vanes and recurves.

[bigbob]

took my new take down 'curve out to our club to show it around a bit as one does[!] and never took any woods [!] so resorted to using 340 carbons and vanes for a 50# bow. Those damn carbons and the VANES flew like darts . I only tried out to 25m but the damn things flew like a guided missile. I know its cut to 1/8'' past centre but fully expected at least some vane 'kick' past the shelf.Unreal!

[Bald Eagle]

Expanding your horizons Bob. Can't wait to have a try with the new curve. Ian

[bigbob]

yeah mate, shoots very well! Will have it out the club next weekend !

[GrahameA]

Morning All.

... but fully expected at least some vane 'kick' past the shelf. ...

Why?

[bigbob]

It is my understanding, flawed or otherwise that vanes being made of a much stiffer material than feathers with their natural propensity to fold down on contact, would 'resist' the lateral force being applied by the motion of a smaller diameter shaft travelling across the shelf with the wider and semi rigid vanes in hot pursuit.Some thing to do with the fulcrum principal I would imagine.

[discord]

Uh Oh, I feel a GrahameA sermon coming

[kerry]

[GrahameA]

Afternoon.

It is my ...

What?
Simple comment. Any arrow that is somewhere near the appropriate spine with something like an appropriate nocking point is going to high and to the side of the bow as the fletches go past the riser/arrowrest/hand. Refer Archers Paradox.

Note how far the fletches are away from the riser/hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGNslUNBrEM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drmpx3tnEQw

And for those who are bored and want something to read - http://www.real-world-physics-problems. ... chery.html

[bigbob]

Hmmmm! so how would you explain the marks left on vanes when using a barebow with something like a 'springy rest pray tell.By those marks the edge of the vanes would still be in contact with the shelf as it passes the window. I do understand what you have said but by your understanding [ and others] the vanes should be convoluting around the shelf without contact.

[GrahameA]

Morning Bob.

Hmmmm! so how would you explain the marks left on vanes when using a barebow with something like a 'springy rest pray tell.By those marks the edge of the vanes would still be in contact with the shelf as it passes the window. I do understand what you have said but by your understanding [ and others] the vanes should be convoluting around the shelf without contact.

If you are having contact issues then either the frequency is inappropriate, amplitude is inappropriate nocking point is in appropriate or combinations thereof

[bigbob]

frequency is 104.9FM, Amplitude is 13, and nocking point is on string!

[Kendaric]

Morning Bob.

Hmmmm! so how would you explain the marks left on vanes when using a barebow with something like a 'springy rest pray tell.By those marks the edge of the vanes would still be in contact with the shelf as it passes the window. I do understand what you have said but by your understanding [ and others] the vanes should be convoluting around the shelf without contact.

If you are having contact issues then either the frequency is inappropriate, amplitude is inappropriate nocking point is in appropriate or combinations thereof

There is also a difference between shooting off a shelf, and shooting off a elevated arrow rest with plunger button, though the tuning principles still apply. I have seen footage of the archers paradox several times before, and I suspect the the arrow in the attached video was under-spined to create a more dramatic effect for the camera - for it to pass this far to the side as the footage showed.

[GrahameA]

Afternoon.

.... I have seen footage of the archers paradox several times before, and I suspect the the arrow in the attached video was under-spined to create a more dramatic effect for the camera - for it to pass this far to the side as the footage showed.

Having shot the odd few videos of arrows I will state that the spine of the arrow was correct.

If the spine was inappropriate then the frequency would be wrong and there would have been a collision between the arrow and the riser.

If you want to change the amplitude of the vibration change the point mass.

This is what happens when you shoot an underspined arrow. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSc6BRMR ... PT2Ftol7fw

[perry]

A well tuned Bow, with Matched Arrows shot off the Shelf should have no drama's shooting Vanes if you shoot Cock Vane in - try it, if the Van still contacts rotate the Nock until maximum clearance is obtained and try again.

regards Jacko

[toby]

Hi Perry, good to see you've got your interest back.
Watch this video to the end to see what a real under spined arrow can do.
http://youtu.be/96KGWC0PB6s

[GrahameA]

Hi Pery

A well tuned Bow, with Matched Arrows shot off the Shelf should have no drama's shooting Vanes if you shoot Cock Vane in - try it, if the Van still contacts rotate the Nock until maximum clearance is obtained and try again.

Yep. Which is why I commented -

... but fully expected at least some vane 'kick' past the shelf. ...

Why?

[Kendaric]

This is what happens when you shoot an underspined arrow.

There is a difference between shooting a slightly underspined arrow, and a grossly underspined one.

I also noticed that in the original video how the string left the fingers, which increased the horizontal movement. In real life, this arrow would have gone left of target.

Shooting off a shelf, this arrow would have needed a very high nocking point for the vanes to clear (not an issue on a raised rest so much), which would also result in a porpoising arrow.

[bigbob]

just to clarify a little my original comments did concern my takedown recurve shooting off the shelf, additional comments re marks on vanes actually occurred with a compound shooting off a 'springy' rest. Understand all said about 'archers paradox etc'

[Kendaric]

shooting Vanes if you shoot Cock Vane in

I have noticed a few people doing this.

[Ian Turner]

Hi I and a couple of trad guys i know shoot cock feather in; but thats with feathers.
Again i would have to agree with my limited knowledge that shooting the stiffer vanes would couse the arrow to kick left particularly shooting off the shelf but i will have to try experimenting now and see if my theory pans out.
Cheers
.

[perry]

Trust me Folks, a properly Spined Arrow does not contact any part of the Bow when shot out of a properly tuned Bow assuming consistent Form. Takes some time and effort though and many Folks have this idea that you just set up a Bow Rule of Thumb and She'll be right. There is a lot of info on this Forum and on the Net re tuning Bows and Arrow Spine, check it out. Trad Archers have been shooting Vanes off the Shelf Cock Vane in for many decades. Get that Bow Tuned and your Arrow Spine sorted and they'll shoot. If you just try switching from Feathers to Vanes with the same Arrow Shaft/ Combination you have changed the Arrows dynamics because Vanes are Heavier and have different Flight characteristics so may have to make fine tweek's to the Tuning.

regards Jacko

[Dennis La Varenne]

Could I point out that bigbob does not have a problem of any kind with his new arrows? He told us that in his first post. What exactly is this debate about??? Congratulate him on his success and move on.

[scuzz]

Could I point out that bigbob does not have a problem of any kind with his new arrows? He told us that in his first post. What exactly is this debate about??? Congratulate him on his success and move on.

Bob states how well the carbon arrows with 'VANES' flew out of his bow, and also states how he expected some 'kick' as they passed the shelf. The topic name is 'vanes and recurves.' and I have seen nothing out of topic throughout the thread. It seems as if you wish to eliminate constructive talk Dennis.

The talk about the archer's paradox being able to eliminate the kick of a vane is interesting as I have always assumed some 'kick' was assured. Thanks for the useful comments/information.

Scuzz

[Dennis La Varenne]

Skuzz,

As an administrator of this site, if I wanted to shut down 'constructive' talk here I could simply have locked the topic. I did not. All the constructive talk has been gone over in other threads ad infinitum and repeatedly as it tends to do on Ozbow.

Personally, I have not had any problems with the very few synthvanes I have tried in the past either. But so what????

And, I have never had to 'tune' any bow I have ever shot either and still cannot see any reason for it. I have never had a bow which shot badly including very many of my collection of over 200 bows from before the fibreglass period. They shoot either faster or slower than each other, but never badly. All arrows come out straight and fly like darts unless I pluck the string or other bad loose problems. But it is never the fault of the bow or the arrows.

Why people have all these problems is beyond me. 'Tuning' a bow was never spoken of in the day of wood bows in all the writings in my fairly extensive archery library. If you look through the publications I have listed at the end of the most recent Ozbow Glossary, you will see a list of most of those books I have.

Tuning bows seems to be a very modern invention due to causes of which I am unaware but strongly suggest that it is an archer problem and not an equipment problem unless of course that manufacturers are making inferior products.

[GrahameA]

Morning Scuzz.

... The topic name is 'vanes and recurves.' and I have seen nothing out of topic throughout the thread. It seems as if you wish to eliminate constructive talk Dennis. ...

You are correct.

Over most of the last decade this has been a friendly all encompassing Traditional Forum. There have been some strong debates but it has generally remained in a polite and respectful manner.

However. in the last six months it has taken a new significant turn.

... there are no hyssy fits here. There are debates, even if they are sometimes heated and you have a right to express your opinion like all of us..../quote]
Whilst this is the view that has been expressed as you have experienced that does not reflect reality.

Discussion about 'Trad Shoots' and the 'Rules they operate under has become a topic to be raised at running the risk of the displeasure of one of the Administrators, Dennis. Similarly it now appears that if the subject has been discussed commented on in the past it is forbidden.

... What exactly is this debate about??? Congratulate him on his success and move on.

And when you offered a comment you were jumped on.

... All the constructive talk has been gone over in other threads ad infinitum ...

My suggestion, once again, is to accept the situation - it is a privately owned site - and if you want to raise questions, comments, etc. on what appear to be topics that are frowned upon that you do so on another more welcoming Forum. e.g. Trad Talk, Tradgang , Archery Forum. Or just leave as some people have done.

As an Example after the comments regarding Trad Shoots I just posted my comment on Archery Forum. http://www.archery-forum.com/showthread ... Trad-Shoot That way I make a small effort not to upset Admin.

I also recommend you start a list of Topics that will cause issues, the following appear to touch raw nerves - anything to do with rules, anything to do with bows post the introduction of the compound bow, anything to do with Trad Shoots....... Develop your own list. Have a nice day.

[Dennis La Varenne]

Over most of the last decade this has been a friendly all encompassing Traditional Forum. There have been some strong debates but it has generally remained in a polite and respectful manner.

And it still is polite and respectful Grahame. It is only your take on the episode which is putting that light on it.

You are also mistaken about Ozbow being an all encompassing Traditional Forum. So long as Jeff and I have been administrators it has always been a forum dedicated to the preservation of pre-compound archery and nothing else. We have never pretended to be otherwise despite the perpetual endeavours of members trying to undermine that position by trying to turn into into a defacto ABA, 3DAAA, AA or other target oriented forum.

My little comment on the the topic is little more than a small piqued molehill at a subject which is boringly and endlessly repreated which you seem to be turning into an Everest of hostility. You offered the following comment to Scuzz -

And when you offered a comment you were jumped on.

You have gone to a great deal of trouble to trawl through the site to scratch up whatever you can to support your position and noted nothing at all where I have provided pages and pages of assistance to people asking questions.

So do please explain the difference between a reply in disagreement and ‘being jumped on’. I thought my little two sentence comment would not even be noticed let alone bothered with. So, it seems that from your position, ANY comment in disagreeing reply can be taken as ‘jumpin on’ or impolite or disrespectful. You do have thin skin.

You also wrote -

Whilst this is the view that has been expressed as you have experienced that does not reflect reality.

Well, you might consider justifying this bit. Did I or anyone prevent Scuzz having his say if he wanted to? Did I stop you for instance from your little outburst? Hardly. But I will not sit idly by and accept what is patently wrong and injurious to the purpose of Ozbow from anybody.

If you find Ozbow so offensive and intolerable in its insistence on adhering to a specific policy, there are other sites you can remove yourself to as you advise others have done. Nobody has ever been prevented from having their say on this forum, including yourself or Scuzz or anybody else unless they became personally attacking.

If, as you suggest, you get a better run elsewhere, then take your own advice.

The only thing that I can see from the above is that people’s skins are getting thinner and thinner and fragile enough that a differing opinion strongly put is now childishly hurtful. Nobody’s opinion including my own is sacrosanct against counter-opinion.

You seem to have a problem with that.

[GrahameA]

Morning Dennis.

... The only thing that I can see from the above is that people’s skins are getting thinner and thinner and fragile enough that a differing opinion strongly put is now childishly hurtful. Nobody’s opinion including my own is sacrosanct against counter-opinion. ....

From my viewpoint the only "skin" that seems to be getting thinner is yours otherwise you would not appear so act in such a different/'difficult'/strange manner.

One does not need to 'trawl' the Forum as you claim, all people need do is observe what is happening and I an not alone.

.... There have been some recent events in which I felt there was a distinct push to move away from the trad shoot aspect of traditional archery by some of our admin people. ....

[Chase N. Nocks]

Hi Bob,

Here is a post I started many moons ago about low profile vanes supposedly designed to be shot off the shelf.

http://www.ozbow.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13431

G'day all,

Wondering if anyone has any experience with some of the new low profile vanes designed to be shot off the shelf.

http://www.bohning.com/store/impulse-4-vanes.html

http://www.flexfletch.com/products/vanes/

http://www.flexfletch.com/wp-content/up ... Blu-SM.jpg

I know a few guys carry vaned arrows for wet weather etc. And have no problems if shooting cock feather in.

Interesting.

Cheers
Troy

[greybeard]

For those who use vanes,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cG_nvlNXqfg

Daryl.

[Dennis La Varenne]

Et tu Grahame.