotten a whole lot of different reactions from "serious" shooters over the years. Those reactions range from surprise to cynicism to disbelief. Some reactions have been about as negative as you can imagine... And some quite positve - reminding them of the simplicity and romance of shooting in their own younger years.
None of this has bothered me and it never will. I personally prefer traditional weapons and would like to see everyone use them. I also personally think they are the best choice for a number of reasons. But that's simply my personal choice... Part of my personality. And I do have a very strong personality!
But as long as someone's choices with their equipment are ethical (when it comes to hunting) I really don't care! It's all on a spectrum anyway. Whether compound or glass laminate or selfbow we are all archers.
As long as the attitude is right and the mutual respect is there I am pleased to share a campfire with you... And a little friendly ribbing shouldn't be a problem.
-doug
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I sort of have to agree with Pete's observations- to an extent anyway. There seems to be a segment of the trad population (and your mileage may vary) that looks down it's collective nose at compounders. Maybe it's more of a North American thing. And yes wrc, I've witnessed it personally. This forum is surprisingly free of that sort of drivel- unlike some internet sites who's members occassionally drift off on some irrational rant about wheel shooters shooting high let off bows, low weight arrows, scopes , releases, laser guided aids, etc. It's almost embarassing to read.
Of course you also get the odd few techie types who view "trad" gear as kid's toys and the shooters of such as game wounders and incompetents. But this groups seems to be smaller in size than the compound haters.
Most of the people I shoot and hunt with are compound shooters. There is the usual good natured harassment that flows between bowmen of any ilk, whether at a 3D shoot or hunting camp, but there is always that tone of respect at a good shot made, be it with recurve or compound.
I actually prefer to shoot 3D rounds with compounders (or a mix of both)because it ups my game a bit. I find I slip into the "zone" easier and I must confess that I take a certain perverse pleasure in blowing a nock off one of their arrows. At one shoot I was with 4 compounders and had been shooting most of the stations from their pegs (because the shots were longer but easier ) and as we pulled our arrows and moved from one target to the next I overheard one of the comp guys say to the other " it's nice to see somebody who can really shoot one of those bows". I've never heard a trad guy say that about a wheel bow shooter.
RC
Of course you also get the odd few techie types who view "trad" gear as kid's toys and the shooters of such as game wounders and incompetents. But this groups seems to be smaller in size than the compound haters.
Most of the people I shoot and hunt with are compound shooters. There is the usual good natured harassment that flows between bowmen of any ilk, whether at a 3D shoot or hunting camp, but there is always that tone of respect at a good shot made, be it with recurve or compound.
I actually prefer to shoot 3D rounds with compounders (or a mix of both)because it ups my game a bit. I find I slip into the "zone" easier and I must confess that I take a certain perverse pleasure in blowing a nock off one of their arrows.
At one shoot I was with 4 compounders and had been shooting most of the stations from their pegs (because the shots were longer but easier ) and as we pulled our arrows and moved from one target to the next I overheard one of the comp guys say to the other " it's nice to see somebody who can really shoot one of those bows". I've never heard a trad guy say that about a wheel bow shooter.RC
That which doesn't kill me better run for cover...
Mate the only thing I would like to add is that it's all very good to chat about 3D shooting on the target range, but when it comes to the realities of hunting, I do believe VCs have done damage to the traditional bowhunters by false association.
Only yesterday I was chatting to these cops who were told that a "Crazy guy with one of those compound bows" is hanging around down the river. When they came up close - with their guns out they asked me to put down the bow - one of them said "Hey, it's ok, it's a real bow, not one of those compounds". They both looked relieved, which made me chuckle to myself thinking of how dangerous Dave Whiting was with his longbow - popping rabbits in the heads while the VC shooters called out "It's MINE It's MINE - WHACK! It's MINE It's MINE - WHACK! It's MINE It's MINE - WHACK!" Anyhow I'm wandering now...
Whether you like it or not, maybe it's too many rambo movies, or pictures of VC shooters on the fronts of mags with dead animals, it's created an image of "Camo'd up Rambo Wanna-be Psychos" in the public mind which means us traddies have to spend 5 minutes everytime calming them down and letting them know we're using the traditional bows. That's what I think also upsets the traddies.
Kimall once said to Tracker that when he meets a property owner for the first time he tries to get the words "No Dogs No Guns" out as fast as possible. This is because - I assume - he doesn't want to be associated with them with the property owner. When I go to properties I try and get the words "No Dogs No Guns No Compounds" out as fast as possible, because I've found farmers are concerned about the compound "Shooting Types".
Like I said in my first post, I think you''ll find it has nothing to do with individuals, but more to do with associations with real stereotypes. Mate you're always welcome to come hunting with me "trad style"
Only yesterday I was chatting to these cops who were told that a "Crazy guy with one of those compound bows" is hanging around down the river. When they came up close - with their guns out they asked me to put down the bow - one of them said "Hey, it's ok, it's a real bow, not one of those compounds". They both looked relieved, which made me chuckle to myself thinking of how dangerous Dave Whiting was with his longbow - popping rabbits in the heads while the VC shooters called out "It's MINE It's MINE - WHACK! It's MINE It's MINE - WHACK! It's MINE It's MINE - WHACK!" Anyhow I'm wandering now...
Whether you like it or not, maybe it's too many rambo movies, or pictures of VC shooters on the fronts of mags with dead animals, it's created an image of "Camo'd up Rambo Wanna-be Psychos" in the public mind which means us traddies have to spend 5 minutes everytime calming them down and letting them know we're using the traditional bows. That's what I think also upsets the traddies.
Kimall once said to Tracker that when he meets a property owner for the first time he tries to get the words "No Dogs No Guns" out as fast as possible. This is because - I assume - he doesn't want to be associated with them with the property owner. When I go to properties I try and get the words "No Dogs No Guns No Compounds" out as fast as possible, because I've found farmers are concerned about the compound "Shooting Types".
Like I said in my first post, I think you''ll find it has nothing to do with individuals, but more to do with associations with real stereotypes. Mate you're always welcome to come hunting with me "trad style"
Last edited by hubris on Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
Saul 'Winks at Goats' & 'Paddles from Crocs'
Guys,
I also think a significant part of the negative attitude some trad shooters have towards compounds is because of the crap we have been given in years gone by from compound shooters... In the days when virtually noone shot trad gear any more. Hell, for nearly ten years I just didn't visit a club or see any other archers! Just couldn't find someone else shooting a stick or recurve. Buying a recurve or longbow wasn't easy back then.
Personally, I think the best way to approach proprety owners is with a selfbow Especially if they have kids ;P
Anyway - off to pick the grey hairs outta my beard ;]
-doug
I also think a significant part of the negative attitude some trad shooters have towards compounds is because of the crap we have been given in years gone by from compound shooters... In the days when virtually noone shot trad gear any more. Hell, for nearly ten years I just didn't visit a club or see any other archers! Just couldn't find someone else shooting a stick or recurve. Buying a recurve or longbow wasn't easy back then.
Personally, I think the best way to approach proprety owners is with a selfbow
Especially if they have kids ;PAnyway - off to pick the grey hairs outta my beard ;]
-doug
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Mate, I understand what you’re saying. But having never taken an animal with a bow, I can't comment on the negative (or otherwise) effect of with you speak. I'm only stating what I have experienced.Mate the only thing I would like to add is that it's all very good to chat about 3D shooting on the target range, but when it comes to the realities of hunting, I do believe VCs have done damage to the traditional bow hunters by false association.
Only yesterday I was chatting to these cops who were told that a "Crazy guy with one of those compound bows" is hanging around down the river.
I'm sorry to hear that you have to witness that sort of thing.There seems to be a segment of the trad population (and your mileage may vary) that looks down its collective nose at compounders. Maybe it's more of a North American thing. And yes wrc, I've witnessed it personally.
I can honestly say that in my limited experience (time wise) I have never seen a trad shooter seriously, as apposed to a harmless jibe, have such a narrow mind towards a compound shooter. I have seen spiteful exchanges between the two in regards to personality clashes, but never based on equipment selection.It's a shame that there is such a division between what in fact are two very closely related groups.
It would be like black powder rifle shooters getting upset with someone who shoots a cartridge/ casing style of bullet. It's just a technological advancement.
It doesn't mean the older style is any less effective, just a little more primitive. Seems silly to want to disregard history. And on the other side of the fence..... silly not to accept (that doesn't mean to adopt as well) a change for the engineering achievement it is.
Buford
Stupid TV! Be more funny!
Gday wrc.555,
I'd actually argue that it's more than just a simple technological advancement. Sometimes the smallest advancement in technology can make a huge difference and change everything. The difference between shooting the rifle and those that preceed it is huge.
Likewise the difference between a VC and a tradbow are:
1. You don't have to pull the full load. Hell, my petite girly wife pulls more poundage than most VC shooters with her 30# bow!
2. You can hold it indefinitely (pretty much).
3. You have little dots which you put on the target and you KNOW it will hit it.
4. You have a trigger which releases it perfectly everytime.
I know not every VC user uses all of these, but they all make HUGE differences to the realities of hunting.
1. It took me 2weeks of slow pulling (MY STRING!
) to be able to draw my 50#bow wihtout any stress.
2. It took me a couple of months to learn to release cleanly.
3. It's taken me 5 months of constant practice to train my brain to get a 4"grouping at 15m.
In the next 2weeks I'll be getting a new 70# bow, which I can only move up to now after spending those months becoming competent with the 50# bow.
You talk about minor advancements... but in practice they are not minor at all. All of these things completely determine the way you hunt.
All of these small technological advancements put less skill and training requirements on the hunter, and instead the bow does it for you.
I'm relatively only a new bowhunter, and not necessarily the best person to make these comments, but like I said before - I have absolutely nothing personal against VC shooters, gun shooters, or even RPG shooters. I just think to say they are the same thing is to show a misunderstanding and disrespect for those 'small' advancements that took hundreds - and in some cases - thousands of years to invent, as well as for the skills required by our ancestors who didn't have them.
Excuse the grammar and spelling mistakes... doing work... well, supposed to be
I'd actually argue that it's more than just a simple technological advancement. Sometimes the smallest advancement in technology can make a huge difference and change everything. The difference between shooting the rifle and those that preceed it is huge.
Likewise the difference between a VC and a tradbow are:
1. You don't have to pull the full load. Hell, my petite girly wife pulls more poundage than most VC shooters with her 30# bow!
2. You can hold it indefinitely (pretty much).
3. You have little dots which you put on the target and you KNOW it will hit it.
4. You have a trigger which releases it perfectly everytime.
I know not every VC user uses all of these, but they all make HUGE differences to the realities of hunting.
1. It took me 2weeks of slow pulling (MY STRING!
) to be able to draw my 50#bow wihtout any stress.2. It took me a couple of months to learn to release cleanly.
3. It's taken me 5 months of constant practice to train my brain to get a 4"grouping at 15m.
In the next 2weeks I'll be getting a new 70# bow, which I can only move up to now after spending those months becoming competent with the 50# bow.
You talk about minor advancements... but in practice they are not minor at all. All of these things completely determine the way you hunt.
All of these small technological advancements put less skill and training requirements on the hunter, and instead the bow does it for you.
I'm relatively only a new bowhunter, and not necessarily the best person to make these comments, but like I said before - I have absolutely nothing personal against VC shooters, gun shooters, or even RPG shooters. I just think to say they are the same thing is to show a misunderstanding and disrespect for those 'small' advancements that took hundreds - and in some cases - thousands of years to invent, as well as for the skills required by our ancestors who didn't have them.
Excuse the grammar and spelling mistakes... doing work... well, supposed to be
Saul 'Winks at Goats' & 'Paddles from Crocs'
Funny, i don't recall saying it's the same thing?I just think to say they are the same thing is to show a misunderstanding and disrespect for those 'small' advancements that took hundreds - and in some cases - thousands of years to invent, as well as for the skills required by our ancestors who didn't have
I said they are closely related. Maybe I should have said that it's two different methods of getting an arrow to a target?
Nor did I say they were small advancements.
I'm sorry if you think I was trying/ succeeding to be disrespectful of skill levels required by trad shooters. I re-read my post before and after I posted it and I thought the sentance..... "Seems silly to want to disregard history." covered that angle?
If anyone else thinks I was out of line, please say so and I will retract it.
thanks.
buford
Stupid TV! Be more funny!
Tracker gave me a call freaking 
that this might start WWIII and drop into that standard flinging of arguments, and he's probably right...
Hey wrc... seriously... no bitter feelings here at all.
Re-reading I probably did read your last post a little too fast. Sorry.
I'll leave it at that.
that this might start WWIII and drop into that standard flinging of arguments, and he's probably right... Hey wrc... seriously... no bitter feelings here at all.
Re-reading I probably did read your last post a little too fast. Sorry.
I'll leave it at that.
Saul 'Winks at Goats' & 'Paddles from Crocs'
Hey Hubris,
I don't think this topic is on the verge of warfare. It's an honest debate (or maybe more of a heart felt rendering of opinions) based on the observances and preceptions of a diverse group of people.
Every one probably has their own horror stories about one gear type or other. But IMO, regarding hunting, people are getting too hung up on the equipment, equating ease of hitting the mark with easier hunting. The kill is the easy part, it's the sneaking up on the critter and setting up for the shot that takes skill. And saying all compounders take 50 metre and better shots so they must be less of a woodsman is, for the most part, pure BS. At least based on my experience with the people I hunt with. My mate, who's a finger release, 4 pin compound user, can play holy hell on targets out to 50 yards and beyond, and has yet to take an animal past 25 yards, I've killed deer out to 33. Who's the better hunter? I submit he is.
Sure it takes more dedication to become proficient with the old stick and string but that is also a personal decision one makes to pursue that route. Some people just like varying degrees of gadgets to fiddle with, and personally, I'm not one to go crusading, seeking to convert the perceived heathens to my way of thinking. Trad doesn't automatically grant one the moral high ground.
I guess I've had the good fortune to meet very few snobs from either side of the fence. They exist, but I just haven't had to run them over yet .
Run what ya brung...
RC
I don't think this topic is on the verge of warfare. It's an honest debate (or maybe more of a heart felt rendering of opinions) based on the observances and preceptions of a diverse group of people.
Every one probably has their own horror stories about one gear type or other. But IMO, regarding hunting, people are getting too hung up on the equipment, equating ease of hitting the mark with easier hunting. The kill is the easy part, it's the sneaking up on the critter and setting up for the shot that takes skill. And saying all compounders take 50 metre and better shots so they must be less of a woodsman is, for the most part, pure BS. At least based on my experience with the people I hunt with. My mate, who's a finger release, 4 pin compound user, can play holy hell on targets out to 50 yards and beyond, and has yet to take an animal past 25 yards, I've killed deer out to 33. Who's the better hunter? I submit he is.
Sure it takes more dedication to become proficient with the old stick and string but that is also a personal decision one makes to pursue that route. Some people just like varying degrees of gadgets to fiddle with, and personally, I'm not one to go crusading, seeking to convert the perceived heathens to my way of thinking. Trad doesn't automatically grant one the moral high ground.
I guess I've had the good fortune to meet very few snobs from either side of the fence. They exist, but I just haven't had to run them over yet
. Run what ya brung...
RC
That which doesn't kill me better run for cover...
RC,
-doug
LMAO! I am gonna remember that one and plagarise it to hell and back!I guess I've had the good fortune to meet very few snobs from either side of the fence. They exist, but I just haven't had to run them over yet
-doug
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Mate, no need to say sorry.hubris wrote:Hey wrc... seriously... no bitter feelings here at all.
Re-reading I probably did read your last post a little too fast. Sorry.
I'll leave it at that.
After thinking about it, I kinda figured it was just a misunderstanding on both sides.
I wasn't trying to convert you to compounds!
The point I was trying to make was the same one Jeff was talking about in another topic.
That was all mate.Mr. Jeff wrote:The simple fact is this, if you place a razor sharp broadhead shot from a trad bow into the vitals of an animal it will die very quickly and humanely. The same would be the case if you did it with a compound bow. The same can be said if you placed a bullet shot from a rifle into the vitals on an animal.
In all three scenarios the animal dies both quickly and humanely. This means all the above equipment was just as lethal/deadly as the other
I agree with you about how it takes less practice with a compound and all.
I'm on your side buddy. buford
Stupid TV! Be more funny!
RC, great to see you posting again, and thanks for the input from a very experienced bowhunter from over the pond!
Just one geberal observation from moi: referring to compounds as vertical crossbows is a perhaps, legitimate observation to make once in passing, but when it's done routinely it gives maybe the lie to our prejudices? Shoot what you love shooting, and judge the guy next to you by how he shoots, not what sort of bow he does it with.
cheers,
Erron
Just one geberal observation from moi: referring to compounds as vertical crossbows is a perhaps, legitimate observation to make once in passing, but when it's done routinely it gives maybe the lie to our prejudices? Shoot what you love shooting, and judge the guy next to you by how he shoots, not what sort of bow he does it with.
cheers,
Erron
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Stickbow Hunter
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- Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 8:33 pm
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I wasn’t going to respond to this thread because I thought it would have a negative outcome but it seems I was mistaken. The responses seem to have been honest and from the hearts of the posters. Most importantly respect has been shown toward each other. Thanks fellas as it has been good to read your opinions.
I will take the easy way out and just post my answer to a question that was asked of me a number of years ago now in an interview in the old Australian Bowhunter magazine. It sums up my views on this subject well.
Sadly, going by articles published in Aussie bowhunting magazines in recent times, I have seen nothing that changes the opinions that were given in this interview. Sorry it is rather long.
Jeff
Q. You have been known to speak out about equipment limitations and have received some criticism for doing so. Would you care to make further comment about this?
A. Bowhunting has come to us from a long way back. As we bowhunt, we preserve and pass on an ethical heritage passed down to us over untold generations of bowhunters through thousands of years. From within this ethical heritage comes a set of very important traditions which must be adhered to and passed on to each new generation of bowhunters as part of our responsibility to that heritage.
These traditions include; careful choice of equipment, serious investment of time to learn to use chosen equipment properly, ascertaining the limitations of one's shooting ability and that of equipment, honing shooting skills, learning the habits of the game hunted, having care and concern for the game, learning good bushcraft and always conducting oneself in a proper and ethical manner. All these things accumulate into what I term our ethical traditions. These ethical traditions not only support bowhunting, but also our fellow bowhunters and our future. They are at the heart of our proper care and respect for the animals we hunt.
I honestly feel that our bowhunting heritage is being sold out - sold out by some money hungry archery manufacturers and high profile bow shooters obsessed with personal recognition where the animals they kill appear to be only the means to that end.
There seems to be a never ending stream of gimmicks and gadgets being touted as 'must have' if you want to kill game (as distinct from hunting game). They would have you believe that you can buy your bowhunting success. Appallingly, they try to justify this on the grounds of 'humane killing'.
Those new to the sport are particularly vulnerable to this kind of inexcusable hogwash. All emphasis is placed on the killing of game, any way you can, and little regard is shown for the traditions mentioned above.
Today there are replaceable blade broadheads so there is no need to know how to sharpen a broadhead. Lighted sight pins, lasers and other aiming devices eliminate the need to develop shooting skills; range finders eliminate the need to judge distance; tracking devices eliminate the necessity for learning bushcraft skills necessary to track game; compound bow let-off has increased to a point where the draw weight can be held by hand at full draw for very long periods of time or simply attach a locking device which holds the bow at full draw till the game arrives, removing the need to even draw the bow. When you are ready to shoot just pull the trigger. This is, in function, a vertical crossbow. Only the stock is missing.
The list goes on and on with such other things as game monitors and heat seeking devices to locate game, hearing enhancing devices, etc. etc. etc..
I cannot accept that this 'anything goes' attitude should be an accepted part of bowhunting. It is the deepest betrayal of our ethical traditions.
These things have all but eliminated the need for bushcraft skills. What we really have is people who call themselves bowhunters but, who by their practices, show that they only give lip service to bowhunting ethics.
Our heritage - the bushcraft and hunting skills which were so important to earlier bowhunters - has been cast aside. The ambition to kill something has overridden respect and reverence for our heritage.
I will say this quite clearly - it is a problem of ethics - as much as it is about equipment. They are removing the hunting from bowhunting and turning it into live target shooting.
However, I do know bowhunters who shoot high tech equipment who are far better hunters then I'll ever be. But these bowhunters happen to hold true to, and believe in our ethical heritage and traditions, and do not compromise them to personal ambition. Sadly I feel this cannot be said about an ever growing number of people in bowhunting.
To me, bowhunting is about accepting the challenge of a severe limitation upon one's ability to take game. I don't hide the fact that I believe the limiting of one's equipment is a major part of this.
I won't hunt with anything other than traditional equipment. I don't have any concerns about the capabilities of my chosen equipment. It is every bit as effective as any other bow if used within its limitations. However, traditional equipment most definitely isn't for everyone.
The old adage that we owe it to the animals we hunt to use the most efficient equipment available, which many proponents of high tech gear use as a justification for the use of such equipment, doesn't hold water. If they truly subscribed to this highly suspect belief, then they would be using a high powered centre-fire rifle with telescopic sights to hunt.
Ethically, the only good shot is one where a quick killing shot is probable. If you cannot say to yourself before you take the shot that it is probable that it will kill an animal rather than possible it will kill it, then the shot MUST NOT be taken.
High tech equipment is being used to take risky shots at game at almost rifle distances where the time lag between the arrow being loosed and the time it takes to reach the animal gives the animal a lot of time to move after hearing the arrow being loosed (jumping the string). The speed of sound is more than three times the speed of the very fastest arrows. Take a look at many bowhunting videos. The shots are so long that many of the animals are already moving well before the arrow is anywhere near them.
The lightweight low momentum arrows used to produce the flatter trajectories needed for such shooting have shed the major part of their velocity and kinetic energy. You can actually see the poor arrow penetration because of the arrow's low momentum - often too far back to produce any sort of quickly lethal hit.
Light arrows are the boon of target archers but the bane of bowhunters.
The probability of a first arrow killing shot is being reduced to less than a possibility because people have great faith in their equipment which they absorb from advertising spiel, but lack the ability from dedicated training to use it, and haven't the patience or forbearance to get closer or not take the shot.
If we are to remain bowhunters by preference we have an ethical obligation to effect a quick humane kill. Reliance upon shooting all the latest high tech gear will not ensure that such a kill results. Understanding the limitations of your ability and that of your equipment and using it within those limitations is what brings about the quick kill.
My opinions will be seen by some - as they have in the past - as critical, divisive and very negative. They have even been publicly pilloried as treason to the sport by one well known bow shooter who, when the chips were down, resorted to using a rifle on his bowhunting trip to get one of his trophies rather than go home without it. His foremost concern was getting his money's worth. When the bowhunting gets tough . . .
I certainly don't like controversy but I will stand up for something I believe in if I feel it is being threatened; and it is my right to do so. I know a number of bowhunters who simply state "I'm not interested in politics. I don't care what others are doing, I just want to shoot my bow" - the old 'sticking ones head in the sand (ostrich) trick'.
Heated debate within bowhunting brings issues to the forefront and requires people to reflect on what they believe and why they do it. That is proper and it is constructive. If we are not forced to face our weaknesses and our contradictions, then we are doomed to suffer defeat when opponents use them against us.
Maybe some day - when bowhunting's ostriches are having to justify bowhunting and the conduct of those in it to some government department - they will care. The future of bowhunting will be won or lost through politics whether we like it or not, and it will be by non-hunters who must be convinced of our ethical values.
It is not the choice of one's preferred bowhunting equipment that is at the heart of my concerns. It is the direction which bowhunting is going and what it stands for. I believe that the conscientious practice of our ETHICAL TRADITIONS has a direct effect on how people - both from within our own ranks and from outside - view bowhunting. In reality, how these people assess our conduct as bowhunters, will be a determining factor in its future.
I will take the easy way out and just post my answer to a question that was asked of me a number of years ago now in an interview in the old Australian Bowhunter magazine. It sums up my views on this subject well.
Sadly, going by articles published in Aussie bowhunting magazines in recent times, I have seen nothing that changes the opinions that were given in this interview. Sorry it is rather long.
Jeff
Q. You have been known to speak out about equipment limitations and have received some criticism for doing so. Would you care to make further comment about this?
A. Bowhunting has come to us from a long way back. As we bowhunt, we preserve and pass on an ethical heritage passed down to us over untold generations of bowhunters through thousands of years. From within this ethical heritage comes a set of very important traditions which must be adhered to and passed on to each new generation of bowhunters as part of our responsibility to that heritage.
These traditions include; careful choice of equipment, serious investment of time to learn to use chosen equipment properly, ascertaining the limitations of one's shooting ability and that of equipment, honing shooting skills, learning the habits of the game hunted, having care and concern for the game, learning good bushcraft and always conducting oneself in a proper and ethical manner. All these things accumulate into what I term our ethical traditions. These ethical traditions not only support bowhunting, but also our fellow bowhunters and our future. They are at the heart of our proper care and respect for the animals we hunt.
I honestly feel that our bowhunting heritage is being sold out - sold out by some money hungry archery manufacturers and high profile bow shooters obsessed with personal recognition where the animals they kill appear to be only the means to that end.
There seems to be a never ending stream of gimmicks and gadgets being touted as 'must have' if you want to kill game (as distinct from hunting game). They would have you believe that you can buy your bowhunting success. Appallingly, they try to justify this on the grounds of 'humane killing'.
Those new to the sport are particularly vulnerable to this kind of inexcusable hogwash. All emphasis is placed on the killing of game, any way you can, and little regard is shown for the traditions mentioned above.
Today there are replaceable blade broadheads so there is no need to know how to sharpen a broadhead. Lighted sight pins, lasers and other aiming devices eliminate the need to develop shooting skills; range finders eliminate the need to judge distance; tracking devices eliminate the necessity for learning bushcraft skills necessary to track game; compound bow let-off has increased to a point where the draw weight can be held by hand at full draw for very long periods of time or simply attach a locking device which holds the bow at full draw till the game arrives, removing the need to even draw the bow. When you are ready to shoot just pull the trigger. This is, in function, a vertical crossbow. Only the stock is missing.
The list goes on and on with such other things as game monitors and heat seeking devices to locate game, hearing enhancing devices, etc. etc. etc..
I cannot accept that this 'anything goes' attitude should be an accepted part of bowhunting. It is the deepest betrayal of our ethical traditions.
These things have all but eliminated the need for bushcraft skills. What we really have is people who call themselves bowhunters but, who by their practices, show that they only give lip service to bowhunting ethics.
Our heritage - the bushcraft and hunting skills which were so important to earlier bowhunters - has been cast aside. The ambition to kill something has overridden respect and reverence for our heritage.
I will say this quite clearly - it is a problem of ethics - as much as it is about equipment. They are removing the hunting from bowhunting and turning it into live target shooting.
However, I do know bowhunters who shoot high tech equipment who are far better hunters then I'll ever be. But these bowhunters happen to hold true to, and believe in our ethical heritage and traditions, and do not compromise them to personal ambition. Sadly I feel this cannot be said about an ever growing number of people in bowhunting.
To me, bowhunting is about accepting the challenge of a severe limitation upon one's ability to take game. I don't hide the fact that I believe the limiting of one's equipment is a major part of this.
I won't hunt with anything other than traditional equipment. I don't have any concerns about the capabilities of my chosen equipment. It is every bit as effective as any other bow if used within its limitations. However, traditional equipment most definitely isn't for everyone.
The old adage that we owe it to the animals we hunt to use the most efficient equipment available, which many proponents of high tech gear use as a justification for the use of such equipment, doesn't hold water. If they truly subscribed to this highly suspect belief, then they would be using a high powered centre-fire rifle with telescopic sights to hunt.
Ethically, the only good shot is one where a quick killing shot is probable. If you cannot say to yourself before you take the shot that it is probable that it will kill an animal rather than possible it will kill it, then the shot MUST NOT be taken.
High tech equipment is being used to take risky shots at game at almost rifle distances where the time lag between the arrow being loosed and the time it takes to reach the animal gives the animal a lot of time to move after hearing the arrow being loosed (jumping the string). The speed of sound is more than three times the speed of the very fastest arrows. Take a look at many bowhunting videos. The shots are so long that many of the animals are already moving well before the arrow is anywhere near them.
The lightweight low momentum arrows used to produce the flatter trajectories needed for such shooting have shed the major part of their velocity and kinetic energy. You can actually see the poor arrow penetration because of the arrow's low momentum - often too far back to produce any sort of quickly lethal hit.
Light arrows are the boon of target archers but the bane of bowhunters.
The probability of a first arrow killing shot is being reduced to less than a possibility because people have great faith in their equipment which they absorb from advertising spiel, but lack the ability from dedicated training to use it, and haven't the patience or forbearance to get closer or not take the shot.
If we are to remain bowhunters by preference we have an ethical obligation to effect a quick humane kill. Reliance upon shooting all the latest high tech gear will not ensure that such a kill results. Understanding the limitations of your ability and that of your equipment and using it within those limitations is what brings about the quick kill.
My opinions will be seen by some - as they have in the past - as critical, divisive and very negative. They have even been publicly pilloried as treason to the sport by one well known bow shooter who, when the chips were down, resorted to using a rifle on his bowhunting trip to get one of his trophies rather than go home without it. His foremost concern was getting his money's worth. When the bowhunting gets tough . . .
I certainly don't like controversy but I will stand up for something I believe in if I feel it is being threatened; and it is my right to do so. I know a number of bowhunters who simply state "I'm not interested in politics. I don't care what others are doing, I just want to shoot my bow" - the old 'sticking ones head in the sand (ostrich) trick'.
Heated debate within bowhunting brings issues to the forefront and requires people to reflect on what they believe and why they do it. That is proper and it is constructive. If we are not forced to face our weaknesses and our contradictions, then we are doomed to suffer defeat when opponents use them against us.
Maybe some day - when bowhunting's ostriches are having to justify bowhunting and the conduct of those in it to some government department - they will care. The future of bowhunting will be won or lost through politics whether we like it or not, and it will be by non-hunters who must be convinced of our ethical values.
It is not the choice of one's preferred bowhunting equipment that is at the heart of my concerns. It is the direction which bowhunting is going and what it stands for. I believe that the conscientious practice of our ETHICAL TRADITIONS has a direct effect on how people - both from within our own ranks and from outside - view bowhunting. In reality, how these people assess our conduct as bowhunters, will be a determining factor in its future.
Ethical Bowhunting
Well gang I wasn't going to post anything on this but I guess that might be like stick'in my head in the sand. I'll just give you a situation that I witnessed last month while in a Buffalo camp. One guy nailed a good bull with a single arrow from about 15 yards with his recurve. The other guy nailed another good bull from 20yards with all the hi-tec gear. Both these guys put in the hard yards to get their buff and both buff went down quickly and cleanly. I think they were just as excited when the other guy got his buff as they were when they took their own.
Jeff,your right when you said " it is a probl;em of ethics as much as it is about equipment." I've always been a strong beleiver that it's the bowhunter behind the bow and not the bow, that makes the bowhunter.
In reality, how these access our conduct as bowhunters, will be a determining factor in it's future. We can all be sure of that mate.
Jeff,your right when you said " it is a probl;em of ethics as much as it is about equipment." I've always been a strong beleiver that it's the bowhunter behind the bow and not the bow, that makes the bowhunter.
In reality, how these access our conduct as bowhunters, will be a determining factor in it's future. We can all be sure of that mate.
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Stickbow Hunter
- Supporter
- Posts: 11637
- Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 8:33 pm
- Location: Maryborough Queensland
Well... sorry - In true Magyar style - I still think you wheelies should be confined to the girlies camp until you can shoot a real bow! hahahah - Hubris disappears into the deep heavy flanny undergrowth (and I'm not talking about the contents of Jeffs jock strap! )
- Hubris disappears into the deep heavy flanny undergrowth (and I'm not talking about the contents of Jeffs jock strap! )Saul 'Winks at Goats' & 'Paddles from Crocs'
kim
That's a good point you make about trad bows and range. I always thought that they were useless when it came to that, until I saw Trackers 72# longbow shoot (with 500g+ arrows!). Apparently, (sorry Erron I know this is a different thread) a 70# turkish flight bow can shoot over 300m - accurately in the right hands?
That's a good point you make about trad bows and range. I always thought that they were useless when it came to that, until I saw Trackers 72# longbow shoot (with 500g+ arrows!). Apparently, (sorry Erron I know this is a different thread) a 70# turkish flight bow can shoot over 300m - accurately in the right hands?
Saul 'Winks at Goats' & 'Paddles from Crocs'
Good post with several really good points about bowhunters. The bow does not make the hunter, I know many good ethical bowhunters and their bow selection has little to do with their abilities or ethics. A good hunter or bad hunter has little to do with bow selection. Ego and commercialisation is one of our biggest problems and an area I do not subscribe to.
One thread on this subject I am concerned about however is the use of the term VC or vertical compounds, as someone who spent way too much time dealing with pollies over the recent compound probition proposal we need to be very careful how the non hunting public sees us.
I am not bagging crossbows but they are very different to a compound. they can be stored loaded and left loaded/cocked. Even with a high letoff compound the shooter has to still maintain pressure on the string and bow for it to remain at full draw.
I was advised by a politician involved with firearms legislation that as archers/bowhunters we should be seen as seperate from crossbows which are on every state goverments hit list. As this person put it allow crossbows to part of your sport and you will be shut down overnight.
Please do not call compounds vertical crossbows, the general public has enough problems with seperating bows from crossbows. We need a clear seperation to maintain our way of life. Using that term will blur the already fuzzy line and probably mean we are subject to the same regulations as crossbows or firearms
Anyone who thinks that legislation will differ between different bows is kidding themselves if compounds go all bows will go.
For the record I have shot compounds for years but have started using a recurve again in the last year. So I have a foot in both camps you might say.
On a slightly different angle of the hunter not the equipment look up the Bowsite.com and check out the live leopard hunt by the webmaster.
Pat Lefemine is a died in the wool traditionalist who used a compound to take a leopard. Read the story and watch the footage before you criticise him. I think it sums up the hunter ethic well, use the best and most appropriate equipment for the job at hand.
His logic for the compound is very sound and I applaud his hard decision.
As someone who has been way too close to a leopard, trust me it was not an ideological decision or an easy one.
veg
One thread on this subject I am concerned about however is the use of the term VC or vertical compounds, as someone who spent way too much time dealing with pollies over the recent compound probition proposal we need to be very careful how the non hunting public sees us.
I am not bagging crossbows but they are very different to a compound. they can be stored loaded and left loaded/cocked. Even with a high letoff compound the shooter has to still maintain pressure on the string and bow for it to remain at full draw.
I was advised by a politician involved with firearms legislation that as archers/bowhunters we should be seen as seperate from crossbows which are on every state goverments hit list. As this person put it allow crossbows to part of your sport and you will be shut down overnight.
Please do not call compounds vertical crossbows, the general public has enough problems with seperating bows from crossbows. We need a clear seperation to maintain our way of life. Using that term will blur the already fuzzy line and probably mean we are subject to the same regulations as crossbows or firearms
Anyone who thinks that legislation will differ between different bows is kidding themselves if compounds go all bows will go.
For the record I have shot compounds for years but have started using a recurve again in the last year. So I have a foot in both camps you might say.
On a slightly different angle of the hunter not the equipment look up the Bowsite.com and check out the live leopard hunt by the webmaster.
Pat Lefemine is a died in the wool traditionalist who used a compound to take a leopard. Read the story and watch the footage before you criticise him. I think it sums up the hunter ethic well, use the best and most appropriate equipment for the job at hand.
His logic for the compound is very sound and I applaud his hard decision.
As someone who has been way too close to a leopard, trust me it was not an ideological decision or an easy one.
veg