use of aluminium and carbon arrows at trad shoots

[TexNAss]

As someone new to shooting one of these "crooked sticks" I'll throw my two bob in the arena.

Are you there to win or just for the fun?

Currently I'm happy if an arrow hits the "made in China" on the bottom of the target.
But that's me. I'm shooting a cheap horsebow as it was all that was within budget.

I've coped some ribing (and rightly so from the more serious trade shooters) as I'm shooting feathered carbon's

Being a Oneida owner it's nice to grab a set of arrows and either bow. If i was shooting targets then it'd be woods IMHO they are 'more' in the spirit than alloy or carbon's.

But each to their own. Are you shooting traditional or are you a target shooter?

Enjoy it and screw the rules. If the guy besides you starts getting too serious- give him a hand and throw an extra arrow in his target for him. You can then enjoy the shoot on woods and s/he can show his eliteness with an impossible score.

[Roadie]

Evening All, I think this has run it's course, It's been interesting to read the replys. I know what i want and need to do, so when I run the up and coming Trad Shoot here, I will state what the Rules & Reg are for the shoot, so those who want to come and shoot & drink & have a great time by the reg as required are more than welcome. Those who are not happy can use their democratict right and abstain. Time for another Malt. Slainte Roadie.

[GrahameA]

Hi Grant.

I think this has run it's course, It's been interesting to read the replys. I know what i want and need to do, so when I run the up and coming Trad Shoot here, I will state what the Rules & Reg are for the shoot, so those who want to come and shoot & drink & have a great time by the reg as required are more than welcome. Those who are not happy can use their democratict right and abstain. Time for another Malt. Slainte Roadie.

IMHO it hasn't. The issue is not what happens at the Midura Shoot or any other shoot for that matter. Rather it is all about people coming to some sort of consensus about what "Trad" is and people coming a realisation of how things are.

As an example I usually shoot tall 2 1/2" fletches which have a larger swept area that typical 4" shield cuts. (Although I have a few sets of arrows with 3x4" shields.) So sometimes the "rules" are biased against me - doesn't worry me much though. Then again I joined the Perry don't keep score Association a few years ago - plus it is hard to shoot and take good photos. If I did not like the rules at a shoot I would just ignore them or not go.

The big issue for me and Trad Shoots is available time and travelling. Yet I have done the drive to Rob's place - and the hard part there is driving over the border and into the cold.

There has been a huge amount of discussion on this topic over the last 5 years and it interesting to see that what were points of contention 5 years ago are still there today.

All the Best - the weather has been superb the last couple of days up here, the first touches of Spring.
Grahame

[AndyD]

I've coped some ribing (and rightly so from the more serious trade shooters) as I'm shooting feathered carbon's

These serious trad shooters should take a look at themselves. Are they using new laminated, carbon dohickey bows with kevlar karate action strings?

I shoot a carbon based bow, fastflight strings and feathered carbon. It feels good and I'm happy and confident with my accuracy to shoot out to 35 metres on pig \ goat sized game.
It works for me and brings me pleasure - hence I do it.
If some competition wants to make our already niche sport even more so; then I'd not compete and go for the social \ fun aspect.

I love wood arrows - and agree they have more character, but make less sense to my style of hunting and shooting.

[Shrek]

I broke the Rules at our recent event,on the promo flyer I stated only woods,12 feather ect. but new members wanted to get involved we allowed a raft of non trad gear so they could see how we play.Result a group of people would have fallen in love with what we do and how we do it.OORAH White hawk and Perry its about where you are and who you are with.I am in awe of my mates and their skills and the beauty they produce but time constraints and being a ham fisted Knuckle head pulls me up short so I play with gear that was made by someone who can turn out good gear and stumble around in the company of great people, and that, when I'm not imploding on my stuff ups sees me right and keeps me smiling.

[Roadie]

Ay Shrek Whats that stuff that causes you to Implode and Stumble. Cheers Roadie.

[GrahameA]

Hi Cleve.

I broke the Rules at our recent event,on the promo flyer I stated only woods,12 feather ect. but new members wanted to get involved we allowed a raft of non trad gear so they could see how we play.

It could not have been that bad. I drove past Gaven yesterday and there was noy a hole in the ground where it had been swallowed up or blown off the face of the planet.

Result a group of people would have fallen in love with what we do and how we do it.

And they will come back again. My view is the more people that join-in the better off we are. And they have a large bright future ahead of them as they new things and experience more.

It is all good. Shrek and it was a great shoot.

Next year I am staying for Saturday Dinner.

[Shrek]

More than welcome Graham,my girl can certainly put some great "vittals" together,hence my robust form.

[longbowinfected]

Shrek you hit the core of the matter. Be inclusive and bring more in. Those who get to try stay in it and as they can get into the proper gear according to their means. The big problem with associations and too many rules is that you end up with an elite group far removed from the ordinary folk and that is where the problems start. Having said that guys like the top shooters at HVTA and Wisemans do not exhibit big egos and are true ambassadors for our sport.

Let people shoot off gear but say they are not in the running for gongs.

Kevin

[Roadie]

My point exactly Kevin, But you do need some Rules. Cheers Roadie.

[GrahameA]

Hi Grant.

My point exactly Kevin, But you do need some Rules. Cheers Roadie.

My view is the effectively the same.

[danceswithdingoes]

how novel, a woods vs alloy debate, takes me back a few years when 3DAAA saw the sense to allow alloys and carbons in the longbow division, which was consequently followed by howls of protest by wood supporters claiming it would destroy the game (and didn't I cop it with some rather personal inflections) well its still going and I'm sure the odd shooter finds the game a little more enjoyable with more durable arrows, so its nice to see the debate still going. BTW if the shoot says 'woods only', I would shoot woods

[Roadie]

And that's All one can ask for. Cheers Roadie.

[from sweden]

Hi guys my 2 cents < im a trad shooter with carbons >

as for arrows yes there is a slight advantage out to 30 meters with carbon and aluminum
but after 30 meters there is a huge advantage with carbon and alloys not so much at closer distances for obviously reasons

MY solution and its the smartest one in my opinion give the wood arrow shooters a say 3-5%
advantage on the scores depending on how many targets for ex if 500 is carbon shooters highest score < 50 arrows >
a wood shooter would only need 475 to win the shoot, no that prob to big of handicap for only 30 targets but for 50 targets 5% sound reasonable
i actually think the 5 % on a big shoot 50+ targets .
and then more like 2.5-3 % handicap ,on smaller shoots 30 target shoots ...DAMN IM SMART !!!!

but trad for me is shooting of the shelf no sights and preferable no metal riser
like perry said fast-flight strings, reflex_deflex ,3 piece longbows ,phenolic limb tips,
fiber glass in bow clear fiber glass plastic nocks on the wooden arrows . traditional is in the mind of the traditionalist
and no more divisions we already have to many and in my opinion
if you are shooting of the shelf recurve or longbow wich is trad in 3daaa wich is same
rules as biggest trad division in america recurve or longbow of the shelf any arrow material and in my opinion
the longbow is just as accurate when wooden bow wooden riser of the shelf is used black widow great plains bob lee
if not more forgiving anyway like i said my solution is the best one !!!!!! < Cody for prime minister >

Cheers Cody

[Gringa Bows]

I think if the shoot rules state wood arrows and feathers,and a person doesn't want to shoot woods and feathers they should give that shoot a miss

[Roadie]

Thank you Rod, can't argue with that . Cheers Roadie.

[from sweden]

Rod that's fair enough most of times i give it a miss if wood arrows only , unless i happen to have a few straight ones
im renting now so i dont have my arrow making facility and i sold most wood making stuff i do not like to buy wood arrows
they might look good but unless i make them my self they dont fly as nice as i want
but if using my 2-5% rule a carbon shooter would need to shoot a higher score in order to win

now Ian is a very good trad 3d shooter so for him to raise this issue is unusual cause most of times the ones complaining about
carbon and alloys being used would not have a chance in hell of winning no matter what arrow material used
if it says wood arrow only shoot thats great other wise any material should be able to be used
Mark easton makes his own arrows and uses wooden nocks but i bet you he still has fiberglass in his bow
Fred Bear shoot aluminium and thats traditional enough for me as long as of the shelf no sights no metal riser
Cheers Cody

[little arrows]

here we go round the mulberry bush............again.....

Here, Here, Rod and Roadie, we shall 3rd that motion.

cheers
sue

[perry]

The Mulberry Bush indeed Sue, I can see you shaking your head right now and wondering why !!!

I do not understand this thing against Metal Risers, they go back Hundreds of years, Fibreglass Bow Lams are the new Kid on the Block by comparision, even Alluminium Arrows predate it's invention let alone use in Bows by Decades. There was a true Centreshot T/D Bow with what would pass as an elevated Rest in the late 19th Century, only possible because of the use of Metal in the Riser. The Chinese had a metal Hinge type T/D in the 17th Century.

Traditional Archery is emmencly diverse. It defies being constrained by Divisions, being catagorized , being Pidgeon Holed. There is no easy answer to this so long as people can not get over this Natural Vs Synthetic Arrows, Recurve, Deflex Reflex, Longbow, Horsebow, Selfbow bit. If Archers would get out there, work bloody hard on their Form they would learn that there is bugger all difference in the accuracy potential of all these Bows. The best Archer will always win regardless of what they are Shooting.

If I am prepared to to put the work in I can make a set of Wood Arrows that will shoot right up with Carbon Arrows to the limits of my ability. Yes Carbons are more economical in a Man Hours to earn the money to Buy them Vs drag through the Scrub knock about durability comparision but in the Trad Game in this Country, with a 30 yard shot being considered a long one I honestly believe there is no significnt difference.

I've mentioned a fair bit lately, I have just retired the last 4 of 24 Sitka Spruce Arrows I made 13 years ago, each Arrow must have been shot thousands and thousands of times. They survived countless impacts with Rocks, Star Pickets, dual layers of Roofing Iron, Hardwood Tree's and they just kept going. Refooted a few 2 or 3 times, replaced broken Selfnocks with whittled bit of stick I picked off the ground - try repairs of this nature with Carbon or Alloy

Now the hypocritic bit,

Jason please do not take this the wrong way, I'm speaking plainly and I mean not offence but this is usually when I end up in trouble, I am constantly on the opposite end of a different opinion on a lot of things in the Trad Archery World so know exactly how you felt. IMO 3DAAA's Trad Div does not have the participation levels to adopt the Synthetic Arrow Rules as used in overseas IBO Competition. 3DAAA already has seperate Trad Bow Divisions , one allows Synthetic Arrows, one does not - Recurve Unaided and Trad Div. Speaking for myself I did not believe that having 2 Divisions in which Trad Archers could shoot Alloy and Carbon Arrows was the right way to go in this Country at this time.

I honestly believe that if an Archer is time poor enough not to be able to make their own quality timber Arrows and then maintain them, then they have a Choice, not play the Game or pay someone else to make the Timber Arrows for you and stay in Trad Div or purchase Carbon or Alluminium Arrows and shoot Recurve Unaided. It does not matter standard Scores required on average for a podium result are higher in Recurve Unaided - work harder. Look at the top Archer in Trad Div and then compare his Score to the podium results in Recurve Unaided. Again the best Archer placed and usually the best Archer worked bloody hard to hone their Skills.

regards Jacko

[jcm]

What ever pleases you.A twig,string and a cane - a plastic curve with sights and a carbon knitting needle.
Enjoy the "arrow" launching ,follow its flight and share the day and camp site with the comrades around .
John

[Bent Stick]

Has everyone fired their arrows yet? my throat is parched

[GrahameA]

Hi Perry.

...
Jason please do not take this the wrong way, I'm speaking plainly and I mean not offence but this is usually when I end up in trouble, I am constantly on the opposite end of a different opinion on a lot of things in the Trad Archery World so know exactly how you felt. IMO 3DAAA's Trad Div does not have the participation levels to adopt the Synthetic Arrow Rules as used in overseas IBO Competition. 3DAAA already has seperate Trad Bow Divisions , one allows Synthetic Arrows, one does not - Recurve Unaided and Trad Div. Speaking for myself I did not believe that having 2 Divisions in which Trad Archers could shoot Alloy and Carbon Arrows was the right way to go in this Country at this time.

I honestly believe that if an Archer is time poor enough not to be able to make their own quality timber Arrows and then maintain them, then they have a Choice, not play the Game or pay someone else to make the Timber Arrows for you and stay in Trad Div or purchase Carbon or Alluminium Arrows and shoot Recurve Unaided. It does not matter standard Scores required on average for a podium result are higher in Recurve Unaided - work harder. Look at the top Archer in Trad Div and then compare his Score to the podium results in Recurve Unaided. Again the best Archer placed and usually the best Archer worked bloody hard to hone their Skills.

Applause.

Grahame.

Addenda. Back to Self Nocks - I seem to be unlucky. They are tough but I still smash the odd nock. For a change last weekend I had a footed shaft destroyed. Lent the gear to a beginner - he shot low and hit a metal cross-bar.

[Roadie]

Bent Stick can I offer you a Malt Whisky for your parched throat. Cheers Roadie.

[Bent Stick]

Grant you twisted my arm, two fingers please

[Chase N. Nocks]

Perry

I like the idea of non competative shoots very much in the concept of a gathering. Pay your fees - camp - shoot with who you want - shoot the courses you want.

Very much like the idea of equipment making demonstrations - even if there was a nominal fee involved.

I am one of those time poor bastards I am afraid. Even if I had the time I have never made a really decent set of arrows.

I agree with everything you and others have said about arrow quality importance. Just look at my quiver at any shoot and you will see that I have every base covered with at least one quality arrow of each spine, point weight, fletch length and straigtness.

Finally if there is a Trad Shoot that insists on wood arrows to compete I would like to think that I can still show up with my wood/aluminium/carbon arrows and at least participate and be a part of the fun. I am more than happy with that.

Cheers
Troy

[bigbob]

Dearie me my poor head is spinning again.

[Roadie]

BentStick do you want Ice with that or straight, and is that 2 of my fingers or 2 of yours. Slainte Roadie.

[Chase N. Nocks]

Sorry Bob, I should clarify.

When I say participate I don't mean for a Gong. Just as long as I can shoot and have a laugh (usually at my own shooting).

If I want to compete I will accept and follow the club rules on the day.

If i disagreed with an Association's rules I would petition the Association and it's members through the forums, committee members and AGM's. If I felt strongly enough about it.

For instance I think that all the Barebow styles should be accepted equally as legitimate for Barebow competition. Instinctive/Gap, Face Walking and String Walking.

But I won't cloud the topic by mentioning that here.

Cheers
Troy

[Roadie]

Drinks anyone, this could be a long night Cheers.

[bigbob]

howdy Troy,that little droll comment from me wasn't aimed at anyone, just all the collective to and fro ing over all the posts.My advancing dementia precludes me from digesting too much info at a time!