Who bare shaft tunes their arrows?

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Bare shaft tuning, yes or no???

I always bare tune my shafts. It crucial to good performance.
9
31%
I've dabbled a bit with it, but generally I don't bother.
8
28%
I don't know enough about it to even try doing it.
2
7%
If my arrows fly well enough, why bother with bare shaft turning?
10
34%
 
Total votes: 29

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Mick Smith
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Who bare shaft tunes their arrows?

#1 Post by Mick Smith » Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:14 pm

I've got to admit, I rarely attempt to bare tune my shafts. In fact the first couple of times that I tried, I ended up breaking several shafts after they hit the target at an angle. I think you've got to be a reasonably good shot to be able to bare tune shafts, otherwise the results can't be obtained. It's also one of those mystical processes to many of us, who have heard about it, but who don't really understand it, or how to go about it. It's one of those subjects where you will hear differing advice too, with some people doing it one way and others will do it some other way. Generally, I'm happy enough if my arrows fly well, without porpoising or fishtailing and hit where I want them to.

I've heard some people say that its all about how the bare shafts land when they hit the target, ie, whether or not the nocks are pointed one way or the other. I've heard others say its all about shooting the bare shafts through paper and taking note of how the tear marks look.

I believe the proper method is to shoot both fletched and unfletched arrows/shafts together with a view of tuning them to both hit at exactly the same point by adjusting your nocking point and your point weight and perhaps the spine of your shafts.

So, the question is, do you bare shaft test your arrows or not? If so, how do you do it? Do you think the results are worth it?
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Re: Who bare shaft tunes their arrows?

#2 Post by ron300wm » Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:21 pm

If not broken why bother
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Re: Who bare shaft tunes their arrows?

#3 Post by AndyD » Sat Feb 21, 2015 5:33 pm

I do.
It only take a morning to do at the club (The easton arrow cutter helps)

It really will tighten your groups. Give it a whirl
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Re: Who bare shaft tunes their arrows?

#4 Post by bigbob » Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:22 pm

It is handy to use and be satisfied that at least the arrows are tuned even if the archer is anything but!
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Re: Who bare shaft tunes their arrows?

#5 Post by little arrows » Sat Feb 21, 2015 8:52 pm

it is my opinion, there is too much human interference. I have seen many trying so so hard to get it all correct. The fletches are on the shaft for a reason - paper testing with quills on the shaft is the perfered method of this household (if he can actually get me to shoot) - gives a more "realistic response" for want of a better description. Doesn't help me shoot any better though :lol:

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Re: Who bare shaft tunes their arrows?

#6 Post by Ronster » Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:35 pm

I bare shaft religiously, I start at around 5M and move out to 10M after any adjustment. I believe that if your arrows are tuned to your bow any bad shots are due to poor form.
However they are tuned to that bow and may not shoot so well from another. IMO,

There are a lot of vids on Utube and I believe the science behind bare shaft tuning is proven.

Ronster
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Re: Who bare shaft tunes their arrows?

#7 Post by Mick Smith » Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:18 am

Ronster wrote:I bare shaft religiously, I start at around 5M and move out to 10M after any adjustment. I believe that if your arrows are tuned to your bow any bad shots are due to poor form.
However they are tuned to that bow and may not shoot so well from another. IMO,

There are a lot of vids on Utube and I believe the science behind bare shaft tuning is proven.

Ronster
AndyD wrote:I do.
It only take a morning to do at the club (The easton arrow cutter helps)

It really will tighten your groups. Give it a whirl

Andy and Ronster, could you please give us a quick run down on how you go about your bare shaft tuning?

I assume you start off by using a full length shaft with the nock and point fitted and then shooting it at around 5 metres or so. You then proceed to cut small sections off the shaft until you receive the results you're looking for. Is your object to try to get the shaft hitting the bale at right angles and then moving back, up to around 20 metres and still achieving the same result? Do you then fletch some of the shafts and then compare their flight and impact characteristics with the unfletched shafts to ensure they're almost identical to each other?

Because you're constantly cutting sections off the shaft you would probably have to use some type of glue that's strong enough to withstand impacts into and withdrawals from the bale, yet one that is quick and easy to remove from the shaft and for reapplication after recutting. Do you use one of the melt glues?

Obviously, it would be a lot easier to bare shaft tune aluminium shafts, followed by carbon shafts. Wood shafts would require retapering the point end after each cut, which is still doable, but very time consuming.
Last edited by Mick Smith on Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who bare shaft tunes their arrows?

#8 Post by perry » Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:23 am

hopefully edited for clarity

Rule of thumb for a Right Hander - A Stiff Bareshaft will impact Right and Tail Left of a Fletched Arrow. Too weak and it will impact Left and Tail Right of a Fletched Arrow. I shoot the Arrow at 15 - 20 Yards to give me a chance to see what it's doing in the Air also. I have the advantage of Decades of experience and can guess close to Correct Brace, Nock, Spine from the outset so really am fine Tuning.

No need to do it for every batch of Arrows, just the once for a new Bow / Arrow combination and put aside a control Shaft and replicate, remember or write down the Bow Arrow combination Brace Height, Nock Arrow Spine etc. If you swap and change combinations then its a royal pain in the Backside. Folks like Wallace Woods have vast experience to draw on, Steve and Sue won't get things wrong if they are given the correct information.

Like Sue says the Fletching will mask slight Spine issues. A Properly Spined Arrow will perform in adverse conditions like when the Feathers are Wet and have layed down on the Shaft and not able to mask the minor Spine issue as well as they did. Having full knowledge your Equipment is set up properly gives one an Edge in Competitions just like long hours working towards perfecting Form does. Same applies to Bowhunting situations

I start with a Stiff Arrow Shaft that is the length I require it. I already have a rough FOC in mind so have the weight Head glued on. Assuming I have shot it and it indicated too Stiff I then Taper the rear 1/3 - 1/2 of the Shaft using 000 Steel Wool a tiny bit at a time until it is impacting slightly Left of the Target. Now I Fletch that Arrow, Fletched it will then impact Centre. Make up another Shaft that Matches that Arrow, you need a Spine Jig. Bareshaft it, if it Impacts Right, its too Stiff, if it impacts left Fletch it and it should group with the other. You have now Double checked your work, go on and finish the Batch but keep that first Arrow aside as a Control Arrow, at the very least record it's Spine. Length, Point Weight, Taper or lack there of and type of Fletching.

Once you have the correct Spine and have established Brace Height you can take that control Arrow and use it to set the correct Nocking Point. A too low Nocking Point the Bare Shaft will group under your Fletched Arrows, too high and it will group above

A quick Paper Tuning Story - A well known Compounder was Shooting Shafts that where indicating underspined and he kept cranking the Draw Weight up and the Paper kept Tearing longer and longer. I suggested he should be reducing Draw Weight, He told me to Fu#k Off, what would you know you Shoot a Stick ? I gritted my teeth because I had seen Red and wanted to Thump him, instead I grabbed my Bow and Shoot an Arrow through the Paper, left a neat Hole, about a 1/2" Tear from the Fletching, retrieved my Arrow and walked away.

regards Perry
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Re: Who bare shaft tunes their arrows?

#9 Post by Mick Smith » Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:01 pm

Since you've edited your post, I can more clearly understand what you're saying now Perry. I do things a little differently to you. I start off with a set of shafts that will almost certainly be under spined when they're shot at full length. I then shoot a few at around 5 metres expecting to see the nock sticking out well to the right. I shoot up close because I don't want to break any shafts.Where it impacts the bale doesn't worry me at this stage. This confirms that the shafts are underspined.

Being a lazy person, I prefer to cut a little off the length of my shafts, to increase the static spine, rather than doing what Perry does, which is taking away wood from the shaft to weaken the spine. I figure I paid good money for a set of matched shafts and I want to keep them as closely matched as possible. I cut the shaft from the nock end, making it about 1/2 inch shorter overall, before fitting a new nock, or refitting the old one. I then go through the process again at 5 metres with the shorter shafts. Hopefully, the shaft will hit the bale a little straighter. I just keep on doing this until the shaft hits the bale and sticks out perpendicularly. It might take 2 or 3 cuts, or it might take a lot more. I now have the perfect length for this particular shaft for my bow. I will then move back to as far as 20 metres to ensure they still impact the bale at right angles. It's then just a matter of making the whole set the same length.

As Perry said, only go through this process when doing something different, ie, using different shafts, or a different bow, or perhaps different weight points. Once I have settled on a good combo, I will stick with it and make future batches of arrows using the exact same formulae.

I know that many people go on to shoot both some of their fletched arrows to compare where they impact on the bale, as opposed to their cut to length, but as yet unfletched shafts. I haven't bothered trying to do this, but I think I will the next time, just to see what happens.
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Re: Who bare shaft tunes their arrows?

#10 Post by greybeard » Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:05 pm

When I get near perfect form I might give it a try. :twocents-mytwocents:

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Re: Who bare shaft tunes their arrows?

#11 Post by Mick Smith » Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:03 pm

greybeard wrote:When I get near perfect form I might give it a try. :twocents-mytwocents:

Daryl.

Good point Daryl. :lol: My shooting is far from being perfect too, really far in fact. :doh: I tend to view bare shaft tuning more as a handy tool to determine the ideal spine for any new set of arrows I might intend to make up for my bow. It takes a lot of the guesswork out of making a set of arrows and it stops me from ending up with a set of arrows that shoot reasonably well, but they might land a foot away from where I'm looking, which has happened in the past when I've simply assumed that they would be okay.
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Re: Who bare shaft tunes their arrows?

#12 Post by Ronster » Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:29 pm

Hi Mick, I use Top Hat screw on points that make the job simple. I have a 27" draw length shooting mostly a 44# @ 28" bow, so I am actually pulling at around 41#.
I buy mostly 50-55# and sometimes 45-50# spine arrows and start at 29" arrow length. This is from experience of previous tunings. I use either 100 or 125 grain points depending on the type of shooting I am doing. and as stated start at 5m which usually give me a weak arrow that shoots to the right of point of aim with nock facing to the left. I then shorten by 1/4" until the arrow flies pretty close to straight, then reduce the amount I take off until straight. I then go to 10M to refine and when satisfied I will then adjust for nock point position on the string by raising or lowering the nock point to ensure that the arrow also flies so that the arrow is not nock high or low, if that makes sense! The proof is now in the pudding and I shoot several bare shafted arrows with previously tuned fletched arrows and they should shoot in the same group. "Wow what a mouth full"
Anyway that is what I do and it works for me. You can take this further, but your form will need to be pretty good. Paper tuning would be the next step for ultimate tuning of your arrows, and would probably be done by the elite archer.

For Brace height I set the brace height high and shoot and listen to feel the bow for vibration and noise. I then lower the brace height and repeat until the string hits what I would call the harmonic of the bow, where it is at its sweetest, quieter and least vibration. It was once expalined to me as listening to the bow talking to you. Might sound crazy but try it!
So to cap it off the brace height is what the bow tells you it is.

Hope this helps!

Ronster :surprised:
Last edited by Ronster on Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I would love to be an expert, but experience and lack of knowledge holds me back!

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Raven Vanquish 62" TD Recurve 44# @ 28"
Beaver 64" Longbow 41# @ 27"
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Re: Who bare shaft tunes their arrows?

#13 Post by Mick Smith » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:30 pm

Thanks Ronster. Yes, the use of screw-on brass points would make bare shafting much easier. I hadn't thought of that little trick.
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Re: Who bare shaft tunes their arrows?

#14 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:02 pm

My answer to the quiz above is that I NEVER bare tune my shafts - never have and have never had any kind of problem. Selecting my arrow shafts base purely on having a fairly reasonable amount of stiffness and matching them to each other, has always resulted in accuracy more than sufficient for anything I have ever shot.

So, I have always been bemused by this process. I have never understood the necessity for it or the underlying reasons justifying it.

The process seems to arise from an underlying idea that there is something basically wrong with arrows which needs to be removed from them before they can be put into use - sort of like removing an archery equivalent of 'original sin'.

I would have thought that modern syntharrows were far less likely to have flight problems than the woods I always prefer, but I don't notice on Ozbow of wood arrow shooters having the dreadful flight problems that syntharrow users seem to have.

I have always worked on the principle that you fix a problem when you find one rather than presume you have a problem and try to prevent it occurring when you don't really know for sure that you actually have one.

Please explain?????? I am not having a shot at anyone. I am simply mystified by the, to me, non-apparent need for it.
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Re: Who bare shaft tunes their arrows?

#15 Post by perry » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:46 pm

Dennis have you ever done something just because you can or pulled something apart to see how it worked and had a bloody good time doing it ?

I started my Archery at a FITA Club, from the get go was taught to strive for perfect Form [ never acheived it ] how to tune a Bow and select the right Arrow, I am also a Tinkerer by Nature. I enjoy the Technical and not so Technical aspects of my Archery I want to know all there is to know about it. This is one of the ways I go about things. I am not content to leave things at good enough, I always strive too do or make something better than the last time - besides that I'm Anal :biggrin:

regards Jacko
Last edited by perry on Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Who bare shaft tunes their arrows?

#16 Post by Mick Smith » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:52 pm

Dennis, bare shaft tuning is a bit like tracing circles over the photos of fully draw selfbows. It's not totally necessary, but if you're looking to get the most out of your arrows (or bows), then it's all a part of the fun. I'm not poking rubbish at you here Dennis. I'm just pointing out that we archers are a strange lot and we all get our kicks from different aspects of archery.

I would have thought anyone who was totally absorbed with their archery would want to shoot the very best equipment they could possibly lay their hands on. I'm not talking about the most expensive equipment, but tested and tuned equipment that's the very best that it can be. Bare shaft tuning is just this, no more and no less than making the very best bow you possibly can.

Poorly spined arrows can usually be controlled effectively enough by using big 5 inch fletches and these same arrows will probably shoot better than most archers can. They will not be the most efficient arrows though. They will use up precious energy as the arrow is forced to come out of paradox at the incorrect angle, the fletches creating added friction before settling the arrows flight. If you've ever done much shooting in particularly wet conditions, with wet flattened fletches together with poorly spined arrows, you will realise the importance of having correctly spined arrows.

It's not just the users of synthetic arrows who commonly bare shaft tune their arrows. Many wood arrow uses also do it. It's a very pleasing experience to see your arrows flying like darts, with no fishtailing or porpoising problems and to know that they will continue to shoot that way no matter what the weather does.

Why would you want to shoot imperfect arrows from a perfect bow?
There is no use focusing on aiming if you don't execute the shot well enough to hit what your are aiming at.

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Re: Who bare shaft tunes their arrows?

#17 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:08 pm

Perry and Mick,

I too do a lot of experimenting with my equipment as you all well know by now, but I have never seen the need to bare tune my shafts BEFORE I have established that I actually had a problem with arrow flight. The way in which proponents advocate using the practice appears to me as though there is the presumption of poor performance BEFORE the fact.

I can understand that if one has poor arrow flight in a set of arrows made or purchased for a bow, then one may wish to investigate why and try to establish a remedy, but all explanations so far seem to rely on supposing a remedy to something which is no more established than a possible hypothesis, and then going about implementing a presumed remedy which will hypothetically obviate an unproven problem.

It all reads to me like trying different wheels on the cart rather than just checking whether or not the horse can pull it. It seems to rely on the belief that there is always a problem with the cart which needs to be found and fixed before establishing whether there is a problem with just harnessing them together and seeing if the cart can be drawn.

To date, after about 30+ years, I have never once had an occasion where my arrows fishtailed or porpoised or where my arrows performed poorly or even less then optimally which I could ascribed to spine problems.

On shelfed modern flat longbows, I allow one grade underspine for each 1/8" out from centreshot. Because I have a moderate natural cant, I am able to shoot a large range of spines up to around 15lbs overspine without problems. I have never had an arrow which did not fly like a dart from any bow I had.

Well before I ever knew about this business of bareshafting over the past 10 years or so, I never saw anyone practising anything similar and of all the many hundreds of people with whom I shot over many years, nobody had ever broached the subject and nobody ever had issues with their arrows that I observed. I just did not see anybody who had badly flying arrows so long as the spine was a reasonable (not even exact) match to their bow and their nock point was not too low to bounce the arrow off the shelf.

I am not trying to asperse people having fun doing it if that is their thing, but as Ronster states above -
There are a lot of vids on Utube and I believe the science behind bare shaft tuning is proven.
I would be grateful for a direction to the science behind the practice.
Dennis, bare shaft tuning is a bit like tracing circles over the photos of fully draw selfbows. It's not totally necessary, but if you're looking to get the most out of your arrows (or bows), then it's all a part of the fun.
My drawing of diagrams to do with tillering and most recently about finding the neutral axis in bows has nothing to do with fun. I don't do it for fun. I do it purely for instruction to help others to analyse their tillering technique. Those drawings follow from years of study among all the best published material in the field that I can find which I can pass on to others to whom access to that material is not readily available. A partial list of those publications is appended to the most recent update of the Ozbow Glossary.

It also begs the question that if it is not necessary as Mick contends but Ronster avers that the science is proven, what is the purpose? Is the process actually functional with measureable results or is it merely fun to fiddle? How is it a superior technique to relying on reasonable spine and application of some basic rules to match arrows to a given bow as I have always found to produce dart-like arrow flight, or is there a provable benefit which can give me even better arrow flight than I get already.

I am taking this quite seriously, so over to you, gentlemen.
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

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Re: Who bare shaft tunes their arrows?

#19 Post by scuzz » Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:45 am

I shot a great deal in my teenage years and was constantly having troubles with arrow flight. I did try bare shaft tuning but didn't know enough to get any benefit out of it.

Now that I shoot far less, I seem to do more arrow and bow making and ironically I have the best flying arrows that I have ever had. My problem ended up being FOC. It turns out my original arrows were 700+ grains with a 125grain tip. Since adding more tip weight I am able to shoot with 3x4inch flights instead of the 4x5inch that I used as a teenager. And even with so much flight area, I couldn't shoot in the rain due to poor arrow flight (as Mick mentioned). And now I have as little problems as Dennis suggests with almost non-existant problems with higher spined arrows. In fact I seem to find more problems with a closer to centre-shot longbow, and so now I make all my bows to 3/8 from centre.

I think shooting at traditional shoots and hunting distances it would be hard to see much difference between the archers that bare-shaft tune and those that do not. I could imagine a potential difference at longer distances though and it would be interesting to hear from such shooters.

Cheers,
Scuzz

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Re: Who bare shaft tunes their arrows?

#20 Post by Kendaric » Tue Feb 24, 2015 12:00 pm

I tend to agree with Dennis in many respects - so much tuning is done on the assumption that there is something wrong to begin with. Compound shooters, in particular, are bad for this. As to using carbons, most problems start in so much that the spine grading is done based on a compound shooting a release aid - where more leeway is available as archers paradox is less and vertical, not horizontal, and tillering can be played with. No 35-50# spined carbon is going to shoot well out of a 35# longbow.

Most people do not shoot consistantly enough to get any advantage out of advanced tuning techniques. There is still controversy over the node point theory. Some swear by it and other swear at it. Most barebow shooters need not concern themselves with it, as most arrows are made 1-2" longer that the back of the bow to accommodate broadheads.

What most people fail to grasp is: THAT A TUNED BOW IS JUST AS INTRINSICALLY ACCURATE AS AN UNTUNED BOW. Mechanical shooting (shot with a machine), has shown that. However - tuning does help reduce human error and improve forgiveness.

Also, for many shooters, saying that their bow/arrow combination is not in tune is the best excuse for failing to shoot well, when the fault actually lies with their form.

Generally I have found that when shooting with fingers, that arrows spined correctly or slightly underspined seem to shoot with better clearance, but we do have some leeway. When shooting fingers, it is better to have the arrow sitting outside centreshot. Even Olympic Archers set their arrows outside centreshot. Centreshot is for release aids, and even some good shooters will tell you that even this should still be a fraction outside centreshot to give predictability. Think of it like a person sitting on a fence - if they sit directly in the middle, they have a 50/50 chance of falling either side. Sit more on one side that the other and you have 100% falling on one side only.

A lot of bare shaft tuning is done too far away from the butt. The butt also needs to be of a nature that will not guide arrows into it (as mentioned before). Bareshaft tuning needs to be done just outside arrow length of the butt. Canting the bow will influence the shot - but if you normal cant, but bareshaft vertical, you have already included a variable that is not your normal shooting. As you move back from the butt, your bareshaft is going to behave differently, as it is no longer under the first reaction from leaving the bow. You can still bareshaft test with a fletched arrow, at this close distance.

Shooting off a shelf is not exactly the same as shooting off a raised arrow rest with pressure button - the arrow will tend to still glide off the outer shelf near the rear of the arrow. One only has to look at the wear marks on most peoples shelf padding.

Using you spine charts and the Stu Miller Spine Calculator will give you what you need to know. You will still have leeway either side, enough so not to worry about it. Often poor arrow flight can be put down to poor shooting technique - ie torquing the bow hand or draw hand, plucking the string and all manner of poor follow-through.

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Re: Who bare shaft tunes their arrows?

#21 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Tue Feb 24, 2015 2:49 pm

Mick,

Many thanks for all the references and the trouble you have gone to. I appreciate that and I will go through them all as diligently as possible and let all of you know my views afterward.

Please do not misunderstand my intentions with my posts above. If I thought for one second that there was genuine worth in the technique and you blokes were able to demonstrate that to me, I would be with you entirely.

It is just that thus far, nobody has provided a reasonable counter argument to those I have put above. That is why I try to force a considered opinion through vigorous debate - to try to get you to go over your understanding of what the system is all about and why it works.

Many people hold opinions on a subject which may well be true, but don't seem to have thought through their belief or understanding very well if at all, and when confronted with the question of why, they are not able to justify that belief or understanding which is what I find difficult to accept. That is why in debate, I often push so hard and a lot of people become very angry about that thinking I am attacking their integrity.

It has nothing to do with the integrity of the proponent or their intelligence. Prima facie, I take people's views seriously for the most part. It is just that so many don't think their beliefs through so that they have a thorough understanding of why they have taken on that particular view or belief.

So I hope you understand where I am coming from with all this and other issues in which I become involved.
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

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Re: Who bare shaft tunes their arrows?

#22 Post by Mick Smith » Tue Feb 24, 2015 4:08 pm

Unfortunately Dennis, you won't be getting much of a vigorous debate from me on this subject. For a start, I don't know enough about it and secondly I don't hold strong views either for bare shaft tuning or against it. Vigorous debating, either for it or against it, wasn't high on my list of motives for creating this thread. I was simply curious to see if it was popular with Ozbow members or not.

Does bare shaft tuning have some merit? Yes, I believe it does under some circumstances. I don't believe that it would be so popular and so widely used if it didn't have any merit at all. Can it do any harm to people who might want to try it? No, I strongly doubt it. At worst it might waste some of their time. I don't understand why you seem to be so dead set against bare shaft tuning when you have never even tried it. Your arguments against it so far, haven't been particularly scientific and they can't be based on personal experience, because you admit that you've never tried it. Do you oppose it on idealistic grounds?

In my view, bare shaft tuning is just another tool that archers can use or not use, as they see fit. It's use doesn't warrant a song and dance routine or a vigorous debate, IMO. They either use it or they don't. It shouldn't effect anyone else.
There is no use focusing on aiming if you don't execute the shot well enough to hit what your are aiming at.

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Re: Who bare shaft tunes their arrows?

#23 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Tue Feb 24, 2015 4:51 pm

Mick et al,

I have gone through all your references and now I think I have a pretty good idea of what you blokes are on about. I will post some more about it a bit later.
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

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Re: Who bare shaft tunes their arrows?

#24 Post by Mick Smith » Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:08 pm

This is what bare shaft tuning means to me.

The best thing about bare shaft tuning is that it allows me to determine whether or not my new arrow shafts will shoot well from my bow before I've gone to the trouble of making them up to completion.

Before I knew about bare shaft tuning, I would just do as most people do. I would refer to the spine charts and make some calculations and then I would order my new shafts. Once I got them home I would cut them to length and make them up ready to shoot.

Prior to my knowledge of bare shaft tuning, shooting new arrows was always a bit of a lucky dip. I never really knew for certain how they would shoot. 9 times out of 10 they would shoot okay. When I say okay, I mean they would be usable. They might shoot a bit to the left or a bit to the right, but I would soon get used to them and I would eventually compensate for the different point of impact automatically. Sometimes I would make a set that just wouldn't shoot well at all and I didn't really know why.

These days, I still refer to the spine charts and make my calculations like I used to, but now I don't go ahead and cut the shafts to my draw length (plus an inch) like I used to and then make them up. I bare shaft tune 1 or 2 of the shafts first to ensure they will fly well. I start off by leaving the shaft quite long, longer than I think will be necessary. I then taper the ends of the shaft and glue the nock on. Instead of gluing the point on, at this stage I just slip the point into place and hold it temporarily in place with some electrical tape wrapped around where the shaft and point meet. This holds it securely enough for a few shots to be able to do some bare shaft tuning.

I then shoot the bare shafts into the bale from about 5 metres. I do this repeatedly, until I can determine for sure, which way the shafts are angled. This tells me straightaway whether or not my shafts are underspined or overspined. Hopefully, they will be underspined, but not too underspined. I can determine this because in the vast marjority of the cases, my bare shaft hit slightly to the right of where I was looking and the nock will be angled back to the left.

Now, it's just a case of trimming 1/2 inch off the length of the shaft before trying the process again. I simply unpeel the tape and detach the point. I then cut the half inch off, sand a new point taper and reattach the point with more tape. I then shoot the bare shaft/s into the bale again and I keep doing it until I'm certain of how the shaft is impacting. If it's still hitting slightly to the right, with the nock angling back to the left, I know that I have to take another half inch off the shaft.

It's just a matter of repeating this process until the arrow impacts with the bale consistently at right angles and where I'm aiming. This tells me that the shaft, at this length, now has a dynamic spine that's near to perfect for my bow. Now it's just a case of cutting all of the shafts to the same length and making the arrows to completion. It doesn't take very long to bare shaft tune a couple of shafts really. The last time I did it, the shafts only required 4 cuts, of half an inch, before they were impacting beautifully. It probably cost me an hour or so.

If by chance, the shafts turn out to be slightly overspined during bare shaft tuning, all is not lost. It's possible that by using heavier points, the dynamic spine can be brought back a little, making the shafts usable. If they're overspined, the shafts will impact slightly to the left of the target and the nocks will be angled back to the right.

I know there's more to bare shaft tuning than just this, but I don't care much about the other processes. What's important to me, is that now I know I have a set of arrows that will definitely shoot well from my bow. They won't shoot a few inches to the left or the right, they will shoot exactly where I'm looking and if they don't, I can only blame myself and my poor form.
Last edited by Mick Smith on Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is no use focusing on aiming if you don't execute the shot well enough to hit what your are aiming at.

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Re: Who bare shaft tunes their arrows?

#25 Post by Ronster » Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:49 pm

Geeeees, this is really a hot topic. IMO, just take the bare shaft method as a tool to give you more enjoyment with your archery. I use it and believe in the results that I achieve, but I would not even attempt to put it down or expect anyone to explain its complete science. Try it if you like, if you don't like, don't do it! Its Simple.
PS---- Fact shoot an arrow that has not been bare shaft tuned, if it spine is too stiff. it will fly to the left of target with nock leaning to the right
Fact, if the spine is too weak the arrow will fly to the right and the nock will lean to the left.
Fact, a bare shafted, tuned arrow, will fly straight. The advantage here is. that on a rainy day on the range when your feathers lay flat and wet, the arrows will still fly straight.
Try it!

Ronster
I would love to be an expert, but experience and lack of knowledge holds me back!

Bows:-
Raven Vanquish 62" TD Recurve 44# @ 28"
Beaver 64" Longbow 41# @ 27"
Bear Montana 64" Longbow 50# @ 28"
Win & Win Winact ILF Riser and Win & Win Pro accent ILF carbon foam limbs 48# @ 28"

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Re: Who bare shaft tunes their arrows?

#26 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:20 pm

Mick,

I have gone through Mick's list of references and I now consider that the technique is a valid tool in archery, but that its best and most appropriate use is as a remedy for problems with arrow flight which have been demonstrated and persist after all the usual rules of selection of arrow shafts have been applied to one's best ability and the arrow flight is still found wanting.

I cannot see it as a preventive technique superior to the normal arrow selection techniques which have been very long established in archery, but most certainly, it would go a long way to ironing out any problems still existing if those more traditional process have not worked. In that application, I can see it having great value.

I can also see how it would be of considerable value in removing the small remaining problems in arrow flight at the Olympic or top level field archery competition where that level of fine-tuning wins or loses competitions. At that level, the technique assumes an importance far in excess of anything any of us ordinary archery are likely to be able to use in every day archery or bowhunting.

Interestingly, the technique seems designed for finger looses only.

Ronster,
Why are you assuming that this is a HOT debate aka an angry argument? I have not seen it as such at any stage and I have not detected that in any other posts above, so I am perplexed at how you have arrived at that opinion. It was you after all who stated quite clearly that the science was proven.

It is not unreasonable therefore, for anybody to ask you to explain that science if you belief in the veracity of its claims as proven science which form the basis of your belief.

I will always argue my case strongly. That is not the same as angry. I have not become angered by the claims of any body thus far. I stated quite clearly above that I take everybody's input seriously, but that does not restrict me to acceptance of an argument which I can see is full of holes and inconsistencies. Poor arguments ought to be challenged.

Going on further to infer that I or any body else is putting it down is a very weak reason for your claim. It strongly suggests that you have little real understanding of the very technique for which you claim so much.
Ronster wrote:Try it if you like, if you don't like, don't do it! Its Simple.
That kind of statement seems to me to be little more than an intellectual cop-out. Neither I nor anybody else is obliged to accept your argument at face value, especially if it is clearly faulty. In your own case, you have not even bothered to put any kind of supporting argument where Mick at least has gone to some trouble to provide something in support of his.

At no point have I challenged your or anybody else's right to practise your archery preferences in any way which pleases you. You seem to have assumed that I have been attacking that right. I have only ever, thoughout this debate, asked why, and to give reasons in support.

You appear to have only seen that questioning as some sort of attack on your preferences and taken some umbrage. There is nothing especially sacred about what you like to do or derive enjoyment from any more than the same for me. But if I make the claim for a technique as scientifically established, anybody is correctly and properly entitled to ask 'Why and How'.

I am by nature a skeptic. I will always ask you to show me your proof. That is the extent of it. Malice or ridicule has nothing to do with it.
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

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Re: Who bare shaft tunes their arrows?

#27 Post by Mick Smith » Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:29 am

Well Dennis, at least you sound as though you're no longer 'bemused' by the process of bare shaft tuning. That's a start. :smile:

In the very unlikely event that anyone read my previous post with a view to using it to guide them though the process of bare shaft tuning for their own use. I would like to point out that in my original post, I got my lefts and rights a bit mixed up. I have now fixed it up. Sorry about that. :doh:

Unlike Dennis, I don't see it as a choice between bare shaft tuning or using the accepted spine charts. I see bare shaft tuning as a process you might undergo, after you've made your shaft selection from the accepted spine charts. The spine charts and the shafts themselves are made up in blocks of 5 lbs. It stands to reason that the accepted and time honoured method of shaft selection it's not an exact or perfect science, rather its more of a general guideline, IMO. Bare shaft tuning goes some way towards making the 'science' a little more accurate to your specific needs. It's a process that I only undertake when I'm using a new bow, and/or shafts that I haven't tried before. If I'm just making up my next batch of arrows to replace the ones that I've broken, or managed to lose, I will simply replicate my old arrows, knowing full well that they will perform in the same manner.
There is no use focusing on aiming if you don't execute the shot well enough to hit what your are aiming at.

littlejohn59

Re: Who bare shaft tunes their arrows?

#28 Post by littlejohn59 » Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:13 pm

Hey Mick
You have raised an interesting topic! Thoughts on the subject and replies from fellow archers have been varied.

My 5 cents worth as we don't have a 1 or 2 cent coin anymore!

Initially anyway with a new bow I bare shaft my arrows. Once done its never required again.
2 reasons for bare shafting... Feathers mask arrow flight and I want the best flight out of my arrows that I can obtain.

Tuning with feathers is a quick and easy way of tuning an arrow. The release does not have to be perfect and most archers are able to achieve a quick and a reasonable result with a minimum of fuss. The reason being, feathers stabilise the arrow in flight.

However bare shaft tuning requires a good release and form and shows true arrow flight unaided.

Having a tuned arrow is part and parcel of the whole deal. I want my bow tuned to me and i want my arrow tuned to my bow!

Yes i think bare shafting is worth it.


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Re: Who bare shaft tunes their arrows?

#29 Post by Ronster » Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:55 pm

Hi Liitlejon59, You have probable explained it better that I! I cannot compete with intellectual babble, too deep for me.
So I will stay happy in the knowledge that, many of the worlds top archers use this method, whilst some may not.

Their choice, as is mine.

Ronster
I would love to be an expert, but experience and lack of knowledge holds me back!

Bows:-
Raven Vanquish 62" TD Recurve 44# @ 28"
Beaver 64" Longbow 41# @ 27"
Bear Montana 64" Longbow 50# @ 28"
Win & Win Winact ILF Riser and Win & Win Pro accent ILF carbon foam limbs 48# @ 28"

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Re: Who bare shaft tunes their arrows?

#30 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:50 pm

Mick,

I am grateful to you for providing the reference sources that you did. I was never intellectually locked against it, but I was locked against unsubstantiable and unsubstantiated claims.

I can understand now why you prefer the process, however as I began with, I have never had a problem with arrow flight that I could observe. Certainly Littlejohn 59 and Kendaric above point out that fletching masks a lot and I am sure it does. It is just that from a practical level of day to day shooting, if my arrows go where I look and there is no sign of horizontal or vertical oscillation, I leave well enough alone.

Having said that, If either of those oscillations appeared despite my ususal and careful arrow selection process, I would certainly resort to the bare-shaft method to rectify the problems, but my present level of talent is well served with arrows withing a 5lb spine range.

As one particular writer in your many references pointed out, that if an arrow is oscillating significantly in flight, velocity decreases and energy is lost to the atmosphere (in the form of heat) further reducing both kinetic energy and momentum.

With regard to arrows striking left or right of the mark, that has never really been an issue to me. I put that down to my natural cant which seems to bring the plane of paradox closer to the line of sight. In a vertically held bow, that plane of paradox is horizontal and at 90 degrees to the vertical axis of the bow, but when canted, that plane brings both the line of sight and the plane of paradox much closer together, obviating many of the problems of normal paradox.

This is purely an hypothesis on my part and remains to be proven of course. But it does to some way to explaining why I don't seem to have many of the problems which it seems that others have with using varying and over spine arrows from the same bow. For instance, I have noted that very stiff arrows tend to strike a little bit higher than those closer to the recommended. Shot from a vertical bow, as you understand, stiff arrows tend to strike to the left of the mark because they push away from the arrow plate much harder. That same amount of push against the bow on a canted bow seems to push the arrow to a slightly higher trajectory.

Back in my early ABA comp days, I used to hold point on the group 5 targets with my bow heavily canted which allowed the arrows to just drop into the 20 or 18 zone remarkably often where the same hold would never work with the bow held vertically. It was that observation which started me thinking along that line.

But, as I say, for the present, it is only a personal hypothesis and it would be interesting if any body else who cants their bow has noticed it. But that is a topic for another thread.
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

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