Recurve, Longbow, Deflex/ Reflex bow nomenclature.

[Fanto]

Gday,

the oxford dictionary defines a recurve as :

noun
Archery
a bow that curves forward at the ends, which straighten out under tension when the bow is drawn.

so where is the line in the sand between longbows and recurves?

is any bow with deflex and reflex a recurve?

discuss...

[Chase N. Nocks]

Hey Fanto,

Now I have been basically been meaning to ask for a while now. So might as well follow with your topic.

What exactly IS a Longbow, what is Not a Longbow.

On whose authority?

What are the conflicting authorities and definitions?

Chronological order of those authorized definitions? (not suggesting that oldest is correct or most accurate)

Same for Recurve I guess.

And what are the cut off points between the two?

Cheers
Troy

[bigbob]

I am not sure who would be a definitive authority on the definition of a longbow, but choose to work within the scope of that which is decided by the rules of the organisation i belong to, which happens to be ABA. Their interpretation of a longbow is one in which the string on a strung bow touches nothing else of the limb except at the nock groove.It is further defined that if a string were stretched along the back of the limbs and any gap at all could be seen then it would be allocated as a modern longbow. I know these interpretations will draw the ire of some but at least it has some guide lines I can work within rather than a variety of different opinions and even prejudice. This subject has been hotly debated for yonks and am sure that it will ignite again.What is one man's drink is another's poison.

[GrahameA]

Hello Troy

.... Don't know if I am losing the plot ...

.... On whose authority? ....

A) You lost the plot millenia ago,

B) I remember going down this road several times over the years.

http://www.ozbow.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.p ... bow#p54848

The term "longe bowe" first appears in the Paston letters in 1449.

Edward IV' (1465) - "of his own length and one fistmele at the least between the nyckes".

That defines the length of an English Longbow - or at least what it was once.

And now having been down this road in the past and having learnt from the futility of such discussions..........

[Chase N. Nocks]

Thanks Grahame, very likely true.

Trying to find some of the varied authoritative references out there tonight and still to send some replies etc. Might get some time tomorrow (apologies)

This at least was interesting.

http://www.archery.org/UserFiles/Docume ... ongbow.pdf.

Yes it has been a well trodden path I guess. But still grey areas exist.

Trying to genuinely find why the Zeta and Triple Crown for example are not longbows. For instance

IFAA Longbow
Longbow - (L.B.)
a. A bow of any material, which can be taken down in two parts and put together again into a one piece bow within the handle (only shared once in the handle), which when strung displays one continued unidirectional curve, which is measured as follows:
When the strung bow is placed with the bowstring in a vertical position, the angle as measured between the tangent of any point on the limb and an imaginary horizontal line must always decrease as this point is moved further away from the bow grip.
Where there is any doubt as to the continuing curve of the limb then a string- line laid from the end of the riser fade out to the commencement of the tip overlays (or if there are no overlays then the point at which the bow string is held in the nock groove) on the back of the strung bow shall show no gaps between the string line and the bow limb.
b. The tip reinforcing may not exceed 20mm in height, measured from the surface of the back of the bow limb and may not exceed 50mm in length, measured from the centre of the string groove towards the bow grip.
c. The bow may contain a window and an arrow shelf. The side of the window shall be slanted over the full length of the window and rounded off at the point where the window intersects with the top bow limb. The window cut may not exceed the centre of the bow.
d. The belly, bow grip, the window and the arrow shelf shall be free of any marks or blemishes that may be used as sighting aids.
e. Any additions to the bow for the purpose of stabilisation, levelling, draw-weight reduction, sighting and/or draw checking are not permitted
f. Only one nocking point shall be allowed on the string, which may be marked by either one or two nocking point locators. If resting nocks are used -such as ball nocks -only one locator may be used.
g. String silencers no closer than 30 cm above or below the nocking point are allowed.
h. Arrows shall be of wood, fletched with natural feather, and must be of the same fletch and pile, without regard for colour. The arrows must be free of any marks or blemishes that can be used as sighting aids and shall not vary in length by more than 25mm at the start of the competition. Nocks may be of any material and any weight of pile may be used.
i. The bow must be shot with the "Mediterranean" loose. In cases of physical deformity or handicap special dispensation shall be made.
j. Entries that do not comply with the above rules shall be classified in the recurve bowhunter style or in the shooting style the equipment is allowed and possible to use.

[Chase N. Nocks]

ABA Longbow
3. Traditional Longbow Division (short name “TLB”) The definition of a TLB shall be:-
a) A one piece straight ended bow of any material, whether glued up of one or more laminations of materials, which when strung displays one continued unidirectional curve from the riser ends to the tips, which is measured as follows: When the strung bow is placed in a vertical position the angle as measured between the tangent of any point on the limb and an imaginary horizontal line must always decrease as this point is moved further away from the bow grip or riser ends. If there are any doubts about the curve being continuous and unidirectional then a string line stretched on the back of the bow from the riser ends to the commencement of the limb tip overlays will not show any gaps under it. If there are any gaps then the bow will fall into the MLB or Recurve Division.
b) The tip reinforcing may not exceed 25 mm in height, measured from the surface of the back of the bow limb, and may not exceed 50 mm in length , measured from the centre of the string groove towards the bow centre.
c) The bow may contain a window and an arrow shelf. The side of the window shall be curved over the full length of the window and rounded off at the point where the window intersects with the top of the riser or top bow limb. The window must not be cut past centre shot. The window and arrow shelf may be padded with leather or other material.
d) The arrows, belly, bow grip, bow window, string and arrow shelf shall be free of any marks or blemishes that may be used as sighting aids.
e) Any additions to the bow for the purpose of stabilization, levelling, sighting or draw checking are not permitted, and the inclusion of any of these items may cause the bow to be assessed as falling within the MLB or Recurve Division.
f) Only one knocking point shall be allowed on the string, which may be by one or two nock locators; if two nock locators are used the arrow must be nocked between them.
Arrows shall be wooden shafted. Fletched with feathers, and must be of the same length fletch and pile, with due allowance for wear and tear. The arrow must be free of any marks or blemishes that can be used as sighting aids. If the bow weighs over 50 pounds of draw weight (at the archers draw length ) then the arrows shall carry at least 12 inches of fletching and have a point of at least 125 grains weight.
h) The bow must be shot with the “ Mediterranean ‘’ loose. In the case of physical deformity or handicap special dispensation shall be allowed.
i) One consistent anchor point shall be used and face walking is not permitted.

Main difference I can see is that the IFAA allow 2 piece takedown ABA does not.

[Chase N. Nocks]

I am not sure who would be a definitive authority on the definition of a longbow, but choose to work within the scope of that which is decided by the rules of the organisation i belong to, which happens to be ABA. Their interpretation of a longbow is one in which the string on a strung bow touches nothing else of the limb except at the nock groove.It is further defined that if a string were stretched along the back of the limbs and any gap at all could be seen then it would be allocated as a modern longbow. I know these interpretations will draw the ire of some but at least it has some guide lines I can work within rather than a variety of different opinions and even prejudice. This subject has been hotly debated for yonks and am sure that it will ignite again.What is one man's drink is another's poison.

That is part of the point Bob. ABA rules suit and apply to you because you shoot or compete under that system. But there is no definitive static, inflexible or universally agreed definition from what I can see. This is not about trying to pass off a 54 inch Super Shrew with obvious flat spots in the strung "D" shape of the bow. I posted some pictures recently of Zeta and Triple Fox. Both of which have the qualifying "D" shape when strung and from what I can understand, possibly erroneously, the other qualities to consider them longbows, as declared by IFAA and ABA just to name two.

Cheers
Troy

[greybeard]

IFAA Longbow
Longbow - (L.B.)
a. A bow of any material, which can be taken down in two parts and put together again into a one piece bow within the handle

ABA Longbow
3. Traditional Longbow Division (short name “TLB”) The definition of a TLB shall be:-
a) A one piece straight ended bow of any material, whether glued up of one or more laminations of materials,
Main difference I can see is that the IFAA allow 2 piece takedown ABA does not.

The 2011 IFAA Rules;
7. Longbow - (L.B.)
a. A one piece straight ended bow of any material,

Troy, one has to wonder why IFAA changed their definition, the only reasons that I can think of are; dwindling number of competitors in the "straight ended" longbow division or a commercial influence to allow semi recurves into longbow.

I posted some pictures recently of Zeta and Triple Fox. Both of which have the qualifying "D" shape when strung and from what I can understand, possibly erroneously, the other qualities to consider them longbows, as declared by IFAA and ABA just to name two.

Troy, I believe "D" refers to full compass bows i.e. bows that bend through the grip area.

Daryl.

[GrahameA]

Hi Troy.

..... Trying to find some of the varied authoritative references out there tonight .....

So tell me, when did this desire to follow in the path of de Cervantes afflict you.

The first of many stumbling block/Brick Walls you are about to encounter is..... "what is meant by the word 'longbow'. That may sound like a simple question however, like most simple questions it does not have a simple answer. The answer is amazingly complex.

If you look/study/peruse the Paston reference prior to that time 'bows' were just referred to as 'bows'. A quick sideways jump here to the Batlte of Maldon and the line of interest is Bows were busy, shield felt point, no reference to 'longbows' they were just bows. And back to the letter, she asked for 'longbows' to differentiate them from 'crossbows'.

The next question that arises being were they called 'longbows' because they were long - of greater length - or because they were held lengthwise as compared to crossbows which had the bow part running crossways? And that is just the easy stuff.

At about this point in time you should be wondering what the hell have you started .... well I would be. Be kind to yourself and shout yourself another book. 'The Crooked Stick' by Hugh Soar from Amazon.

Small interlude for your brain - 'But for the crooked stick and the grey goose wing'

Back to the subject. Chaucer just called them bows and in the introduction to Soars book he states - Cross section may be ".... elliptical, triangular, or rectangular ....". Try saying that out aloud and watch the wrath of the technophiles .... or should that be the lexicographers descend upon your shoulders. (Perhaps you remember the words of Bayern the Great in 'The Black Rose' about the archer's bow being broken over his head ...... and the actual meaning of the words .... but I diverge.)

Now if you look at "A Lytell Geste ...." the words are "..... purveyed him an hondred bowes ...." note that the "Geste..." is dated around 13C and if you consider Ascham he refers to ".... good shotinge bowe....".

So there you have a start on your quest ..... I suggest you gather some Hobbits and Dwarves as you will surely need them as you journey down the path of futile endeavour ....... and say, "Hello" to Miguel as you pass.

[Fanto]

Gents,

is there a consensus on what the deflex/reflex limbed , 52-64" flat bows with shelves cut to or near centre, shall be called on Ozbow? simply because its too much work to type out that whole sentence every time.

Can i suggest perhaps deflex/reflex (D/R) flatbow is a good option, because

1) it wont cause confusion for beginners who see bows like Zeta, Toelke whip, Big Jim Buffalo constantly and universally referred to as "longbow". if we call these bows recurves it is just too confusing in my opinion.

2) it is factually correct. they have deflexed and reflexed limbs. they are flat. I can see how there are greivances calling these things longbows. a longbow is, by definition, Long. (66" up) these bows in question, are a foot or more shorter.

[bigbob]

I would agree with your suggestion Fanto, it at least categorizes such bows. As Grahame has postulated, the whole path is beset with endless variations, and history suggests that indeed most were simply called bows. The reflexed type bow has been around for centuries and generally feel under the mantle of 'bow'. Why IFAA has changed its definition is indeed another matter to ponder.

[Goatchaser]

Nomenclature will vary from club to club, I don't see the issue with calling a flat laid bow a longbow, a R/D (on this site) or more commonly known as a D/R hybrid longbow just that, and a recurve a recurve, we all know what is being referred to , as for the club/ association rules all having different views and standards and requirements is a bit of a joke really . As someone who is not a member of a club, as a lot of bow hunters around aren't, I think the general terminology used by shops that sell the gear is substantial and relates to the wider bow community rather than just one or two clubs views, when joining a club it would be up to the individual to comply with the club or organisations ruling etc. But for general public what the stores describe them as seems to cause way less confusion than when discussed on this site.
Cheers Sean.

[longbowinfected]

The horse has bolted. We do not get to decide. Look at all the long bows our Chinese friends are selling on Flea bay. Being accurate in descriptions maintains previous folks views on names. After thousands buy Chinese longbows, whatever we say now will be forgotten because of the weight of numbers who have a different take on it.

I can take my D/R semi recurve and shoot in longbow division in a paddock, in my back yard, at AA, at HVTA and Wisemans. I do not have the resources to travel too far these days and I cannot use my bow at other places in longbow or whatever they call it so I do not go there. Their loss not mine. Restrictive asinine rules restrict numbers, that is silly. It is even sillier that there are so many associations as mostly it weas all about politics and not about throwing arrows.

I see very little evidence of rules bitch slapping at the two trad shoots I go to.

Kevin

[Goatchaser]

It's a bit like you can't drive a modified vehicle from NSW in Queensland, we all know how stupid it sounds when road rules and regs vary from state to state, same thing here, which is a reason for not wanting to join a club, I feel the politics would take away from the "fun" that I have with my bows.

[greybeard]

Perhaps, if the manufacturers and resellers made the effort to use the correct terminology the problem would not exist.

Daryl.

[Goatchaser]

same could be said for the clubs/ organisations though, perhaps if they all used the same standards and set of rules the confusion and disagreements would be less.

[Fanto]

Perhaps, if the manufacturers and resellers made the effort to use the correct terminology the problem would not exist.

Daryl.

Daryl,

do you agree with D/R flatbow being used on this forum?

Jeff? Grahame?

lets put this to bed shall we

[Chase N. Nocks]

Hey Fanto,

I have not yet found length requirements yet and will post them when I do.

64 inch is the minimum for IFAA if I recall correctly, but I could be wrong.

BlackBrook Zeta and Sigma, and Fox Triple Crown all come in 64 inches but, anecdotally, from what I have seen commented on in various forums 66 inch seems to be the most popular length. (64,66,68 is at least offered in all three models) all have the required "D" shape with no flat spots.

Even though the Big Jim Buffalo comes in length options that would be OK the flat/recurved limbs of the strung bow cuts it from the group except for I believe FITA longbow.

FITA it seems also allows the arrow shelf to be also cut past centre.

Cheers
Troy

[Gringa Bows]

How are the newbies going to learn the correct terminology for the different types of bows if we are calling the different types of bows som,ething theyre not because its easier

[greybeard]

same could be said for the clubs/ organisations though, perhaps if they all used the same standards and set of rules the confusion and disagreements would be less.

Sean, I agree it would make life easier.

BlackBrook Zeta and Sigma, and Fox Triple Crown all have the required "D" shape with no flat spots.

Troy, I think you will find that the overbuilt risers have the central part of the "D" shaped into the riser.

Perhaps, if the manufacturers and resellers made the effort to use the correct terminology the problem would not exist.

Daryl.

Daryl,

do you agree with D/R flatbow being used on this forum?

Jeff? Grahame?

lets put this to bed shall we

Fanto, your question is confusing. If it is flat laid it is a flatbow, there could be a width issue which may preclude it from being classed as a longbow
[depending which definition you use] if you are referring to its cross section as being flat i.e. rectangular it could have a D/R limb profile.

I do not believe you can have a D/R flatbow.

How are the newbies going to learn the correct terminology for the different types of bows if we are calling the different types of bows som,ething theyre not because its easier

Perhaps we should all make the effort to use the correct terminology so the newbies can learn.

Daryl.

[Chase N. Nocks]

ABA Longbow
3. Traditional Longbow Division (short name “TLB”) The definition of a TLB shall be:-
a) A one piece straight ended bow of any material, whether glued up of one or more laminations of materials,
Main difference I can see is that the IFAA allow 2 piece takedown ABA does not.

The 2011 IFAA Rules;
7. Longbow - (L.B.)
a. A one piece straight ended bow of any material,

Troy, one has to wonder why IFAA changed their definition, the only reasons that I can think of are; dwindling number of competitors in the "straight ended" longbow division or a commercial influence to allow semi recurves into longbow.[/quote]

Yes Darryl, this was one of the few (only??) discrepancy I could find between the two codes. However there are any number of two piece straight laid bows as well. Personally AND technically I can't see an issue with two piece bows as there is no performance gain from such a construction option being applied to the bow, merely a convenience in transportation. Not sure why ABA persist with this distinction as it is completely separate from shooting qualities.

I posted some pictures recently of Zeta and Triple Fox. Both of which have the qualifying "D" shape when strung and from what I can understand, possibly erroneously, the other qualities to consider them longbows, as declared by IFAA and ABA just to name two.

Troy, I believe "D" refers to full compass bows i.e. bows that bend through the grip area.

Daryl.

I thought this applied from basically the fade outs to the nocks - as an always decreasing distance between limbs and string.

The "D" shape and string ONLY touching through the string nocks seems to be two of the most common and crucial points amongst the different groups.

Based on that last part though, do Hill style bows qualify?

Cheers
Troy

[Chase N. Nocks]

G'day Grahame,

You are having too much fun and I will respond to you properly as soon as a I can.

Promise.

Cheers
Troy

[Chase N. Nocks]

Hey Fellas,

Certainly there has been things called what they are not. I agree. I have done it. Sometimes through lack of knowledge, sometimes to stir.

I try to make it clear which of the two are being applied.

Maybe if it can be resolved or refined it can be placed as a sticky or header topic so when newbies AND oldies can be pointed in the correct direction.

Part of the problem is that someone can say "That is not a longbow" about bows that do actually qualify as longbows with various archery bodies.

Now that IS confusing especially if someone then makes a less desirable purchase based on that and later finds out that the Zeta that they initially much preferred could have been used in the longbow events that they wanted to shoot in.

So some references are needed.
for e.g. regardless of someone opinion of what is a longbow regardless of how correct or well founded. The BlackBrook Zeta is a longbow as far as IFAA and ABA is concerned.

How isn't something a longbow? How is that applied? What are the references? etc etc

Cheers
Troy

[Chase N. Nocks]

From Archery Australia.

Longbow Equipment

Archery Australia has specific rules for Longbow which generally follow World Archery Rules (check HERE for the Australian Rules).

In competition in Australia:

Wood and Aluminium arrows are permitted.

Carbon and Carbom/Aluminimun arrows are NOT permitted.

The bow must correspond to the traditional understanding of a longbow, which means that, when strung, the string may not touch any other part of the bow except for the string nocks.

The bow may be made from any type of material or combination of material.

The shape of the grip and the limbs are not restricted.

Centershot is permitted.

Two and three piece bows are permitted but takedown bows using ILF (International Limb Fitting) limbs are NOT permitted.
BOW LENGTH

For juniors and women the bow shall not be less than 150 cm (58") in length.

For men the bow shall not be less than 160 cm (63") in length.

The length of the bow is measured between string nocks with the bow unstrung.
BOWSTRINGS

Bowstrings may be made of any material.
ARROW REST

If the bow has an arrow shelf that shelf may be used as an arrow rest, it may be covered with any type of soft material. Standard type arrow rests used on recurve and compound bows are NOT permitted.
ARROWS

Aluminium or wooden arrows arrows are permitted.

There is no weight or shape restriction for the point, although hunting points are NOT permitted.

Fletching shall consist of natural feathers only.
THE BOW

No weights or stabilisers are permitted.

No sight or marks on the bow that help aiming are allowed. (No marks or blemishes or laminations that can be used that help with aiming are permitted.)

No draw-check device is permitted.

Face or string walking is not permitted.

A ground marker is not permitted.

As Longbow is shot without sights, no notes or writen information to assist with aiming or sight references are permitted.
FINGER POSITION

Arrows may be shot using either the Mediterranean release (one finger above and two fingers below the arrow) or three fingers below the arrow (within 2 mm).

In addition to the above requirements, all other Barebow recurve rules will apply

NOTE - If you wish to claim World Archery awards (Arrowhead) shooting a longbow, this may only be achieved if you have entered a tournament and competing in the Barebow Recurve division (i.e. generally the blue pegs).

World Archery does not recognise Arrowhead claims for the Longbow division even when shooting equipment that complies with World Archery rules.

These rules allow 3 piece take downs but not in ILF format. A minimum length is specified. Centershot allowed. Does not mention "D" shape and based on the BlackBrook site, flat or slight reflex is allowed.

Cheers
Troy

[Chase N. Nocks]

Gents,

is there a consensus on what the deflex/reflex limbed , 52-64" flat bows with shelves cut to or near centre, shall be called on Ozbow? simply because its too much work to type out that whole sentence every time.

Can i suggest perhaps deflex/reflex (D/R) flatbow is a good option, because

1) it wont cause confusion for beginners who see bows like Zeta, Toelke whip, Big Jim Buffalo constantly and universally referred to as "longbow". if we call these bows recurves it is just too confusing in my opinion.

2) it is factually correct. they have deflexed and reflexed limbs. they are flat. I can see how there are greivances calling these things longbows. a longbow is, by definition, Long. (66" up) these bows in question, are a foot or more shorter.

Fanto,

Deflex/Reflex flatbows are just that. However under certain archery bodies where length, arrow shelf, string contact and strung bow shape adhere they are ALSO considered longbows.

So to my thinking an archer referring to his Fox Triple Crown as a longbow is not actually a false statement unless ELBs ARE the only real longbow.

And I might add that I have encountered purist who believe just that and have stated just that on various archery forums.

[longbow steve]

same could be said for the clubs/ organisations though, perhaps if they all used the same standards and set of rules the confusion and disagreements would be less.

Sean, I agree it would make life easier.

BlackBrook Zeta and Sigma, and Fox Triple Crown all have the required "D" shape with no flat spots.

Troy, I think you will find that the overbuilt risers have the central part of the "D" shaped into the riser.

Perhaps, if the manufacturers and resellers made the effort to use the correct terminology the problem would not exist.

Daryl.

do you agree with D/R flatbow being used on this forum?

Jeff? Grahame?

lets put this to bed shall we

Fanto, your question is confusing. If it is flat laid it is a flatbow, there could be a width issue which may preclude it from being classed as a longbow
[depending which definition you use] if you are referring to its cross section as being flat i.e. rectangular it could have a D/R limb profile.

I do not believe you can have a D/R flatbow.

How are the newbies going to learn the correct terminology for the different types of bows if we are calling the different types of bows som,ething theyre not because its easier

Perhaps we should all make the effort to use the correct terminology so the newbies can learn.

Daryl.

Hi Daryl, using that logic a flatbow that is reflexed is no longer a flat bow? Or if it has stringfollow and is deflexed it also is no longer a flatbow? Also a Howard hill bow that is reflexed is not a flatbow? I believe flatbow refers to the limb cross section as opposed to a crowned belly longbow does it not? Steve

[longbow steve]

LONGBOW: 1. Traditional type of English bow usually made from a single stave of wood, whose limb configuration is almost at thick as it is wide, and at least as long as its user. Distinguished by having pieces of cattle horn fixed to the limb tips into which string nocks were carved. 2. Generally any modern straight limbed bow of five feet or over with the sight window (if any) not cut to centre shot.
This is the definition of a longbow from the sites own glossary of terms.

DEFLEX-REFLEX: A bow design where the unbraced limbs curve toward the belly of the bow then reverse direction about mid-limb, reflexing away from the shooter. Reflexing replaces the braced limb stress lost by deflexing.

It has become a very common bow design in recent times with much hype surrounding its supposedly superior performance to other tradbow designs, but is really quite old. It became common in the 1950s and 1960s, and was quite definitely and specifically known as the semi-recurve design. It was never regarded as a longbow, and the advertising of those times made a point of distinguishing this design from the 'old-fashioned' straight-ended longbow.

Later in the 1960s, it was largely superseded by the clearly superior full recurved bows and faded from common use until recently when it has regained some popularity and novelty.

Despite some beneficial handling characteristics, shoot-testing of this design has not demonstrated any clearly provable superior performance characteristics over other traditional bow designs despite many claims to the contrary.

[greybeard]

However there are any number of two piece straight laid bows as well. Personally AND technically I can't see an issue with two piece bows as there is no performance gain from such a construction option being applied to the bow, merely a convenience in transportation. Not sure why ABA persist with this distinction as it is completely separate from shooting qualities.

Troy, you can shoot them in the Historical Division as sleeve and socket bows were documented in 1859 by Horace Ford as 'carriage bows'. Just make a self longbow cut it in half and add the sleeve and socket.

I thought this applied from basically the fade outs to the nocks - as an always decreasing distance between limbs and string.

The "D" shape and string ONLY touching through the string nocks seems to be two of the most common and crucial points amongst the different groups.

Based on that last part though, do Hill style bows qualify?

Please accept my apology I went off on the tangent of thinking selfbows and not laminated glass bows.

do you agree with D/R flatbow being used on this forum?

Fanto, your question is confusing. If it is flat laid it is a flatbow, there could be a width issue which may preclude it from being classed as a longbow
[depending which definition you use] if you are referring to its cross section as being flat i.e. rectangular it could have a D/R limb profile.

I do not believe you can have a D/R flatbow.

Hi Daryl, using that logic a flatbow that is reflexed is no longer a flat bow? Or if it has stringfollow and is deflexed it also is no longer a flatbow? Also a Howard hill bow that is reflexed is not a flatbow? I believe flatbow refers to the limb cross section as opposed to a crowned belly longbow does it not? Steve

Steve, I was making the distinction between a 'flat laid rectangular cross section bow' which as the wording suggests is laid up on a dead straight form and the limb at its widest point being no wider than the handle section can be classed as a longbow.
If the limbs either D/R, reflexed etc are wider than the handle section they are referred to as flatbows.

Remember the above is only as good as to whose determinations you believe in or find plausible.

Daryl.

[Fanto]

Right

As can be clearly seen , no person has the definitive answer so if there is no agreement can you all please stop derailing threads about bows with semantics.

Some people are happy to argue about nomenclature all day, like me, so lets do that on these threads instead.

[GrahameA]

Hi Troy.

Are you getting some idea of the complexity of the problem/issues yet. It is a Gordian knot of immense proportion and it has been formed of strong steel ....... or perhaps 'Mithril'.

So assuming you develop some god-like powers and manage to get the vast majority of people to agree to something the problem that does not end there.

Immediately you get agreement there will be someone who wants to change things to suit them. So then decisions have to be made to make the change or not. If you make a change chances are that will not be enough and they will want other changes and within a short period of time what you had will have no resemblance to where you have arrived.

It like design by a committee ........

So tell me are you enjoying you quest and the jousting at windmills so far? How many have you defeated?

A small part of the issue is the lack of preciseness of spoken english and similarly is the lack of precision of users. What do people really mean when they say something, what do the hear, etc.

For 60 seconds consider 'efficiency' and 'effectiveness'. Numerous times every day you will hear/read people confusing the meaning of those two words .... thus people become confused as what people really mean when they say something ................... and that is before you start defining what terms mean.

So are you really sure the thing you call a 'longbow' is really a longbow or is it a Longbow or just a long bow?

Enjoy your trip and drop me some postcards as you head towards, or is that away, from Madrid.

p.s. The name is derived from the Arab word for wilderness ...... enjoy the wandering.