The disparity between some US trad sites and Ozbow.

[Mick Smith]

I was just surfing the web and I came across a traditional archery forum site called Trad Talk, which is based in the States. They seem like a nice bunch of blokes. The talk his sometimes very controversial, but they never seem to have heated exchanges. I like the way they can discuss all subjects without resorting to emotional outbursts.

They have a forum on Trad Talk called. ''Friends of the NRA'', which is something I doubt you would find on any other archery site worldwide. On this forum they discuss the merits of certain handguns for self defence, etc. I've never been to the US, but it must be a very dangerous place to live.

The thing that struck me the most, after having a good look at the site, is their almost exclusive tendency to use the very latest gear, such as ILF bows, carbon limbs, foam cores, etc, etc. From what I've read, very few members use the sort of gear that's so common in Australia. There's almost no mention at all of one piece longbows or recurves, however 3 piece recurves are fairly commonly mentioned.

I'm not knocking the members of Trad Talk. I'm just reflecting on the differences between this site and Ozbow. The differences are much more marked than what I expected them to be.

[GrahameA]

Hi Mick.

My observation would be this.

There is Trad and there is "Trad". Some people like actual old stuff and some people like pseudo "old stuff".

As far as gear goes somewhere you need to draw a line ....... as you have observed drawing exactly where that line goes will result in some large 'debates'.

As far as /legislation/Danger/whatever go ...... I am of the opinion that the US is probably no worse/better than Oz and just like Oz places and people run the the wide spectrum of things.
........

On a related topic you may want to watch this. Fast foward to 3:15 into the clip. It says a lot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zqOYBabXmA

[greybeard]

....There's almost no mention at all of one piece longbows or recurves, however 3 piece recurves are fairly commonly mentioned........

I believe at one stage it was popular to have one riser that could be interchanged with target or hunting weight limbs. Apart from the draw weight the bow always felt the same.

On a related topic you may want to watch this. Fast foward to 3:15 into the clip. It says a lot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zqOYBabXmA

The series was an excellent production.

Daryl.

[Roadie]

America and Australia, how we differ, One speaks Bastardised English, the other speaks or tries to speak proper English, and never the Twain will meet. Just look at there Gun Laws and Look at ours. Poles apart. Just my 2 bobs thought for the Day. Cheers Roadie.

[perry]

I joined Trad Talk about the same time I joined Ozbow, the Forums are Poles apart. I check in occasionly to keep up with whats going on but rarely post, same as what I've adopted recently with Ozbow. I find it much clearer and more satisfying to communicate with a Person Face to Face or over the Phone. There is also a marked cultural difference between the 2 Country's which must be considered. They did begin as a Colony and had Convicts, they had a Revolutionary War, we did not, they had a Civil War, we did not, they acknowledge and even celebrate their Frontier Wars, we are only just coming around to the fact we had them, they have a Bill of Rights, we do not - the significant factors which shaped the differences between Australia and America are numerous. I won't start on their Politics!

regards Jacko

[daserdark]

tradgang.com is the one you wanna read mate.

[rooni79]

I really enjoy Tradtalk, and have learnt more on it than any other site. And like you said, there is no right or wrong on there, just people interested in what works etc.
Whilst I'm not trad enough for some, I enjoy shooting my ILF rig with carbon arrows of an elevated rest, three under, using a 20m fixed crawl

I've asked some Q's on Trad Gang and was pretty much told to just go and shoot more!

[toby]

Hi Mick
most of the guys on there own a variety of trad bows not just ilf. They talk a lot about ilf gear as it is a site that accepts all forms of trad archery from self bows to Olympic style and any where in between. They are very big on respecting each other's opinions & preferences. They are not a dedicated trad hunting site like Tradgang, they cater to both trad hunters & trad target archers.
Both sites are good sites with a lot of good people.

[Dennis La Varenne]

The US version of 'traditiional archery' is the same as what many people in Australia follow. Very few of US archers know the history of their own archery and how it changed from the English tradition. That knowledge has all been forgotten largely.

The US fascination for new technologies is also a factor in their acceptance of modern version of what has become regarded as traditional archery.

Australia has largely followed the US version of archery rather than the English which I attribute to a sympathy with the American democratization of knowledge where the English tended to hold onto a more Guild-like protectionist view of the skills of archery.

However, what both Jeff and I have tried to do with Ozbow is to try to educate and preserve the much older forms of archery which long predate the present version of so-called traditional archery. In recent years, the Americans have produced the four-volume set of books which have become bibles of traditional bowbuilding, but almost nobody knows that much, more than these books contain was well and truly understood and practised in target archery in particular due to the work of Hickman, Klopsteg and Nagler as far back as the 1930s and 1940s.

Those four books of the Traditional Bowyer's Bibles rarely or at all mention the work of Hickman et al and their previous work and give them their due regard as the real giants of archery. Nobody before or since has contributed so much to the knowledge of how bows and arrows work, and almost nobody today has ever heard of them or their work - especially those on the US trad sites that I have visited. So much of the work of those scientists has been used in the development of modern equipment and without which modern archery, including the compound bow, may never have been created.

This is the principal difference between Ozbow and almost all other archery sites. We believe that our historical heritage must be preserved and acknowledged for what it has given us. Modern archery is like the ungrateful child who does not care for what its parents have given it.

[Mick Smith]

When I think back to sixties and the seventies, it quickly became obvious to me that technology and archery went hand in hand. You had only to look at the profusion of way out designs that were continuously coming onto the market to realise there was a lot happening behind the scenes. It wasn't just the backyard inventors either, the larger companies such as Bear and Ben Pearson were constantly bringing out new and 'improved' bows and accessories. It's just the way it was.

The US was the land where anyone with a good idea and some luck could make it rich. The old adage about the building of a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door, certainly applied to the archery industry. The compound bow was a product of this drive to build a better mousetrap. This principal may not be quite as prevalent as it once was, but it's certainly still with us with non-compound archery tackle. It's not just the US who are effected either, the British company, Border, is now known for their cutting edge and innovative products.

Here at Ozbow, we have chosen to focus much of our attention to the preservation of archery as it was in the pre compound bow era. Also, I think Ozbow also largely reflects the attitudes of Australian traditional archers, which I believe, on the whole, are a lot different to the attitudes of most US traditional archers. Trad Talk perhaps reflects the different mind set in many ways and their different attitudes to change, IMO. It's not a bad thing, it's just different.

[Chase N. Nocks]

Hi Mick,

I really like Trad Talk and have learned a lot from that site.

There are so many good archery forums out there and to be honest I like most of them as they all have something to offer, in varying degrees, even if it is just to sit in on an archery discussion for no other reason because you like to talk bows and arrows.

Leatherwall, Tradgang, Trad Talk for trad, Pirates of Archery is another good one while not predominantly trad they have an irreverence that I quite enjoy, almost a trad mentality .

My problem is there are not enough hours in the day (for anything) and I get onto these site all too infrequently.

Trad Talk is definitely the place I would send a new archer that was expressing an interest in the "modern-trad" side of archery.

Ozbow and Archery Forum are pretty much the only two Aussie forums I visit.

Cheers
Troys

[Jim]

I don't know Mick, I suspect it may be a case of only getting a small view of what is naturally going to be a more diverse group (courtesy of more people being involved) that's lead you to thinking Americans have a very different view of trad archery.

[Mick Smith]

I don't know Mick, I suspect it may be a case of only getting a small view of what is naturally going to be a more diverse group (courtesy of more people being involved) that's lead you to thinking Americans have a very different view of trad archery.

Yeah, maybe Jim. Perhaps many of the members of Trad Talk prefer using high-tech equipment, more so than the members of other US forum sites. I don't recall visiting other US trad sites where the general theme of conversation was so cutting edge, technically oriented. I suppose we have plenty of 'tech heads' involved in traditional archery (or is it non-compound archery?) here in Australia too and there's nothing wrong with that either.

Personally, I like Trad Talk, but I'd find it even more interesting if they focussed more on the types of equipment that I prefer to use.

[littlejohn59]

Hey Mick, after reading your forum on the U.S. and comparing ozbow I agree with your observations of the differences in the forums.

Just to give you a small indication these were my observations of the U.S. trad scene when i visited last year.

Briefly the US are geared more for ilf type bows for hunting and competition. They lean more to using aluminium/carbon type arrows than wood.
Recurves are far more popular than longbows. I would almost say 2 to 1.

Most shooters use the lightest possible arrows for their bows. If their bows break they can easily be replaced and replacement is relatively cheap in the US. Where as here in Oz its a little more difficult.

Hunting is a huge sport over there. It is also widely accepted in the general community over there,where as it is not here.

I can't remember which state it was, but i think Wisconsin, 3000 deer were killed by rifle and 1000 were killed by bow & arrow in the 2013 hunting season alone.

Something else i discovered was that everyone was very patriotic and religious as in God Bless America. Many many homes displayed the American flag.

With the American population being more than 10 times of Australia there is more participation and information passed on through there forums.

I have attached a photo of bows that could be loaned out to archers for trial over the weekend from big Jims Archery tent at the 2013 World Trad shoot. This is just to give you some idea! By the way that was only 1 of 2 stands. Now drool.

I don't think you would see that many bows in a TRAD shoot here.....lol

[little arrows]

a good friend of mine went over to USA and did quite a few Trad tournaments over there. He noted, everyone seems to start on the first target, even though there is a lot of archers at a shoot which I guess you would have noticed Ian.

cheers
sue

[Jim]

To be honest, this conversation seems a little unhinged from reality. I've spent a fair bit of time in the US and my experience is that you won't find more passionate and interested bowhunters anywhere. Their base of 'traditionalists' support a healthy national trad organisation, a plethora of trad clubs, a couple of trad only magazines and a primitive only mag. I know of one trad bowhunting mag that at least once or twice a year has articles dedicated to european archery heritage, while we can't support a single trad archery publication.

There are comments above about 'unknown' giants in the archery scene who are members of the US Archery Hall of Fame for gosh sake. America's supposed lack of enthusiasm for wooden shafts only supports multiple producers of raw shafting, which in turn supports a plethora of custom fletchers (including fletchers here in Australia).

Sure, there are plenty of yanks who love very modern archery tackle, and forums with NRA specific threads. But there are plenty of them who love selfbows and wooden shafts, and forums where photos or discussions of firearms, gps and quad bikes are banned.

I'd be embarrassed if some of my American friends read some of the comments posted here.

Jim

[daserdark]

To be honest, this conversation seems a little unhinged from reality. I've spent a fair bit of time in the US and my experience is that you won't find more passionate and interested bowhunters anywhere. Their base of 'traditionalists' support a healthy national trad organisation, a plethora of trad clubs, a couple of trad only magazines and a primitive only mag. I know of one trad bowhunting mag that at least once or twice a year has articles dedicated to european archery heritage, while we can't support a single trad archery publication.

There are comments above about 'unknown' giants in the archery scene who are members of the US Archery Hall of Fame for gosh sake. America's supposed lack of enthusiasm for wooden shafts only supports multiple producers of raw shafting, which in turn supports a plethora of custom fletchers (including fletchers here in Australia).

Sure, there are plenty of yanks who love very modern archery tackle, and forums with NRA specific threads. But there are plenty of them who love selfbows and wooden shafts, and forums where photos or discussions of firearms, gps and quad bikes are banned.

I'd be embarrassed if some of my American friends read some of the comments posted here.

Jim

Totally agree with you Jim, I've been visiting the forum that I recommended above a lot and most of them shoot longbows and stay away from gadgets.
There is a tone of good info out there guys, just gotta make the effort of actually looking for it.

[toby]

My thoughts were the same as yours Jim, I struggled with some of what was written. If you spend some time on Tradtalk & Tradgang you would find a lot of the same people on both sites. Ilf is more readily accepted over there by both the trad hunters as well as the trad target archers but it is by no means bigger than standard takedown or one piece trad bows but it is growing all the time as it seems they are able to accept it for what it is ( just another way to attach limbs to a riser ) anybody that has spent time on Tradgang would know that they don't promote the use of lite arrows for Hunting, the general consensus is a minimum of ten grains per pound. They do how ever use light bows by our standards. Most of the guys over there like us can't just go and replace a bow if they blow the limbs up, money doesn't grow on trees over there any more than it does here, & good custom hand made equipment is expensive no matter where you are & some of there wait times can be over two years. Yes a lot more trad target archers do use lighter arrows over there as they do here.
I agree with the fact that they are very patriotic & religious beliefs are quite strong in the trad archery community & there bill of rights does shape there out look.
All in all they seem to respect people's rights to make there own choices in what gear they shoot & they generally don't judge people by it.
While carbons & alloys are popular over there woods are just as popular in the trad scene still.
This is a link to just one post that has grown on wood arrows.
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb. ... 1;t=106699