Marketing differences between trad gear and compounds.

[Mick Smith]

This thread isn't meant to be about bagging compound shooters. I don't have anything against compounders at all. In fact I feel privileged to call a few of them friends.

To my mind, the biggest difference between most trad shooters and most compound shooters has to do with a strong desire for the latest and greatest technical advancements. Actually, it's more of a need for the latest techno gear, that most compound users seem to have. It's true, we have a few trad shooters who might also be afflicted with this state of mind, but it's usually minor in comparison.

Try selling any compound archery gear that's more than a couple of years old. It loses most of its initial value, as it doesn't correspond with the need for the latest and greatest. Older compounds are worth a small fraction of their original price. Whereas, an older traditional bows will retain a much higher proportion of its initial value over many years.

The major compound companies release their bows on a regular basis, either each year or at the very least, every couple of years. Most trad bow manufacturers, even the big ones, have a few models which they retain in their line up for many years, without any changes at all. A classic example among many, would be the Bear Grizzly. It has been around now for about 50 years and it's still going strong. There's nothing similar in the compound arena and there never will be, because it's constantly being updated and 'improved'.

I liken the compound bow market to the car market. People are expected to update their units on a regular basis, even when there's nothing actually wrong with what they've got. The advertising surrounding compound bows is full of glitz and glamour and it plays a big part in ensuring sales. It's a multi million dollar market. It's huge. The trad market in comparison, is tiny.

Talking about this is simply stating the obvious to most of us. I think we all realise the differences even if we don't often talk about them.

Personally, I'm very happy to be a trad shooter. It's life in the slow lane and that's where I like it.

[Stickbow Hunter]

I agree Mick but sadly the differences between the two is getting ever smaller. This has really become evident in recent years.

Jeff

[CraigH]

Yeah your right Mick, the marketing and market perception is very different.

Alot of difference, say for example, a 10 year old Black Widow recurve compared to a 10 year old Hoyt compound bow in retaining it's value.

[Mick Smith]

I think that's a big positive in our favour Craig. After all, if you fork out big bucks for your dream bow, it's nice to know that it will retain a good proportion of it's value over a long period of time, when/if you decide to sell it. What's more, when we do eventually sell our dream trad bow, it won't be because it has become out-dated, with superseded technology, it will be because we have found a new dream bow, and the sale of our old bow will give us a good start, financially, to pay for it.

[toby]

Resale Value can vary greatly. Loosing half your value after 6 or 12 months is not what I would call good resale value even if it holds that 50% for the next 10 years. I've seen plenty of bows for sale that still struggle to sell after 12 months & half the initial cost. Used trad gear holds its value much better in the U.S. than here. There are certain bows that do better than others but none of them are great.
Mick I noticed your whip is still listed for sale, it cost over a grand landed in OZ yet at $600 it still hasn't sold. In the US it would probably be gone by now at that price.Certainly not over priced!
Here Trad archery seems to attract more people that are either not willing to Spend much for quality gear or are more interested in home made gear & that's ok there's nothing wrong with being self sufficient. I would hate to be trying to make a living out of manufacturing Trad gear in Oz, you would probably be working for $2 an hour. I certainly respect the passion of our Oz Bowyers because they are definitely not making bows to make a fortune so it has to be for the passion.

[perry]

Human Nature pure and simple and the Marketing People are Masters at reading this. I'm not sure from a Marketing Perspective we are much different.

Bright and Shiny Exotic Wood Riser Bow with Flashy Laminations and Clear Glass, Magnificent set of Gaudy Wallace Woods, Heavily Tooled and Inlayed Back Quiver, latest Leatherman Multitool and the Mother of all Diamond encrusted Mega Bowie Knives on Hip = latest Release Aid, Multi Pin Lighted Sight, RangeFinder 1200+, Steiner Binoculars and Harness, Lycra Undergarments and 340FPS IBO. We are not so different from a Marketing perspective - Come in Spinner.

We all like to mix with like minded Folks, a night around the Camp Fire with either Group is not so different, we both like to sit down, mines bigger, faster, brighter, shinier, better than Yours.

regards Perry

[Mick Smith]

All too true Perry.

[rodlonq]

Too right Perry, especially around the camp fire..... you shoulda seen the ones that got away

Cheers.... Rod

[Dennis La Varenne]

That's curious, because I have never had an occasion around any kind of campfire or elswehere where I have compared bows. Very many times, I have explained how I made a bow and perhaps what I expected from it and the same with arrows but that was always a teacher/student relationship. I cannot really ever say that I was particularly interested in another's bow unless there was a technical aspect in the way it was built from which I could improve my bowyery.

I have never been possessed by the supermarket mentality of modern archers and the need to out-compete another archer with the latest gear or if they cannot shoot well, to vicariously out-compete their competiton with the impressive cost of their latest acquistion. Modern factory produced archery holds no fascination for me at all. It has no 'soul' and is produced impersonally on a production line in huge numbers and just doesn't stir my interest even a little bit. Despite the advertising hype accompanying them, they are merely clones and like the old song goes - "all made out of ticky tacky and the all look just the same."

[Mick Smith]

Modern factory produced archery holds no fascination for me at all. It has no 'soul' and is produced impersonally on a production line in huge numbers and just doesn't stir my interest even a little bit. Despite the advertising hype accompanying them, they are merely clones and like the old song goes - "all made out of ticky tacky and the all look just the same."

When it comes to most modern traditional bows, the term 'factory' probably wouldn't apply. The vast majority are made by skilled bowyers in small workshops, much the same kind of environment that bows have been made for thousands of years. I take it, Dennis, you're talking about compound bows here and also perhaps recurve bows that are made with metal risers, etc.

[Dennis La Varenne]

Mick,

I include all those non-compound bows made by the large archery manufacturers, all-wood and otherwise.

They are all mass-produced in large numbers today from the same template. Even Fred Bear had to get rid of his custom bowyers back in the early 1950s (in particular, Nels Grumley who believed that good bows could only be made one at a time resigned and left Bear Archery) because handmade bows were too slow to manufacture and in too small volumes. They were running a business and it made no business sense to continue the older methods of bowmaking when the same could be done mainly by machinery with a bit of hand finishing which was and still is kept to a very minimum. They would have been well out of business by now if they had not been able to do so. Mass production has a low tolerance for variety.

All of those archery businesses still in business have gone down the same street. That of course makes perfect business sense and I would do the same if I were an archery gear manufacturer. The only place where bows are made from the components to the finished bow these days is by those few 'custom' bowyers and other small single person or family concerns.

Today, I can go from archery dealer to archery dealer online and in shops and see exactly the same bow time and time again, both trad style and compound. The only difference seems to be in wood or glass colour.

Even the two Red Wing Hunters I recently disposed of were near clones other than draw weight. Classics of the 1950s and 1960s style of recurved bow that they were, they were still mass produced to a template, but were one of the few recurved bows which had actual functioning recurved limbs. But even they 'all looked just the same'. One bought a Red Wing Hunter because you could guarantee that the one I bought would be the same as the one you bought. Branding was and is an integral part of the game and everything within the brand must be the same in order to guarantee a certain style and performance, otherwise the system does not work.

Even the bows made in the era of the wood bow suffered the same issues and I have around 250 of them in my collection. The bows of any manufacturer needed to be recognisable as a bow from that manufacturer as part of the marketing process. But, being wood only, there is an was a very obvious amount of handwork involved even though the back and handle profiles were at least 'cousins' and the bow tips were often typical for brand. These bows were cut out to a template usually of half limb length which becomes obvious when you find a 'Friday' bow where the template was not properly aligned with the centre line of the blank and one limb is not in straight line with its mate. This happened more than you might realise, but I have a large enough collection I think to be able to notice this as a fault among these bows.

When I compare say, 4 bows of almost the same draw weight made by Indian Archery for instance, they each have very different cast and the thickness of the limb material varies quite a lot. The width profiles also vary quite a lot too. In fact, the most consistent feature identifying any bow from that period is commonly the handle shape and covering. Apart from being mainly rectangular sectioned limbs, the width and thickness profiles vary considerably. My present 'go-to' bow is an Indian Archery Lemonwood long flatbow of 40lbs @28" with just under 1 inch of string follow. It shoots very quickly with 9.5gn/lb period footed target arrows, but the upper limb is off line by 3/8" because of misalignment of the manufacturer's width template.

Later glues and glass fibre changed all that forever. Bows can now be made in wide slabs and pressed into shape under huge presses with heat then band-sawed off the slab like sausage slices at the deli then profiled using various sanding machines and jigs for consistency of form.

Your fiduciary probity would be suspect not to adopt such techniques in this age. It is just that I have no interest in modern mass-produced bows.