use of aluminium and carbon arrows at trad shoots

[perry]

You old Tart Grant, sharing Malt with all and sundry your a good Man, For your Trad Shoot I turn up and Shoot Takedown Arrows

Some years ago I shot a whole 3d Season with a set of Takedown Arrows. I made the Top Ten Barebow at this particular shoot. As the Top Ten advanced and I got eliminated I clearly remember the stunned look on 200 compound shooters faces when I unbraced my Bow, a lovely Pink Ash Selfbow I fitted with a $4 Stainless Steel Marine Hatch Hinge. I folded the Bow in half dropped it into my Quiver, then I pulled my sleeve and socket T/D arrow apart and dropped it inside the Quiver beside my Bow - bloody priceless it was

So the plot thickens - only beaten in the Clout - Mmmm

regards Perry

[longbowinfected]

Hazard, stop trying to pretend you never win one of our discourses

Roadie, why limit feather size? Wood or boo arrows with feathers is good enough. What if someone wanted to shoot without feathers? They get no advantage. Small feathers are great for crosswind situations. I use my thin boo arrows with four small feathers tied on with sinews. Anyone going to say they are not trad?

Little John, I have shot with Guenter when he has used woods and there is not much difference in the result. Good to see him take up the challenge though for next year. I have shot with him a lot the last few weeks as he has been working in Sydney and I know he has had a bad time with the flu and has not been at his best. I suspect he may be pretty focussed for next year.

Kev

[Roadie]

Is Bamboo a wood or is it a Grass, I don't mind if some one turns up with 3 or 4 fletchings on their wooden or bamboo shafts as long as there is an overall length of 12 ". You can have 6- 2" feather if that what floats your boat.

To Event Organizers of TRAD SHOOTS, What would you do,
If some one turned up with a Bow and he had just plain shafts and a pointed end, what would you people do, let him shoot at your Trad event. Cheers ALL. Roadie.

[longbowinfected]

Never noticed feather length requirements at either HVTA or Wisemans nor the generic rules discussed on this site. I thought those sorts of rules were part and parcel for ABA. Even AA does not try to dictate like that.

So I glue on 12 inches of feathers and trim them to 2mm height and it would be OK? Not that much different to four very small feathers one or two inches long.

Kevin

[Roadie]

The Club I belong to is an ABA club, so I adhere to the rules. I may not always agree with Rules & Regulations, but if I want to shoot at an event and the Rules state such & such i comply, if not i take my Bow and go and play somewhere else. So far I have been allowed to Play & Drink (after Hrs) with some Great People. Cheers Roadie.

[longbowinfected]

I did not realise you shot at an ABA club. I thoought it was a trad club. I do not ordinarily have the time to shoot at ABA clubs [and rarely at 3DAAA] so I am not motivated to make up arrows just to shoot at one. There really is a limit to how many sets of arrows you should make in front of the minister. Independent clubs I visit are simply happy to see you. Reason why I go to HVTA and Wisemans when I can. However ASNSW tends to put tournaments on on long weekends cruelling that.

AA longbow rules allow the use of deflex/reflex and alloys so there is not a lot of consistency between the various codes/associations.

I guess they have reasons but it does not make much sense to me.

Kevin

[kerry]

Is Bamboo a wood or is it a Grass, I don't mind if some one turns up with 3 or 4 fletchings on their wooden or bamboo shafts as long as there is an overall length of 12 ". You can have 6- 2" feather if that what floats your boat.

To Event Organizers of TRAD SHOOTS, What would you do,
If some one turned up with a Bow and he had just plain shafts and a pointed end, what would you people do, let him shoot at your Trad event. Cheers ALL. Roadie.

i guess if a native New Guinean turned up with his unfletched arrows I'd let him shoot , you can't get much more trad than them.

[Roadie]

Dressed in All his Birds of Paradise Head Gear and Bow, How COOL is That. You could'nt Say no. Primitive Division. Cheers Roadie.

[perry]

Is Bamboo a wood or is it a Grass, I don't mind if some one turns up with 3 or 4 fletchings on their wooden or bamboo shafts as long as there is an overall length of 12 ". You can have 6- 2" feather if that what floats your boat.

To Event Organizers of TRAD SHOOTS, What would you do,
If some one turned up with a Bow and he had just plain shafts and a pointed end, what would you people do, let him shoot at your Trad event. Cheers ALL. Roadie.

Grant, absoloutely provided they demonstrated to me those Arrows where correctly matched to the Bow and the Bow was tuned. Arrows without Fletches, especially those with an FOC in excess of 18% - 20 % when shot from a properly tuned Bow will fly accurately. I use bareshaft tuning to arrive at the perfect spine for my Arrows. It is perfectly possible to acheive great arrow flight without fletching.

Fletching length has little to do with good Arrow Flight. I could fletch Arrows with 3 x 3" Feathers and have a greater surface area of Fletching than 3 x 4" commercial cut Fletches. The store bought stuff is cut quite low. Homecut Fletches can be cut higher and therefor have more surface area to create drag and stabilize the Arrows.

Somewhere along the line this 12" fletch rule that ABA adopted way back has been misinterpretted to mean that this a minimum requirment for stable Arrow flight from Trad Bows.

A while back a set of Rules was drafted with a view to them eventually evolving to form uniform equipment definitions across the Australian Trad Scene, ABA even adopted some of them. If clubs use the same Rules / Definitions that does not mean the Shoots with become bland / the same. The format is up to the Club. The format is what keeps a Clubs Trad Shoot fresh.

Like you say, comply or play elsewhere and thats fair enough. Having said that my blood still boils nearly 20 years on when at a Trad Shoot I was not allowed to shoot my Selfbow - there was no Selfbow division and it was deemed too short to be allowed in Longbow and did not have Recurves so it was not a Recurve. Nothing worse than Rules and definitions based on a lack of understanding and misinformation.

regards Perry

[longbowinfected]

the silly thing is if you glued on the right number of inches of feathers and then trimmed off the feather bit but left the spines with a bit of stubble you have put the right number of inches of feathers on.

I originally bareshafted all my arrows out to 50 metres before I even put flights on.
Now I make arrows to the same tolerances knowing that they will do the job.
Why anyone would let an association dictate what size feathers they would use is beyond me. Surely that is personal preference as would the number of strands in a bowstring given you meet safety requirements.

why deflex/reflex is frowned upon but some use slight reflex which is hidden when strung also bugs me.

Kev

[Roadie]

OK, Lets say some one trys to organizes a Trad shoot, No Rules or Regs, shoot what ever you want, as long as the Bow is considered a Trad, Horse Bow, Yumi, Self, and Primitve.
What do you think will be the outcome, and do you think it will work. A total FREE for All, Shoot.
Most Clubs hold Trad events either for themselves or some worth while organization to raise money. So there must be some sort of rule & Regs to abide by. Trying to put every one on the same Level playing field.
You don't see V8's racing against Porsche's in the V8 events. They mainly race against each other in the Modified Sports Sedan,each with their own Handicap. Do you want to see Trad Events go that way. I don't. Cheers Roadie.

[GrahameA]

Hi Grant.

Is Bamboo a wood or is it a Grass,

It is a Grass.

However, in addition most (all) associations accept Bamboo for use in both Arrows and Bows and state it. Now for the hard question - what about Reed arrows and Bows made from Palms (or just Horn or Bone and sinew bows)? You can Snooker yourself if you get overly prescriptive with Rules.

Can I shoot a Poly Bow??

[longbowinfected]

who said have no rules?
it appears you want to do a trad shoot using ABA rules at an ABA club. That is ok. Use whatever rules you want as that is your club's right.I personally dislike being made to adhere to rules that make no sense and are imposed without reasonable explanation. Therefore I would exercise my right not to attend. As you and others have commented earlier go shoot elsewhere.

I choose to shoot at trad events run using another set of rules independent of AA, 3DAAA or ABA . I prefer those rules as used at places like Wisemans and HVTA as they make more sense.Fewer rules the better. Fewer divisions/bow types the better for trad shoots. I cannot remember a single incident where anyone had to be called to book at either those places and neither have judges but they do have safety monitors.

Having rules about about dictating the length of feathers is silly/not necessary/serves no reasonable purpose. My opinion. It is just as silly as telling people how long their arrows should be or what species of timber to use....if that were to happen.

I would expect my deflex/ reflex modern longbow would not be approved of/allowed either.

Kev

[longbowinfected]

I have a forestry and in particular timber production/utilisation background.
The material harvested from bamboo and used is called timber.
Yes the plant is a grass but the end product is timber.

Whilst not a great fan of Wiki whatever even they get that one right. Trying to differentiate timber harvested from bamboo as against timber harvested from hardwood or softwood trees would be ridiculous.
If you were to do so every bow would have to be cut in half and the end grain examined by a timber technologist or forester using a handlens.

There is certainly lots of historical evidence indicating a broad band of natural resources used for traditionally making bows and arrows. Grahame is quite right in his post about boxing yourself in with silly rules. The Indians used flattened hollow metal tube longbows and recurves as there was a lack of available timber. The Brits used to produce a range of take down tubular longbows that won national medals in Australia and Britain near the war and before the advent of modern recurves and compounds.

Kevin

[Roadie]

Just playing the Devils Advcote. Cheers Roadie.

[kerrille]

not to mention english war bows could have a steamed ,reflex deflex put into them.

..nev...

[kerrille]

what about self nocks ,ive had plenty of plastic nocks break but never a self nock

...nev...

[Bent Stick]

You can't keep everyone happy all the time, you can't keep some people happy at any time. a little bridge building 101 might be a good thing, it is what it is, your either a happy guest (you built your bridge) or your more than welcome not to go to the event and actually stand up and put on a shoot with a set of rules that float your boat.

little boys figure out p&*^%&*&ing into the wind is uunproductive at a young age, so maybe some need to stop wasting effort whinging on posts and start another shoot or three to have a shoot with the flavour of rules you like.

My two bobs worth, nobody will bitch about more shoots, trying to change another event to suit ourselves is just flexing the wrong group of muscles and impresses noone.

[asparky]

Roadie .... wouldnt it be better to putting archers of the same ability together .. there by ensuring an even competition...regardless of bow type or sex

[Roadie]

I don't give a Toss really, I shoot Longbows with wooden shafts because I want to, I go to shoots to meet up with mates,have a drink or too, some of Us get a little worse for wear. The shoots have Rules of engagment, I abide with the Rules or I don't shoot.
Mateship and having a great time is paramount, If I am lucky and I get a place in the comp so be it, As i say I'm only here for the mateship,drinks ond the awfull Jokes that are told around the camp fire. Cheers Roadie.

[Bent Stick]

I'm with you Roadie,
Question: "What was your score like?"
ktsshhhh
Answer: "??just raised it .05 and lookin better every minute"

[GrahameA]

Hi Nev.

what about self nocks ,ive had plenty of plastic nocks break but never a self nock

I wish that was true for me.

[perry]

Not Stirring here Folks just wondering based on past experience -

Self Nocks - last I checked IFAA do not allow Self Nocks, consider them unsafe ??? As ABA is an affiliate of IFAA I am reasonably sure they don't allow them either. An example of a plainly ridiculous Rule. I hope I am completly wrong these years later. One other Rule that perplexed me back when was not allowing Glues made from Natural Materials, Hide Glue in particular, not up to the task apparently ??????????

Some years ago I submitted a whole Raft of suggested Rule Changes backed up with historical references and other evidence they had things not quite right for IFAA / ABA competition in the various Trad Divisions, well received by ABA, IFAA never acknologed receiving them.

Grahame, at the Hinterlad Shoot I broke my first Self Nock in many years, judging from the break the Arrow had been hit and I had not noticed. That particular set of Arrows where 13 years old so at least in my Eyes further proof about the durability of Timber Arrows and Self Nocks. Easy to repair but I have decided to retire whats left of that set of Arrows.

This question of Definition / Rules with Trad Archery IMO will never be adequitely addressed. Name another Competitive Sport with such a long history, such a rich divercity of equipment and all of it in common use. IMO creating Divisions will never work from an equity point of view, at the Trad Shoots I attend it is the same Faces on the podium shoot after shoot, year after year. Grading is a possible solution but then people whinge about a Primitive Bow shooting against a Modern Recurve and so on.

Blow it all up, loose the Trophy's and celebrate Traditional Archery Year dot to present. Leave the Competition / Trophy's and Divisions to the Governing Bodies.

regards Jacko

[kerrille]

all this came up at a trad shoot about 4 yrs ago ,i was asked if you dont come here to win why do you come here? wouldnt you like a trophy ? my son who hardly ever says a word said ,all dads trophy's are in the freezer ,says it all really .

[wishsong]

I love the idea of non competitive shoots and we hold 'informal ' ones every once in a while . I am planning on next year going to a couple of the big Non competitive shoots in the USA like Denton Hill and Cloverdale ...

But I am also a fan of the competitive shoot , I think it can raise the standard of archery and get people shooting better .
And out in the bush , chasing critters, accurate shooting is numero uno IMHO ...

Anything that raises the bar can only be a good thing ...

[Rock Steady]

Whoops

[looseplucker]

Dressed in All his Birds of Paradise Head Gear and Bow, How COOL is That. You could'nt Say no. Primitive Division. Cheers Roadie.

What about one of those "sheath" things (Hazard uses polypipe btw).

[Bent Stick]

Kerrile your little fella already a champ in my books, they just tell it like it is.

[longbowinfected]

Bent Stick, Roadie and I have shot at a number of shoots together. And shared a wee dram or three.
Not a peeing contest or a whinge but two old mates winding each other up........bit like an old married couple. This is track ten on an LP record.
If you read the others carefully no one is whinging it is all in good fun.

Kevin

[Bent Stick]

I know what it is mate this record goes round and round