why the bitterness

General discussions. Politics, scuttlebutt, whatever: you're getting married, changing jobs, got a gripe or a compliment, dying to get out with the bow etc.....

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Buford
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#61 Post by Buford » Sat Nov 06, 2004 6:17 am

:?
so your saying that instead of trying to have compounds, curves and longbows viewed as a seperate, safe family sport, we should band together with all the other weapons that are already illegal or heavily restricted and just wait for the same to happen?
What your saying, to me, sounds like you think if we all work together that there is some hope of getting the laws changed or relaxed in regards to these weapons and the public view of them changed? :? And you think I'm fooling myself?
People who are uneducated or unexperienced with such weapons are always going to have the opinion that they are bad and should be banned. And believing we can dramatically change them by joining with weapons that are already illegal (semi auto's, pistols and crossbows) is naive.

The day I have to pay registration fees, get a weapon safe bolted to my garage floor and obtain permits just to shoot some paper targets at my local club is the same day I go back to playing cricket and golf!

buford
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hubris
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#62 Post by hubris » Sat Nov 06, 2004 7:23 am

Buford, you're right.
When the new laws come in several years ago Pistol Australia said that we should distance our selves from the rifle and shotgun shooters , they aren't after us so we shouldn't get involved , [ little did they know ]
mate, 99% of people HATE guns. They don't care whether its a small gun, big gun, fat or skinny, loud, or quiet, they hate GUNS. Luckily, not everyone hates bows, but a lot of people are slowly being convinced by PETA, walt disney, and pamela anderson, that they shoud hate hunting.

As I said before they are two seperate debates, and they shouldn't be confused with one another. Traditional bowhunters should concentrate on winning the hunting debate, not trying to bring back guns from the grave or we'll end up lying there with them.
The day I have to pay registration fees, get a weapon safe bolted to my garage floor and obtain permits just to shoot some paper targets at my local club is the same day I go back to playing cricket and golf!
Some metrosexual pop-tart from canberra can do all they like. It won't stop me from carrying a few sticks and a gut string up into the mountains. :wink:
Saul 'Winks at Goats' & 'Paddles from Crocs'

dawallace45
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#63 Post by dawallace45 » Sat Nov 06, 2004 10:16 am

No , that is not what I'm saying , right , the firearms are already restricted , getting a law repealed stands about as much chance as a snowballs in hell , crossbows have now just in the last week had restrictions placed on them here in Queensland , so it's too late to keep them free , what I am saying is that we need to stop the Firearm v Bow stuff , and we need to stop the Compound v Trad bow stuff amongst our selves , the antis monitor places like this for ammunition to use against us , don't give it to them

The archery associations need to talk to groups like the SSAA , and find out where they think they went wrong and what that they did that worked , they need to get professional about the way they approach politicians , learn from them and work with them when necessary , I already have too many guns stuffed into a too small gun locker , I don't have room for my bows as well and really don't want to buy another cabinet

We have to stop being complacent , we need to be involved , even if that just means introducing a new member into the sport every chance we get , or just making sure that every time we mix with the general public as a archer we make sure that we come across as the sort of image that will make the sport look good , every time we speak to a non-archer we are a ambassador for our sport

I very much doubt that 99% of people hate guns , the government them selves reckon there are over 1.5 million shooters in this country , the shooting groups think the real number is more like 3 million when you factor in all the people who just refused to get a licence , realistically I get the impression from talking to a great many people that about 10% of people are extremely anti-gun , actually anti-weapon of any sort , the rest of the people aren't in either camp but tend to be swayed by what ever they read or saw last because they just don't think about it and it's not important to them

The firearms sports face a continual battle to keep the rights we still have , archery has to realise they have the same fight on their hands ,

We don't need to distance our selves from any group , that just gives ammo to the antis , what we need to do is be more active in promoting our sport

David W

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erron
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#64 Post by erron » Sun Nov 07, 2004 4:37 pm

Let me start by saying I post a number of the SSAA emails I receive on the site for reading and comment.

That said, I agree - being a city slicker who lives cheek by jowl with 99% of Australians - that the majority hate guns, full stop. I patiently explain where I can, but I was in total agreement with the banning of auto and semi-auto weapons, still am, always will be. To me, they are un-necessary for hunting, were made to kill other humans, there are sickos who will always use them for such, and we simply don't need them to pursue our hunting.

However, I agree that we need to stand with all legal hunters, if we ourselves are to stand. But I also feel we can have differences of opinion on what constitutes a hunting piece, and don't need to blindly accept every weapon the SSAA tries to foist on us as a valid hunting tool.

Erron

pete w

#65 Post by pete w » Sun Nov 07, 2004 6:03 pm

I have been following this thread since starting it and the responses have been great.It's intent seems to be hapening.
Thanks for the thoughts.

Erron:
After reading your last post about auto/semiauto rifles I wonder if you have ever shot a hunting semi Auto rifle?These are not the assult type weapon.My 30-06 Remington model#4 is a far cry from what the gangs like to have.It is also a far cry from an auto, or machine gun.It is a fast pointing hunting rifle that is idealy suited for shooting in the bush.It should not be cunfused with a machine gun.!It requires a pulling of the trigger for each shot, just like a double rifle would.Would you propose double rifles and shotguns be banned also?
The autoloader[semi automatic] and Pump guns are legitimate and realistic hunting weapons.
Even if all the guns were removed the murders will still happen.Killers Kill not guns.If they want to mass kill they will use bombs or poison.
Banning guns is a reactive response that does nothing, try a proactive aproach and stop the killers from killing.

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#66 Post by tracker » Sun Nov 07, 2004 6:33 pm

Pete.. most of the types of guns you are talking about are banned here in Australia. They got a bee in their bonnets a few years back and don't like you being able to shoot too many rounds without having to reload. A real loonie shot a whole pile of people in a tourist cafe with a semi-auto and a large magazine. :cry:

I personally enjoy a nice gun. Always have, always will.

I don't own any though. Too much hassle these days.

I read a book once where ALL adult males were legally OBLIGED to either carry a handgun or wear a large brassard indicating they were unarmed. The penalty for killing someone carrying a handgun was zero. The penalty for killing someone wearing a brassard, or a woman or a child was death. Cops were armed AND had a brassard.

Everyone was VERY polite to one another. :wink:

Mick.
"One has been a bad spectator of life if one has not also seen the hand that in a considerate fashion - kills." Nietzsche.

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#67 Post by yeoman » Sun Nov 07, 2004 6:46 pm

Is it Switzerland where every man over 18 has an automatic rifle in their cupboard at home by law? Isn't it also the country with the lowest firearm incident rate in the world?

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Buford
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#68 Post by Buford » Mon Nov 08, 2004 9:40 am

erron wrote:However, I agree that we need to stand with all legal hunters, if we ourselves are to stand. But I also feel we can have differences of opinion on what constitutes a hunting piece,
Thats the point I have been trying to make. :)
I know we need to stand together to have the numbers to make a difference, but no so close that archers get branded with the same "deadly weapon" label as crossbows. (for all out there from out of Australia, crossbows are banned in almost every state in our country). If this sort of crazyness happens, pretty soon you won't be able to hold up a pointy stick without having the cuffs slapped on ya. :P

buford
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jindydiver
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#69 Post by jindydiver » Mon Nov 08, 2004 1:27 pm

Tracker
As some US friends of mine like to say
"An armed society is a polite society"
Mick


Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.

Abraham Lincoln

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erron
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#70 Post by erron » Mon Nov 08, 2004 1:57 pm

Pete,

It doesn’t have to be a machine gun. If I have the intent I can enter a building with a semi-auto and kill people as fast as I can pull the trigger.

The Australia I grew up in had no such guns. Hunters learned to make their first shot count, and in the event of a miss they had a bolt-fed magazine as backup. Then the autos and semis started arriving and the massacres started. One of them involved people I worked with. I lost several work colleagues to a madman, who entered the building with a semi-auto, intending to kill as many people as he could. The rifle malfunctioned however, and he had to ‘breech-load’ each shot into the chamber. Even with THIS gun he managed to kill 11 people before he was stopped by two men who had the time to jump him when he was reloading.

After 3 of these incidents, our govt. - with the overwhelming support of the population (70% according to the polls at the time) - decided to act.

I’m happy for hunters to be limited to one shot kills, if it saves lives, and since we haven’t had a massacre since they were banned, I think we have to say the legislation is working, to some degree at least.

And lastly, sorry but I laugh every time I hear that ‘armed society is a polite society’ line. Are folks who quote it really saying America is the most polite (since it’s the most armed) western country on earth? Give me a break. Have a look at the most armed societies in the world and you’ll likely be including a fair number of places a sane man wouldn’t set foot. Real polite, oh yeah, lol!

Erron

dawallace45
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#71 Post by dawallace45 » Mon Nov 08, 2004 3:24 pm

Erron

Full auto firearms have been banned for over 80 years or so , but semi-auto centre firearms have been reasonably popular since the mid 50's but they were always reasonably expensive except maybe for the M1 Carbine until the import of the cheap SKS's and you can blame the Australian government for that , they bought the first ones in as part payment for a wheat deal with china , a lot of us weren't too happy about that , but mainly because many people were using them to hunt with and using the hard nose military ammo

Personally I'm into bolt action sporting rifles , and old Mausers and Lee Enfield's , old single shot rifles , lever guns and muzzleloaders and of course side by side shotguns

David W

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yeoman
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#72 Post by yeoman » Mon Nov 08, 2004 3:28 pm

ahhhhhhhhh...........lever actions........
https://www.instagram.com/armworks_australia/

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jindydiver
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#73 Post by jindydiver » Mon Nov 08, 2004 6:17 pm

Erron
Before I even begin I would like it to be understood that I am not looking to change anybodies opinions as no amount of discussion on the internet is going to make one bit of difference. What I would hope is that people will become interested in the issues and do some research themselves.

When my friends talk of society they are obviously talking of their own society or a reasonable facsimile of it. They are not talking about somewhere like Liberia for instance as these sorts of places have suffered a general breakdown in the fabric of their society and lawlessness is the norm rather than the exception. Rather what they are talking about is the difference between downtown L.A. and Washington D.C. (where private ownership of firearms is severely limited) compared to Kennesaw, Georgia (where the compulsory ownership of firearms is mandated by law).

I feel sorry for the families and friends of people who were gunned down by some ******** but no more sorry than I feel for the family and friends of people who are killed by the negligent and stupid actions of some of our countries road users. I would also think that there would be close to the same number of people who have been killed as a result of accidents during high speed police chases and accidental police shootings than in the 3 “massacres” you mention (I am assuming you mean Hoddle street, Strathfield mall and Port Arthur. There have been others).
New Zealand allows the private ownership of rifles of the same type that were used in all three incidences and have only ever had three “massacres”, the last being in 1997. They have also had no mass shootings since then and have not further restricted the ownership of firearms so the leap of logic that the restrictive gun laws introduced here must be working is clearly flawed. Governments refuse to acknowledge that it is the increasingly urban nature of our population that leads to incidence like these, not the ownership of firearms. Instead of finding ways to combat the criminal elements in our society with targeted strategies governments just legislate to ban objects that the public perceives as the tools of these criminals, regardless of how these bans will affect the law abiding members of that society.
I’m happy for hunters to be limited to one shot kills, if it saves lives,
This is the sort of logic that will see you lose your right to own a firearm removed altogether, and this includes bows. Do you honestly believe that when they have taken everything but single shot firearms they will stop? A line in the sand must be drawn and all efforts to cross this line fought, and the drawing of this line just in front of your own interests is the selfish attitude that has allowed the anti’s to fracture and divide the hunters (and other firearm owners) of Australia and to make the gains they have. For example, during the lead up to the bans in 1996 no mention was made of any bans on shotguns until just before the legislation was introduced and the shotgun users of Australia saw no problem with the new restrictive gun laws and were actually supportive of the banning hoping that throwing their rifle shooting brothers to the wolves would save them. How wrong were they?

And Erron, your memory may be failing you because try as I might I can find no incident where a gunman killed 11 people excluding Port Arthur. The next highest toll was Frank Vitkovic Who killed 8 and wounded 5 inside an office building in Little Bourke st Melbourne before jumping out a window to his death.
Mick


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tracker
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#74 Post by tracker » Mon Nov 08, 2004 7:14 pm

All this talk of guns has got me thinking about old times. 8)

I dug out an old photo of me with my favourite gun. :D

An FN!

1982. About 40k's on the wrong side of the Angolan border. I was a lot thinner and I still had HAIR!! :wink:

There are PLENTY of okes that never made into the Namibian parliament because of these blokes. :D :D :D

Like I said.. I love a nice gun.. always will.

Image
"One has been a bad spectator of life if one has not also seen the hand that in a considerate fashion - kills." Nietzsche.

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hubris
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#75 Post by hubris » Mon Nov 08, 2004 10:27 pm

hahah... hold on I've got a cool pic of me in space fighting aliens LOCK and LOAD!... let me just find it! :wink:

Alpha, Beta, Chicken, Delta hehehe...

I like guns, but I don't trust the rest of society with them.
Saul 'Winks at Goats' & 'Paddles from Crocs'

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yeoman
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#76 Post by yeoman » Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:40 pm

An FN? Looks kinda similar to the ole MAG-58 or M-60. Man, those weapons are a DOG to carry around! The F-89 Minimi is bad enough. Give me an aus-steyr any day. Odd looking, but very functional and reliable.

http://www.militarytrophies.com.au/gall ... ense-z.jpg

I'd pull out photos of me with this mighty rifle, but they're interstate.

Tracker, with a weapon like the one you're holding in that photo, you'd be garunteed at least one rooster with one burst :!: :lol: :wink:

But seriously, regular infantry or something more special?(not that there's anything wrong with regular infantry :!: )

Dave
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erron
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#77 Post by erron » Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:02 pm

And Erron, your memory may be failing you because try as I might I can find no incident where a gunman killed 11 people excluding Port Arthur. The next highest toll was Frank Vitkovic Who killed 8 and wounded 5 inside an office building in Little Bourke st Melbourne before jumping out a window to his death.
Mick, you’re right, memory is getting hazy, it was 8, not 11 as stated. I just remember the people I worked with who got shot, and I’ve managed to forget a lot of that, too. :? This was, however, the incident I referred to. And it took place at 191 Queen street.

Couple of points: You compare the guns issue to car ownership? I can only make the point that we need cars far more than automatics, and this is the kind of analogy that just doesn’t wash with the non-hunting public.

I was interested to hear about NZ’s laws and experience, though. I’m not averse to admitting when I’m wrong, and I acknowledge all the dangers associated with this issue. Still, this is my view of things today, and I’ve been debating this with folks for many years, so I’m not really likely to change either.

Cheers,

Erron

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#78 Post by jindydiver » Tue Nov 09, 2004 8:04 pm

At the risk of labouring a point I didn’t post with the intent of changing anybody’s mind on the issue. People’s opinions are formed over many years and are a result of their experiences, and to think that I could change anybodies opinion just by posting on a bulletin board would be ridiculous.

The point of my post was to show that the only way to slow the government in its headlong rush to remove our freedoms is to present them with a united front on these things.
Just have a look at the pistol shooters who were dead silent on the whole buyback think in ’96 because they didn’t see it as affecting them and liked to think they were slipping under the governments radar. But once the precedent was set (medicare levies to pay for the confiscation of previously legal firearms) there was no going back and all it took was one incident blown out of all proportion in the media and they were the next target.
How long before some idiot misuses his bow and the government introduces restrictions on their use?
Archers are already headed down the same track with the recent reviews on crossbow ownership. Those archers that had nothing to do with crossbows ignored the whole thing until there was mention of “compound hunting bows” and then there was panic all around.
When the news came through that the compounds were off the table how many of you were just happy to go back to ignoring the crossbow shooters again?

People like Gun Control Australia have said in the past that their best chance of success is to slowly remove our freedom to own firearms piece by piece. It is too late to get active when the next freedom they are trying remove is your right to shoot a bow.
I can only make the point that we need cars far more than automatics, and this is the kind of analogy that just doesn’t wash with the non-hunting public.
Agreed, but in making this point you have fallen into using the argument that is most likely to see you lose your right to shoot a bow, the argument of “need”.

Someone’s “need” is a personal thing. Making laws based on the publics’ perceptions of a segment of the communities “need” to own a particular item is just a form of bigotry, and to sit quietly and allow the government to legislate away your rights to do certain things because others don’t see why you “need” to do these things is wrong. Unless what you personally are doing has a detrimental effect on others what business is it of anybody else’s?

The issue of comparative need is just the sort of thing people exploit when trying to force their views upon the public. An example is the issue of bull bars on cars. People who would want to rob you of your freedom of choice are crying out that no one needs a bulbar in the city and councils and state governments are listening. These people roll out statistics supporting their claims that they are a danger and have no quantifiable benefits for city dwellers and in the future you may find you are no longer allowed to drive your 4WD into the city for fear of paying a big fine.

We are becoming a society where the laws only specify the things you can do rather than a society where the laws only specify the things you cant do.

Sorry to go on so, and none of this is intended to poke **** at you Erron, they are just observations.
Mick


Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.

Abraham Lincoln

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erron
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#79 Post by erron » Wed Nov 10, 2004 7:38 am

Mate, you make excellent points, and no, I’m not taking it personally. I too, would like to be part of the united front, I’m just not sure that front should contain auto weapons, is all. I take your points on board, however.

Cheers,

Erron

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#80 Post by jindydiver » Wed Nov 10, 2004 8:21 am

I’m just not sure that front should contain auto weapons, is all.
You may mean semi's, but either way that time is long past and no amount of disscussion could bring them back. :cry:
Mick


Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.

Abraham Lincoln

Tom Perkins Jnr
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Why the bitterness ?

#81 Post by Tom Perkins Jnr » Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:12 pm

having just rejoined the archery ranks after a 26yr absence (I shot competive field archery bare bow up to the age of 16yrs previously) I have introduced my 8 yr/old son to the joys of the bow. I think that I had only seen 1 single example of a compound at that time. But I do recall that there was not a very high level of retention of newcomers as mastery of the bow required much more commitment to correct form and tecnique to become proficient back then.
I now have a lovely new Hoyt Magnatec compound , my son has a Browning Micromidas which we shoot bare and we are enjoying our sport greatly. I also noticed that new comers to the sport who attend the fourtnightly club indoor shoot are becoming proficient much more quickly with a sighted compound than they would with a bare recurve or long bow. this equates to less frustration and greater likelyhood of them sticking with our sport long term.
I am interested in the Longbow as a new challenge within the same sport and I can see that many of the other new recruits that start out with a compound could also at a later stage look for the same challenge.
Here's a new twist to the subject, just look at the current compound owners as potential Long bow shooters or vise-versa.

pete w

#82 Post by pete w » Fri Dec 03, 2004 12:14 am

Good point Tom.

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#83 Post by Tom Perkins Jnr » Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:47 am

Sorry to mention this guys but the reason that I had so many years away from this sport was that I received a rifle for the Xmas that year. I still have it and a few others that get a bit of regular use, my son can also shoot quite well with a rimfire or .222 and has a good safe attitude. Even at his tender age he has witnessed (at his own request & with a little concern from his parents) the home slaughter of cattle where it was explained that this wasn't done to be cruel to the animal but is the humane way we get our family beef supply. We live in a rural area and the kids around here accept this as a normal part of life.
Noticing that this thread has included comment on Firearms and there missuse I always wondered what would have happened if a few respectible law abiding citisens were armed that day Bryant entered that Caffe' in Tassy.
Or is it now universaly accepted throughout the community that people that own and use firearms (or hunting bows) couldn't possibly be respectible or law abiding ?
I think the message that we are respectible and law abiding is as important as any to help secure our rights into the future.

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erron
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#84 Post by erron » Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:14 pm

Tom,

I have many fond memories of the .22's I shot as a kid :)

As to the gun question, it has been shown many, many times that America has a far greater rate of death by firearm than Australia (or just about any other Western country, for that matter). A friend of mine in Maryland, who is a staunch supporter of gun ownership, himself admitted that the nearest big city to him had about 3 gun murders a month.

No, defend the right to have guns by all means, but do it on its own merits. The old saying about an armed society being safer is patently ridiculous. I can think of many countries with high ownership, that I wouldn't set foot in.

cheers,

Erron

Al Kidner

#85 Post by Al Kidner » Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:16 am

Top Photo Mick,
I'm a fan of the MAG 58 "Pray and Spray" method as well ......LOL how in hell did you fellas shoot the 58 on one knee..? as for the F89 after heavy firing ( about 600-800 rds) the bloody thing jams up! Just junk if you ask me, and the Ausstyer will "cook off" after heavy firing as well.... more junk...lol

I've been reading this thread and only now have made the point to pipe up.

After having weapons by my side, sleeping with them, never going anywhere with out one in my hands or straped to me, and the constant worrie of making sure it's at arms reach or closer at all times(thanks to 8 years in the Infantry/ reconnaissance area) I'm glad I've given mine up to the police and let my licance expire.

I don't hate weapons..... just had enough and want a full night's sleep one day.


and YES I do feel naked with out one, like leaving your watch at home..............


Regards Alan.

When you gonna ring for a chat there tracker..?

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