What type of bow is this...?

[Guy Layton]

Hi guys,

What type of bow is this...?

Cheers Guy

image.jpg (114.39 KiB) Viewed 2814 times

[Bill]

Guy is that not Fred Bear using a static tip recurve assisting him in dragging the deer back to his base camp.

[toby]

Yes I think it is Fred bear & I think the bow is a Nels Grumley Deerslayer.
Nels was the original Bowyer for Fred. These are some of his bows (notice the takedowns)
Photo is courtesy of the guys at Tradgang I hope they don't mind.

[greybeard]

From stickbow.com

Models of Grumley bows:

Nels made 4 basic styles of bows:
o Field (straight limb)
o Hunter (steamed limb tips but without Brush Nocks)
o Bush Bow (having brush nocks carved into the ends of the limbs about 1-2 inches long)
o Deerslayer (with brush nocks 3-4 inches long).

The Grumley bow on the left is a Bush Bow, while the bow on the right is the Deerslayer model. Notice the different length of the brush nocks.

Nels Grumley Deerslayer.jpg (11.59 KiB) Viewed 2750 times

For more information;

http://www.stickbow.com/stickbow/Collector/beararchery/

Daryl.

[toby]

Is it really a recurve or a longbow with static tips? Or is a longbow with static tips really a recurve?
Interesting that they called them brush nocks & not static tips also. Interesting to note that they are from the late 30's I think & they were doing production take downs models then.

[greybeard]

It isn't a straight ended bow and it does not have recurved limbs but it does have static tips.

There may be a remote possibility that it might actually be a static tip bow.

Daryl.

[toby]

So what class would you shoot it in Daryl?

Any idea why he called them brush nocks?

[greybeard]

Hi Lyonel,

The bow in question is most likely an all wood bow so I would place it in the selfbow division.

If bows such as this one turned up at a shoot a decision would need to be reached by a consensus of opinion. I do believe that this situation is very unlikely to arise.

A Nels Grumley 1940's Bush Bow sold for $1200.00 in February 2014.

The short static tips are reminiscent of some of the bows of the Native Americans from North West California.

Short Tip North West California Bow.jpg (8.84 KiB) Viewed 2648 times

The brush nocks were probably the forerunner of brush buttons.

Brush Button.jpg (10.61 KiB) Viewed 2648 times

Daryl.

[Dennis La Varenne]

Toby and Darryl,

Those bows are laminated bows. In my 1948 Bear Archery catalogue, the Deerslayer is described as "short, wide and fast", and made from laminations of Osage on the face (belly), a Yew centre lam and a Hickory back with a backing layer of Fortisan and having "anti-snag" nocks and were "fully recurved". They were 5ft 2 inches long (62") and came in draw weights from 35 - 75lbs. It cost $60 in 1941.

The Bush Bow had "semi-recurved ends and anti-snag nocks". It was the same length as the Deerslayer, made of the same composite materials and came in the same range of draw weight range. I have one of these bows at home here in remarkable condition. Cost $50.

The Hunter was similar to the Deerslayer in construction with fully recurved ends, but was 66 inches long. Cost $55.

There were cheaper versions of both of these bows made with an Osage face and Lemonwood backing and centre lamination, but without the Fortisan backing. The cheaper versions cost were -
Deerslayer - $45;
Bush Bow - 35 and
Hunter - $40.

These prices were VERY expensive in 1941 from 2 to 3 weeks wages back then. These bows were not all made by Nels Grumley. He tended to work on special editions of any of these bows more as a custom job for a customer. The standard Deerslayer, Bush Bow and Hunter were certainly Grumley designs, but bows which he personally worked on had his signature on them and were always 'trapped' to the back as my Bush Bow and my straight ended Lemonwood Ranger both are. Sadly the signatures on both bows are gone with time and refinishing by past owners. To be genuine Grumley made bows, they must have either of the two versions of his signature on them. The first is a stamp which is pressed into the surface of the bow's belly, and after it broke in about 1938, he hand-wrote his signature on his bows. This is what they looked like -

Nels Grumley early.jpg (173.53 KiB) Viewed 2614 times

Nels Grumley late.jpg (190.76 KiB) Viewed 2614 times

Like my two possible Grumleys, unless they have either of these signatures, they cannot be verified as genuine.

Please note that the reference to the the Deerslayer and the Hunter having fully recurved ends refers to their static recurves. The modern working recurve with which we are all familiar these days had only recently been invented by Russ Wilcox and certainly had a long time to go before commercial bowyers put it into general production in the mid to late 1950s when it started to show up in the Archery magazines which I have from that era. The only kind of recurve back then were static recurves.

These bows were NEVER referred to as long bows because they were NOT long and they had recurved ends. The term 'long bow' in that era referred to the English round bellied bow with horn ends and only recently in those times had the term been used by Howard Hill for his design of bow which was longer than the common conventional flat bow of that era. I have 40 or 50 of these bows in my collection and they rarely exceed 66 inches and were NEVER referred to as long bows by their manufacturers or by archers of the period in any of the 200 or so magazines I have from that time.

Howard Hill was the first person to describe his long flatbow deisgn as a long bow. The term came into more common use during the 1950s to describe the long straight ended flat bow when it almost faded from existence. Even most of the commercial manufacturers stopped making them and apart from some private individuals, Howard Hill, through the one or two companies he licensed to build them, was one of the very few who continued with their manufacture during that period .

That is how and why the modern long flat bow is called a long bow in common with the traditional English bow. Technically if you like, the former is an American long bow and the latter is an English long bow. Howard is said in one of the books about him (Craig Ekin's I think) that he regarded his bow as an "American semi-long bow". In all the literature from that period that I have, especially his advertisements in contemporary archery magazines, Howard Hill refers to his design only as a long bow. The term "American semi-long bow" is never again used by Hill in reference to his bow design.

Toby,
I would advise caution about classifying any of these bows according to what people regard as long bows or recurves today. Because so many people do not understand the old traditional terms used in archery, they commonly misapply them according to modern fashion rather than correctly as they were devised. There aren't any new designs of bows today that did not exist in the pre-compound days. All many do is rename them according to current fashion rather than brush up on the history of their archery tradition.

We have a very comprehensive glossary of traditional archery terms attached to Ozbow and nobody bothers to read or understand them. The glossary was put together from as many authoritative sources as could be found (Elmer, Ascham, Shane, Stemmler and others) from before the compound bow era and the simplest and most concise of any variations was chosen for the glossary.

Guy,
The picture of Fred Bear dragging a deer behing him using his bow from which to hang the deer has him using one of his glass backed and faced Kodiak bows. These bows were called static recurves in the days when they were made. They were 64 inches nock to nock and had a shorter version - the Grizzly - which was 62 inches. I have one Kodiak and 5 Grizzlys in my collection.

[greybeard]

Those bows are laminated bows.

Dennis, I am not sure where stickbow.com sourced their information but they mentioned the following;

"The later Grumleys also can be found in laminated woods as well as self-wood models. Additionally you will find Grumleys backed with sinew, rawhide, and various types of wood. A characteristic of Grumley bows is the trapezoidal limb cross section."

http://www.stickbow.com/stickbow/Collector/beararchery/

Daryl.

[Dennis La Varenne]

Daryl,

Attached below are pages 3 and 4 from my Bear Archery 1948-1949 catalog showing the range of bows which were offered then. Nels Grumley was Bear's chief bowyer and apparently he did a lot of custom work for Bear. I wouldn't doubt for one minute that he made bows with all those combinations of woods and backings.

Trapezoiding the limbs was his hallmark certainly. I have a Bush Bow and a Ranger Lemonwood bow (I have 2 Rangers), both of which have trapezoidal limb sections. However, there is no Grumley stamp or his later written signature on either - so are they or aren't they????? Here are the 'official Grumley signatures. The stamp version is the earlier one. Again apparently, the stamp was broken at some stage and Grumley hand-wrote his moniker on any bows he made personally.

Nels Grumley early.jpg (173.53 KiB) Viewed 2578 times

Nels Grumley late.jpg (190.76 KiB) Viewed 2578 times

My Bush Bow is one of the cheaper models with an Osage belly, Lemonwood middle lam and a hickory back lam.

In the attached pages from the catalog, you will see that these bows, both static recurved and straight ended, are all composite bows with only the Ranger series being self Lemonwood. I did have 3 Rangers, but one broke at a fault at the upper limb dip where it had previously been pinned across a crack. Both of the standard Rangers and all the others I have seen have rectangular cross sections, but one of mine is definitely trapped and done by somebody who knew what he was doing. All my Rangers have been fibre backed, but I have seen pictures of early Rangers pre-1948 without. No signatures or stamps however.

Bear-Archery-Catalog-1948-1949---pp3 & 4.pdf

(500.17 KiB) Downloaded 61 times

[Slackshot]

Gotta be good to drag a nice size deer like that along Definitely FB

[Dennis La Varenne]

Daryl,

The later Grumleys also can be found in laminated woods as well as self-wood models. Additionally you will find Grumleys backed with sinew, rawhide, and various types of wood. A characteristic of Grumley bows is the trapezoidal limb cross section."

They may well be correct, but they provide no detailed references to their assertions. There seems to be a huge amount of knowledge out there in cyberland, but nobody says where they got it. I cannot claim any better myself and there is precious little in the old magazines I have from those times, albeit one article (which I will have to look up again) which said that Grumley stayed with Bear as his chief bowywe until 1948. He and Fred had a disagreement on how to produce bows. Fred wanted to go into large scale production and Grumley, being of the old school, did not believe that good bows could be made in any other way than one at a time. Apparently the disagreement was severe enough that Grumley tendered his resignation. Bear was a dyed in the wood businessman and knew his future lay in mass production. Grumley disagreed.

My only ???Grumley Bush Bow is laminated completely with limbs made from Hickory, Lemonwood and Osage, with a handle riser made from two pieces of Osage glued to the Osage belly lam. It has a very interesting construction. The lower limb is conventionally constructed with all three limb laminations passing under the handle riser, but the upper limb has the Osage belly lam going up the dip of the handle riser in the way that modern glass bows are made. Why it was done this way, I do not know.

BEAR ARCHERY BUSH BOW.pdf

(510.42 KiB) Downloaded 64 times

But getting back to the Grumley's you write about, my Bush Bow certainly has trapped limbs which was his hallmark whilst he worked for Bear up until 1948 I believe it was. Thereafter, I do not know. There is no reason to believe that he did not sinew some bow or try any other of the common backings of the time to try to improve performance. I can only comment on the very few I have seen.

I do have in my collection a very old Osage bow which has very slight recurved ends and sinewed back, is quite heavy, perhaps 65lbs or more because it is very stiff for me to bend and it has a takedown handle like that in the pictures of the catalog I posted above. I bought it as a very early Bear bow when he first went into commercial bowmaking, but there are no marks on which which indicated it was actually made by Bear and the take-down handle system was a patented invention which his ad says was not available other than on production bows and not sold separately to the public. It does not have trapped limbs however. A PDF of this bow is attached.

Sinew backed Osage take-down (possible early Bear).pdf

(437.51 KiB) Downloaded 70 times

I understand Grumley was with Bear from the very early days, but I do not know if he was trapping bow limbs at this early stage.

[greybeard]

There seems to be a huge amount of knowledge out there in cyberland, but nobody says where they got it. I cannot claim any better myself and there is precious little in the old magazines I have from those times, albeit one article (which I will have to look up again) which said that Grumley stayed with Bear as his chief bowywe until 1948.

"Beginning in 1938, Grumley bows bore the stamped mark of the maker, sometime in the early 1940’s, the stamp was broken and all bows after that date bore the written mark of their famous maker.

Why the different means of signing the bows? Well, when Nels first began making bows for Fred in 1938, he used a sort of branding iron to stamp into the wood his mark "Bear Products by Grumley". Then somewhere in the early 1940’s, the brand was dropped and broken and instead of buying a new one Nels simply began writing his name on the bows.

Note: Remember that the company was known as Bear Products until 1940, so the "Bear Products by Grumley" bows were obviously made before those marked "Bear Archery by Grumley".

Nels left Bear in 1948 when Fred made the decision to begin mass production of bows at the new factory in Grayling. Nels felt strongly that bows should be individually crafted, and not made by machine. So Nels left, even though Fred tried to convince him to stay with some handsome financial offers, and struck out on his own to make bows. However, his private venture into the bow making business lasted only two years before he took a job in an appliance manufacturer as a model maker. These "Grumley by Grumley" bows are marked with a simple stamped signature "Grumley" either on the limb or on the riser, and are very scarce and excellent collector items.

Not all Bear bows made in these early years were made by Nels. There were dozens of other bowyers who made Bear wooden bows, mostly the lower line lemonwood models such as the Ranger. These bows were simply marked "Bear Archery" in a written form. However, in late 1948 Bear began using what later became known as the small "Running Bear" decal, and thus some bows built beginning in 1948 may have this decal instead of the written brand."

Dennis, from stickbow;

"Much credit is due to the following people for the research which they have performed over the years, compiling boxes and boxes of information which allows people today to have a much easier time of researching the Bear Archery Company. Among those that I would like to single out for their help in this effort are Joe St. Charles of Northwest Archery in Seattle, WA, Matt Dickerson of Texas, Carl Ruddock of Marshall, MI, Floyd Eccleston of Mt. Pleasant, MI, and most significantly Al Reader of North Haledon, NJ."

The Fred Bear Museum appears to have disappeared [Wiki];

"The Fred Bear Museum originated in Grayling, Michigan, in 1967. Eventually the museum's collection represented the largest privately held collection of archery artifacts in the world. Bear sold controlling interest in his company in 1968, but continued on as president. In 1978, following a strike and continuing labor problems, the Bear Archery manufacturing operation was relocated to Gainesville, Florida. At first the museum remained behind in Grayling, but in 1985 it too was moved to Gainesville, where it found a home in the Bear Archery plant between Archer Road and Williston Road, just off of I-75. That museum closed in 2003, and the collections were sold to the Bass Pro Shops chain.[3]

Since then, the Fred Bear Museum has been displayed at the headquarters store of Bass Pro Shops in Springfield, Missouri. Exhibits include the story of Fred Bear and bowhunting history, life-size animal mounts, bowhunting artifacts, some of his trophies and memorabilia, and historical bows and arrows used or built by Fred Bear and his company.[4] The exhibit was temporarily closed due to the construction of an aquarium in the same building. It was scheduled to re-open in mid-2011.

Fred Bear was also the first president of Michigan's oldest archery club, Detroit Archers. A small collection of his memorabilia is located in the club house. The most prized piece is that of one of his polar bear skins, shot with an arrow. In 2006, Detroit Archers was broken into and the skin was stolen. The case is still open and no suspects or evidence has been found as to the skin's whereabouts.[citation needed]
References[edit]
1. Jump up ^ "Fred Bear". Hall of Fame Members. Bowhunters Hall of Fame. 2004. "Category A - Bowhunters showing Excellence in the Field of Bowhunting"
2. Jump up ^ "Fred Bear". Retrieved August 21, 2012.
3. Jump up ^ Brown, Robert H. (June 25, 2011). "The Fred Bear Museum". Florida's Lost Tourist Attractions.
4. Jump up ^ Burch, Michael (2006–2011). "Fred Bear Museum". OutdoorSite Library. Bass Pro Shops."

Daryl.

[Dennis La Varenne]

Daryl,

Thank you for all that information. A lot of it I have read somewhere, but not on Stickbow or Trad Gang which I rarely visit. I can't remember where I read it, but I did not know anything about the Bear Museum though. Now I have a few more references which I can look up for leads on some of my bows.

Best regards -