Now I know people dont like crossbows

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looseplucker
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Now I know people dont like crossbows

#1 Post by looseplucker » Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:35 pm

(but I do and to heck with your opinions)

BUT:

This is damn clever: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSjCY2kG ... re=related

There is a Popular Mechanics buildalong for a semi-auto crossbow from the 60s too - but this bloke has done a good job for mine.

I guess he has a choice - make a doover, or not shoot.
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WOLF
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Re: Now I know people dont like crossbows

#2 Post by WOLF » Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:57 pm

Now thats different :smile:
I Love the look of cross bows
Would love to get a medieval type
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longbowinfected
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Re: Now I know people dont like crossbows

#3 Post by longbowinfected » Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:02 pm

I like crossbows. They are no different to a compound or trad bow.......just another tool for flinging arrows.
Many crossbowers cannot shoot other types of bows for health reasons. I do not see why anyone should discriminate against them.

A member of our club has one arm and is in a wheelchair.....she comes second in the world.She scored four consecutive perfect 300/300 at the National Indoors [AA] a couple of years ago.

our club is one of the few in NSW that supports crossbow use.

Kevin
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Re: Now I know people dont like crossbows

#4 Post by Chase N. Nocks » Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:37 pm

Hey LP,

Interesting Post.

I love crossbows and have always been completely mystified by the negativity of archers to crossbows. Mostly from ignorance in IMO. Then again I love pretty much anything that shoots.

I remember comments about it being unsafe to have them at field archery clubs which to me seemed like just a **** weak bunch of utter nonsense for the standard crossbow. The automatic type in the youtube clip would probably require an extra set of rules applied.

Good to see there are some progressive clubs out there allowing them to be shot on field courses. Would certainly add to the variety on the course. I'd like to see it and use one at field archery clubs as well as hunting.

Cheers
Troy
I am an Archer. I am not a traditional archer, bowhunter, compound shooter or target archer.....I am an Archer
"Shooting the Stickbow"

....enforced by the "whistling grey-goose wing."
"The Witchery of Archery"

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looseplucker
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Re: Now I know people dont like crossbows

#5 Post by looseplucker » Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:54 pm

I'll tell you a tale. I had in my possession a certain implement. It was a lot shorter than most of its type. Practically a toy, no shoulder stock, you know, and these things can be bought over the counter in such nanny state countries as the UK and that is all I'm saying because the local authorities take a poor view of such harmless contraptions.

Now. These are and were banned, but bring it in tight. Anyhow, I had a politician at my place a few years back becuase I knew his missus. It was a social function. Anyhow, said pollie had a couple of relatives who were also there and into archery. Thusly I invited him and his rellos down to the man-cave to look at my kit. Anyhow, said politician espies the particular device and is intrigued. "Would you like a go?" asks I. "Yes I would!" says your man, behaving like a 10 year old who has just graduated from slug gun to .22.

So we go out the back, away from the prying eyes of womenfolk and wowsers and he proceeds to whang a few thangs into the target with said implement.

He has a ball, OK. So do his boys. We make safe and he hands it back. A moment of doubt crosses his face:

"Arent those......illegal?" he asks.

"Well you should know Digger, you banned 'em"

"I banned these" says your man.

"Yep. Did it make you feel any safer?"

And that is all I'm sayin'
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Re: Now I know people dont like crossbows

#6 Post by wishsong » Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:58 pm

Cool story .....

I realy like crossbows and never understood the negativity towards them ... particularly from other archers . My mate had a really well set up one .. uber quiet . With my competition wheelie rig I'd shoot circles around him all day long ...
it was cool , just not that hunting friendly , nor accurate .
Mind you that may have just been us .

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looseplucker
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Re: Now I know people dont like crossbows

#7 Post by looseplucker » Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:50 pm

[quote="wishsong"]Cool story .....

quote]

True story Dude.

Anyhow, all long ago. I like crossbows and you can get the plans to build them on the interweb. Easy.
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Re: Now I know people dont like crossbows

#8 Post by Bill » Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:25 pm

:surprised: and when the battery goes flat :?:

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Re: Now I know people dont like crossbows

#9 Post by hazard » Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:09 pm

looseplucker wrote:(but I do and to heck with your opinions)

BUT:

This is damn clever: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSjCY2kG ... re=related

There is a Popular Mechanics buildalong for a semi-auto crossbow from the 60s too - but this bloke has done a good job for mine.

I guess he has a choice - make a doover, or not shoot.
Really cool, but that guy needs to improve his aim because he looks like he needs a good feed. :lol:

Hazard
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Re: Now I know people dont like crossbows

#10 Post by perry » Sat Aug 25, 2012 7:33 pm

I used to make, shoot targets and hunt with Crossbows. I came up with my own design Stock which was based on the Medivel style but with a replica of a Chinese Lock fitted, 3 parts, a trigger, a rotating nut and a pivot pin. Very simple. I also had an authentic 14th century replica Rotating Nut / lever type trigger mechanism on one of my Crossbows. I made my own sights and Prods

I handed the Stocks in for destruction a few years ago because there was no where I could practice with them and I was sick of paying out Licence Fee's for Safe Queens. I could not work on them or continue to make them because my work shop was not an approved Armoury. In Queensland the stock is restricted but all other parts are not. I still have 2 commercially made Prods, 125# Steel and 150# Fibreglass.

Suppose I could have continued to keep them, just bite the Bullet and keep paying for a Catorgory M licence and membership of an approved organisation such as a Hunting Club / Crossbow Australia etc but I am already up for memberships for Bows and licences / memberships etc for my Firearms and at the time just could not reconsile with myself the BS restrictions, unnecessary expence and the way a part of my Archery, something that gave me great pleasure was taken away by a poor public image with it's origins back in 1139 when a Pope declared them Instuments of the Devil and Ignornce from fellow Archers and the Authorities.

regards Jacko
"To my deep morticication my father once said to me, 'You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family.' "

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Fanto
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Re: Now I know people dont like crossbows

#11 Post by Fanto » Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:41 pm

crossbows are legal in SA and they are quite cheap, I think if I was going to buy a compound bow it would be a compound crossbow.

as for the semi auto crossbow, the medieval crossbow cocking device was simpler, lighter and enables archers to utilise very heavy bows, 200lb, 300lb and up I believe
"So long as the new moon returns in heaven a bent, beautiful bow, so long will the fascination of archery keep hold in the hearts of men" The Witchery of Archery, Maurice Thompson

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Re: Now I know people dont like crossbows

#12 Post by Hamish » Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:41 am

Pretty cool. Like Kevin said this one could have good applications for a person with an injury or disability.
It does look pretty heavy, and unwieldy, so not too easy to shoot unless sitting and using a rest, or kneeling. Prod looks not very powerful(good enough for target or a bit of fun), and recocking is no faster than manual, so there isn't really much danger of it being a practical weapon(not that I'd want to get shot with it).
Hamish.

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Re: Now I know people dont like crossbows

#13 Post by greybeard » Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:16 pm

When I was in New Zealand about five years ago you could purchace a pistol crossbow at the news agency.

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Re: Now I know people dont like crossbows

#14 Post by GrahameA » Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:37 am

Morning All.

As I have said before:

1097, Pope Urban II proclaimed that Crossbows were not to be used against Christians,
1139, Pope Innocent II convened a Lateran Council which declared the penalty of anathema for use of such agaimst Christians (1)
1199, Richard Coeur de Lion got himself killed by a bolt.

Thus Crossbows are inherently "evil". You have almost 1000 years of dogma to argue against.

(1) Note:
Translations vary.
Archers get a mention as well!!
CANON 29

Summary. Slingers and archers directing their art against Christians, are anathematized.

Text. We forbid under penalty of anathema that that deadly and God-detested art of stingers and archers be in the future exercised against Christians and Catholics.

Comment. The reference seems to be to a sort of tournament, the nature of which was the shooting of arrows and other projectiles on a wager. The practice had already been condemned by Urban II in canon 7 of the Lateran Synod of 1097, no doubt because of the it involved. [[41]]
Ref http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran2.asp
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Re: Now I know people dont like crossbows

#15 Post by Chase N. Nocks » Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:19 am

perry wrote: a poor public image with it's origins back in 1139 when a Pope declared them Instuments of the Devil and Ignornce from fellow Archers and the Authorities.

regards Jacko
and yesterday marks 666 years since the Battle of Crecy where the French were demolished by Edward the "Black" Prince of Wales.

Cheers
Troy
Last edited by Chase N. Nocks on Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I am an Archer. I am not a traditional archer, bowhunter, compound shooter or target archer.....I am an Archer
"Shooting the Stickbow"

....enforced by the "whistling grey-goose wing."
"The Witchery of Archery"

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Re: Now I know people dont like crossbows

#16 Post by GrahameA » Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:47 am

Hi Troy.
Chase N. Nocks wrote:and yesterday marks 666 years since the Battle of Crecy where the French were demolished by Edward the "Black" Prince of Wales.
Seed of Doubt.
Is that date Julian or Gregorian??? Are you sure???
Grahame.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.

"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.

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Re: Now I know people dont like crossbows

#17 Post by Roadie » Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:47 pm

Afternoon Grahame, The info I have is :Crecy 1346:
English army numbering 9,000 under King Edward 111.
French Troops numbering 30,000 under King Philip V1
The village of Crecy-en-Ponthieu, near Abbeville. France.
August 26th 1346. Outcome French were slaughtered by the intense English Archers, lost 10,000. English loss about 100 men.
The Genose Crossbowmen style of Warfare was not acceptable to the impertous French Nobility, and at Crecy they were pushed aside before acheiving anything.

This info is from one of my Books on Medieval Battles. The Book is called "Battles of the Medieval World". Cheers Roadie.

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Re: Now I know people dont like crossbows

#18 Post by looseplucker » Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:31 am

GrahameA wrote:Morning All.

As I have said before:

1097, Pope Urban II proclaimed that Crossbows were not to be used against Christians,
1139, Pope Innocent II convened a Lateran Council which declared the penalty of anathema for use of such agaimst Christians (1)
1199, Richard Coeur de Lion got himself killed by a bolt.

Thus Crossbows are inherently "evil". You have almost 1000 years of dogma to argue against.

(1) Note:
Translations vary.
Archers get a mention as well!!
CANON 29

Summary. Slingers and archers directing their art against Christians, are anathematized.

Text. We forbid under penalty of anathema that that deadly and God-detested art of stingers and archers be in the future exercised against Christians and Catholics.

Comment. The reference seems to be to a sort of tournament, the nature of which was the shooting of arrows and other projectiles on a wager. The practice had already been condemned by Urban II in canon 7 of the Lateran Synod of 1097, no doubt because of the it involved. [[41]]
Ref http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran2.asp
Snakes and banjos get a bum rap from the Church as well.
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Re: Now I know people dont like crossbows

#19 Post by kerry » Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:59 am

Be wary of the tritone while playing the banjo LP you'll be straight to hell :lol:
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Re: Now I know people dont like crossbows

#20 Post by Chase N. Nocks » Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:57 pm

This is what I would like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5nVSfv0Rlg

but this one is pretty cool as well (and more likely)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9KleCswrGk

Cheers
Troy

Like I said, I am a ho for anything that shoots.
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I am an Archer. I am not a traditional archer, bowhunter, compound shooter or target archer.....I am an Archer
"Shooting the Stickbow"

....enforced by the "whistling grey-goose wing."
"The Witchery of Archery"

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Re: Now I know people dont like crossbows

#21 Post by Roadie » Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:38 pm

Keep Dreaming Troy. Cheers Roadie.

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Re: Now I know people dont like crossbows

#22 Post by perry » Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:33 pm

A while back Troy a good Mate "Evil Dave" had an Excalibur Crossbow, 225# Recurve Limbs , Crikey that thing was fast , accurate and handled very well. We spent many hours plinking with it. Compound Crossbows are just like Compound Bows, a pain in the provebial if you bust a string, a big possibility with a Crossbow. You need a Bow Press and a goodly number of Tools. Recurve Crossbows are Powerfull and simpler to maintain. Bracing a 225# Crossbow is a good workout.

http://www.excaliburcrossbow.com/

regards Jacko
"To my deep morticication my father once said to me, 'You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family.' "

- Charles Darwin

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Re: Now I know people dont like crossbows

#23 Post by Chase N. Nocks » Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:41 pm

G'day fellas

I posted this in the Flight shooting topic but thought I would repeat it here.

Very funny and topical to both subjects. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAUp1ripJLE

Cheers
Troy
I am an Archer. I am not a traditional archer, bowhunter, compound shooter or target archer.....I am an Archer
"Shooting the Stickbow"

....enforced by the "whistling grey-goose wing."
"The Witchery of Archery"

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Re: Now I know people dont like crossbows

#24 Post by dawallace45 » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:30 am

I've always liked crossbows and have had several over the years and would still have one now if it weren't for the fact hat my back is stuffed and I pop it out every time I cock one , guess I need one like the electric one or the one with the wind up handle

Back years ago my club had no problem with some one on the range

David

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Re: Now I know people dont like crossbows

#25 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:50 am

I like 'em too and always have. I had one when I lived in Victoria - one of John Clark's 'Cressy' models, but could not bring it across the border into NSW because this state has had a ban on them ever since I was a kid and pretty much still has (but I am working on them). Like most here, I have never understood the antipathy. For too long, most of the clubs (but not all) within the archery organizations and especially ABA would not tolerate them. For too long, they could be bought by underage youths with nowhere to go to learn to use them properly and safely and the inevitable misuse occurred.

The tail chasing always ensured from the major archery organizations whereby they denied their involvement with them and expounded their antipathy toward them so that they would not have to wear any of the mud from misuse, the result of which can very squarely be laid at their feet as directly culpable for that misuse. And so, misuse continued, denials ensued and so it went round until legislators started banning them as silent long range weapons of assassins and other such rot.

Victoria quite recently has relaxed its laws to the point that one only need to be a paid up member of a recognised archery or hunting organization, and that it must be rendered inoperable when not in use OR stored in a gunsafe if it cannot. The previous licensing system has been dispensed with. There is also an age limit as well or underage persons must use one under the direct supervision of an adult. They have always been legal for hunting Deer and any pest animals in Victoria.

NSW, the only state which still believes that it is a penal settlement, remains in the dark ages.

I thought originally that it would be a good thing to have one for my old age when drawing a conventional bow got more difficult, but crossbows are much more difficult to span if you don't have the right equipment. They need to be about twice the draw weight to get the same ballistics as a conventional bow with a similar mass arrow because of the short prod and very short power stroke.

My preference is for the ancient kind like the Skåne lockbow design which has a pin system which disengages the spanned string. It is VERY primitive compared to the later nut mechanism, but these bows can be easily made by the homecrafter as an all wood project. Here are some pics from the PaleoPlanet site in the US. This is a very attractive bow.
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To shoot it (bows are NEVER fired - only guns are fired), the string is spanned to drop into the notch in the tiller and the tickler (under lever) pushes a dowel pin up against the string to push it out of the notch, whereupon, the string strikes the butt of the bolt and propels it forward along the 'V' groove - very simple indeed.

Both the prod and the tickler are tied to the tiller with a system known as a bridle - again very simple and effective. The prod is set into the tiller at a slightly forward tilting angle so that the string has minimum friction contact with the upper surface of the tiller as it moves forward. This slight angling of the prod can just be made out in Pic 4 above. The angle is worked out by checking how the string on a braced prod contacts the tiller when it is in position. Then the angle of the notch for the prod is created so that the string of the braced prod is barely in contact with the tiller surface. This may seem to want to induce some kind of rotational twisting of the prod, but using something akin to pin nocks on the prod allow the string loops to rotate on the nock pins as the string moves backward and forward thus preventing twisting. Very simple and ingenious.

Neither is there usually a stirrup on this more ancient design, but it is not unheard of even in contemporary times. Spanning was usually achieved by placing both feet on the prod on either side of the tiller and drawing back the string. As in ancient times and akin to this particular crossbow, the prods were commonly protected in the mid-section by a leather wrapping which provided placements for the feet during spanning.

These crossbows were used mostly by peasants and commonly used for hunting. They were usually not of the massive draw weights required for military use and did not need to be.
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

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Re: Now I know people dont like crossbows

#26 Post by perry » Sat Sep 01, 2012 7:17 am

Nice looking Crossbow Dennis and an informative read. The Celtic decoration is quite Striking in it's contrast. This image has caused me to miss my Crossbows and I have a tight knot in my Gut as it annoys me to this Day I was backed into a corner to Hand my Catorgory M Licence and Crossbows in for Destruction.

Some years ago a few Police from Weapons Licencing here in Qld when formulating the BS restrictions / legislation they had been instructed to Draft were amazed when Cliff showed them such a Crossbow, the utter simplicity of it, how effective a couple of finely crafted pieces of Timber and a bit of Stout String could be. This type of Crossbow lead to them abandoning their gut reaction to Restrict the Trigger Mechanism and Prod but to Restrict the Stock as it housed the Trigger Mechanism. The Prod on the Crossbow they inspected was quite long and could be conceivably be shot by Hand.

The irrational distain so many Archers have for Crossbows is all the more puzzling when consider what goes into accurate Bolts. They share quality's of an accurate Arrow, big % FOC, long taper to the Nock the main 2 for me. Realising this was one of the Ah Ha moments that lead me to learn how to make decent timber Arrows. Lots of lessons to be learned when you understand Crossbows.

One thing I did with my Crossbows instead of a Metal Stirrup or binding the Limbs where you placed your feet to Cock them was to make a Rawhide Stirrup in the same manner as a Flemish twist string and slip this over the Prod before binding it in place. As the Rawhide dried it stiffened and stayed open. Trick is not to make the loops so tight they constrict the Prod, they Shrink as they Dry and could cause Failure at the tight point. You can splice some Hemp or Jute Rope onto the Prod to form a Stirrup if desired

regards Jacko
"To my deep morticication my father once said to me, 'You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family.' "

- Charles Darwin

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Re: Now I know people dont like crossbows

#27 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:56 am

Perry,

I have also been toying with some kind of stirrup using some rope to forma loop which I would feed through the bridle hole and let hang. Stirrups make spanning much easier. With my rope idea (which is probably also somebody else's from long ago) I would just put my foot into the rope loop and use it the same way. It would fall out of the way during shooting.

And regarding the aerodynamics of crossbow bolts, I know exactly what you are talking about. I did a post on on Ozbow about a genuine mediaeval bolt from around the 15th or 16th centuries I picked up at a gun show. Those mediaeval crossbowmen were right onto FOC way back then. I also think that they are much more difficult to get to fly true than conventional arrows because of the short length. There is a lot more work in them than arrows in my opinion.
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

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Re: Now I know people dont like crossbows

#28 Post by Len » Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:02 pm

Dennis, love the look of that early all wooden crossbow.For those interested its been estimated that a crossbow during the Hundred years war had to have a draw of 350-400 pound to be on a par with an English longbow. Siege crossbows often had a draw of 800lb+.
Hmmmmmmm.............

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Re: Now I know people dont like crossbows

#29 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:22 pm

We often measure against military materiels, but most bows by far, both vertical and crossbows were used by common folk for hunting, for which you don't need anywhere near those prodigious draw weights. For myself, military hardware has only a passing interest. Hunting equipment is much more interesting. A 100lb crossbow and well made bolts will easily kill most of the huntable stuff we have have here in Australia.
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

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Re: Now I know people dont like crossbows

#30 Post by excelpoint » Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:06 pm

They are great fun Troy :)

Image

Got to have a play with one when I was in the US
Chase N. Nocks wrote:This is what I would like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5nVSfv0Rlg

but this one is pretty cool as well (and more likely)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9KleCswrGk

Cheers
Troy

Like I said, I am a ho for anything that shoots.

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