What do we think (and play nicely)

[looseplucker]

This is sparking some debate.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/shooters-push ... 1y467.html

I think I'd be OK with my young bloke out with a bow by himself, depending on the terrain etc - but not with a shooter until at least 15 or 16.

This leaves aside that I would much prefer to hunt in a pair in any event.

[longbowinfected]

I would not want my 15 year old daughter out there by herself for reasons other than a lack of trust in her or her ability or trustworthiness.
Difficult this one.
On one hand minors cannot posses knives in public yet other legislation might see them in public by themselves with a gun or bow, yet if hunting they would need a knife....in my opinion.

Personally I think we let kids have powerful cars far too early in life. I do not feel safe letting this one through as it will undoubtedly cause angst in birthing the legislation and if anything goes wrong could mean the end or restriction of using longarms, hunting etc.

No matter how mature a minor is, he or she are minors. I would rather see them hunt in a club and with mentors if they wish to hunt. This is an age to learn and hopefully adopt ethics and mores, not a time for independent experimentation.

Kevin

[rmcpb]

Times change. Whe I was that age I was often up on the hill with the pea rifle staking out a rabbit warren but that was very controlled.

As for letting kids go off alone into an area they don't know where there are potentially other hunters you don't know is just loony. I have no problem with them being allowed to hunt BUT it should be within a group, its just basic safety, fun and common sense.

This legislation would be the thin edge of the wedge if and when anything goes wrong. After the first misadventrue the regulations would be tightened like never before. After all the pollies will not need the votes in the upper house once they get the privatisation through and other deals will be done in future.

[Bent Stick]

Although I often hunt by myself I do so as a calculated risk and I mitigate those risks as much as possible, however a fall, good snake bite, gored or sticking a broadhead into myself are all risks which may cost me my life, Even more so in very remote country. If a twelve year old is not capable of deciding to risk their life and join the ADF are they then not deemed responsible enough to accept this risk? However supervised eg. Dad tagging along and keeping well back but in radio contact and able to abort or spoil a potential folly, then it's training with Dad making those calls. I do prefer a hunting buddy whenever possible as the risks are real and the results can be fatal. I think we'd need to the legislation so maybe the on omission of some adult supervision could be assessed. The kid actually stalking in and going for it may be what the reporter is alluding to.

Saying that when I was a young bloke we'd be off on the bikes on the weekend with the rifles, obviously the parents of all of us did a lot of hard work training and assessing our competency to do so.

No acceptance or denial here on my part theirs inconsistency more than anything else, but young blood spending a weekend hunting ferals and being productive is better for them than the skate park, wii, hanging out bored with Derro mates

[longbowinfected]

the trouble is not all the kids would be well trained....even if they passed competency based courses and many would not be mature enough. No doubt thougfh that many, probably the majority would but look at the harm a minority of bad intentioned youngsters car drivers have caused.

The other problem is that when I was young I spent more than a few years regularly hunting under adult supervision before being given my own .22 on my sixteenth birthday and I was still asked to always hunt with a responsible mate/shooting partner even if plinking bunnies half a mile away from the house. These days there are a lot more eyes on and some of these eyes have very strong bias against what most of us having been doing safely and ethically..

Incidently I asked my daughter how she felt and she did not feel she needed to go out on her own. She saw hunting as something you shared with someone you trusted who had a like mind and was prepared to wait a few years to lead such activity but within a team.

I can see the need to give younger hunters legal access but would prefer it to be in guided experienced company. Not everyone has access to privately owned properties and that does hold the sport back. I do think gunsports and bowsports should be offered in the schools as an activity in much the same way volunteer bush fire fighting is as long as their is adequate training and supervision.

Kevin

[Rock Steady]

Probably better off reading the actual proposed amendment and commenting on what it says.

14 Special provisions for licences authorising minors to hunt unsupervised

(1) The Game Council must not grant a game hunting licence that authorises a minor to hunt for game animals without the close personal supervision of a qualified adult unless a parent of the minor:
(a) has consented, in the approved form, to the minor doing so without that supervision for the duration of the licence, and
(b) has agreed, in the approved form, to indemnify the GameCouncil, the State and anyone for whom the Game Council or the State is vicariously liable, in respect of any civil liability for the death of or injury to any person, and for any damage to property, arising at any time as a result of or in connection with the minor hunting when not under that supervision. Note. This clause does not apply to hunting with a firearm. A minor cannot hunt with a firearm except under the close personal supervision of a qualified adult. See clause 2 of Schedule 1.

(2) Any such licence must show:
(a) the minor’s full name, and
(b) the minor’s residential address, and
(c) the minor’s date of birth, and
(d) the expiry date of the licence, and
(e) that the licence authorises the minor to hunt for game animals (other than by using firearms) without the close personal supervision of a qualified adult.

(3) The Game Council must cancel any such licence:
(a) on receiving notification from the parent, in the approved form, that the parent has withdrawn his or her consent, or
(b) on becoming aware that the parent has died or no longer has the legal capacity to give any such consent, or
(c) on becoming aware that the parent has:
(i) become bankrupt, or
(ii) applied to take the benefit of any law for the relief of bankrupt or insolvent debts, or
(iii) compounded with his or her creditors or made an assignment of his or her remuneration for their benefit, or
(d) on determining that there are circumstances from which it can be reasonably inferred that the parent has withdrawn his or her consent or no longer has a parental role in relation to the minor.

(4) An agreement referred to in this clause applies only in respect of hunting that the minor carries out during the period in which the licence is in force.

(5) In this clause: parent has the same meaning as in the Children and Young Persons (Care and Protection) Act 1998.

[Roadie]

Can some one please enlighten me why a Bankrupt person (Adult) can not give permission for a minor to go hunting.
What am I not seeing here. Cheers Roadie.

[flyne]

I was hunting on my own from about age 8 with the bow and my dogs and I got my first pig dog when I was 12 I would always have a dead line when I would be home and they would know whea on the farm I would be and I always had a mobile or UHF on me to keep the olds informed
so I don't see the problem but that's just me
Cheers Jim

[longbowinfected]

I had read the proposed material.
I expressed my views independent of what the proposal contains as much of it will change shape and colour. The nuts and bolts are rarely properly interpreted nor adhered to by Joe Average whether by design or ignorance. I think young people in the main can handle a lot of this but on the other hand it really exposes gunsports to harsh criticism by the naysayers and unfortunately the greater majority of folk do not understand the issues nor own guns nor hunt nor own bows and will have great difficulty engaging in meaningful discussion and will probably say no.....and they vote. They have the majority.

We were invited to comment about what we think about it not just what may or may not pass.
Trouble with allowing a lot of freedoms in such legislation/regulations is that people will always test the outer limits and the fact that common sense is not that common.

Could end up being a Pyric victory. Certainly hope not but it is definitely not a done deal and is something emotive where some might cross the floor of parliament, contrary to party lines irrespective of who ordinarily holds the balance of power.



Kevin

[Dennis La Varenne]

Can some one please enlighten me why a Bankrupt person (Adult) can not give permission for a minor to go hunting.

Yes. I wondered the same thing. What is the relevance?

[jindydiver]

On one hand minors cannot posses knives in public yet other legislation might see them in public by themselves with a gun or bow, yet if hunting they would need a knife....in my opinion.

What law prohibits a minor from carrying a knife hunting?

[jindydiver]

Can some one please enlighten me why a Bankrupt person (Adult) can not give permission for a minor to go hunting.
What am I not seeing here. Cheers Roadie.

I imagine it is about the capacity for a parent to take financial as well as moral responsibility for their child's actions while hunting under the GC permit system.

[Tuffcity]

high powered hunting bows

But not with high powered sniper bows... that would be just wrong... (where's the sarcasm font when you need it?)

I don't have an issue with it. But I haunted my grandparents farm, unattended, from age 8 or so, taking my butchers twine and maple switch bow up against the frogs of the ponds and the grainary mice. My own kids roamed the forests with me since the time they could stand to spend the day afield- having to be packed out, asleep, on my shoulders more than once. I started hunting on my own from 14 on, sometimes with like-minded mates as my dad didn't hunt. I learned other skills from him, like how to read and paddle rivers. I learned a love of the bow from my mother. My kids at 14/15 knew more bush craft, firearm safety and respect for the outdoors than some of the "mentors" I have seen.

Obviously each child will be different but I think it is very short sighted to cast each one from the same mold. Opportunity shouldn't be denied because "personal accountability" is deemed to be nearly extinct these days.

Will there be the occaisional problem? Probably. Unfortunately "stupid" can't be legislated against, no matter how hard the elected brain trust tries.

RC

[Roadie]

So why should Financial and or Moral standards be an issue. Does that mean that if you come from the lower part of the ladder that you and your children are not fit to go hunting, because you are a bit short on cash, so there fore you are a danger to the rest of the popluace. CRAP. Cheers Roadie.

[stickshooter]

16+ would be ok, but all the young ones I take out in the lower group need supervision so they don"t get Bushed or hurt themselves with sharp implements

[looseplucker]

Bankruptcy is relevant for the following:

"to indemnify the GameCouncil, the State and anyone for whom the Game Council or the State is vicariously liable, in respect of any civil liability for the death of or injury to any person, and for any damage to property, arising at any time as a result of or in connection with the minor hunting when not under that supervision"

A bankrupt is stone broke and so not in a position to indemnify anyone -

Essentially for a licence to be granted a condition is that the person giving permission etc to the minor must indemnify for anything that the minor does - i.e. shoots someone, injures stock, damages property.

This means the adult bears the risk of the minor doing those things in such a way (negligence etc) that gives rise to a civil liability.

Thusly if a person is bankrupt and doesnt have a cracker (and I think there are rules on what guarantees etc a bankrupt can give and arrangements they can enter into without consent of their trustee in bankruptcy - it has been a while since I practised in the area so that grinding noise is my memory) their indemnity is not worth half a schooner of warm rat spit.

[hazard]

I really sounds more like a trap specifically to cripple financially the Hunting community. Can you imagine the court case and the Media attention it would bring to our demise

Surely they cant be really considering this? If the AL group want to bring about an end to hunting that is the most efficient way to go about it

Are you sure this wasn't the suggestion of the Animal Rights wowsers? Just 1 kid needs to get injured and itl be on for young and old

Hazard

[looseplucker]

I really sounds more like a trap specifically to cripple financially the Hunting community. Can you imagine the court case and the Media attention it would bring to our demise

Surely they cant be really considering this? If the AL group want to bring about an end to hunting that is the most efficient way to go about it

Are you sure this wasn't the suggestion of the Animal Rights wowsers? Just 1 kid needs to get injured and itl be on for young and old

Hazard

I personally do not know what the proponents of this legislation are on. This is a PR disaster waiting to happen.

[longbowinfected]

Minors are not allowed to buy knives or have them in public places.....in NSW
Adults have to be careful carrying knives in public as well. The regs are not that clear and a lot depends upon whether you have caused someone concern or on the interpretation of a gendarme.
I wear a multi tool type Swiss Army knife as I am required to probe and cut timbers whilst inspecting houses as required by an Australian Standard. I wear it in plain sight in a belt scabbard but I do take it out when I go into shops. Common sense says do not get into a hassle if you do not need to.

I do not personally have a problem with a kid who is hunting carrying such a tool.
At HVTA they do not allow minors to use broadheads on their broadhead range.
You could argue that some of the places where hunting might be allowed are public places as the public are allowed to travel in, out and across them especially if there are roads.
You could also argue that a broadhead is a knife on a stick.

A strange juxtaposition if you restrict the carrying of knives for juniors and possession of aerosol spray cans but have no thoughts or consideration that there is a level of inconsistency that minors would be carrying longarms around in places more public than a privately held farm yet cannot buy or carry knives. These sorts of grey areas and inconsistencies end up creating a lot of unintended rulings and consequences later on.

Kevin

[longbowinfected]

I totally agree with you Looseplucker. The attempt will fire up unnecessary and unhealthy debate and if this passes, the first time there is a problem it will be used mightily. We as hunters, especially those with longarms would be hoist by/upon our own petard as it were.

Kevin

[looseplucker]

I totally agree with you Looseplucker. The attempt will fire up unnecessary and unhealthy debate and if this passes, the first time there is a problem it will be used mightily. We as hunters, especially those with longarms would be hoist by/upon our own petard as it were.

Kevin

Kevin, I think it is one of the daftest legislative proposals I have seen for a long time - and it is being used as a bargaining chip. It aint even clever politics. The person who dreamt this up has the strategic thinking skills of a goldfish.

BTW - "petard": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petard

[jindydiver]

Minors are not allowed to buy knives or have them in public places.....in NSW

Saying it twice doesn't add anything new. What law prevents through prohibition the carrying of a knife by a minor while out hunting?

[robmoore]

This is sparking some debate...

When this was announced a couple of days ago, I contacted the Game Council to find out more details. Amy Warr, their Communications Officer immediately emailed me links to the Public Consultation Draft and where comments are to be sent. That post is here:
http://www.ozbow.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.p ... 85#p128085

Mick, (Jindydiver) has looked at that. I'm not sure if everyone has read all the detail. It is up for comment but of course as looseplucker has already said, we need to "play nicely".


Bob

[looseplucker]

Oops. Missed that. As for playing nicely well I wondered whether it may get heated, which can happen.

And for the record, as I am going to be away for Origin: Qld are a whinging rabble and the NRL Judiciary NOT is biassed agin anything North of the Tweed, notwithstanding that the QRL and the rest of the maroon wearing mob give it every justification.

[Roadie]

Back when I was a Lad, I had a slug gun when I was 7, I was given a single shot Lithgow 22 which I still have for my 12th birthday.My Father and his brothers (Uncles) made me aware of my responsabilities with regards to hunting. I was always told, 1 rabbit 1 bullett, and don't just go shooting everything or any thing for the Hell of it. Life was so easy then
I have no issue with 12 plus age group with an adult out hunting, BUT on their own, this may not be a good move. Too many unknowen issue's here.

I still have an issue with the Fact that a Bankrupt person is considered not a fit person to go hunting, or allowed to let his child go hunting. In my opionion Aust is over regulated and under governed. Time for a coffee. Cheers Roadie

[Siege]

I don't think you can give permission as a whole. There are some bright kids out there and then there are those who should never own a gun. I think permission can be granted to younger kids provided they pass some sort of test to see how they conduct themselves, otherwise it falls solely on the parents to control the hunting and I can see things going wrong rather quickly.

[Dennis La Varenne]

Is anybody going to respond via the RIS system to this proposed Regulation? It seems that, like Victoria where I come from, NSW has a Subordinate Legislation Act 1989 which requires the preparation of a Regulatory Impact Statement where affected persons can put in submissions as groups or individually commenting on the proposed Regulation.

I will read the NSW Subordinate Legislation Act and see what limitations it places on the making of Regulations. Whilst a member of the Shooting Sports Council of Victoria, we were forever responding to RIS documents which affected the shooting sports in any way. The Victorian system allowed the Minister to make a Regulation, but it has to lay on the table in Parliament at the next sitting for I think 2 weeks during which time, the either House of Parliament could disallow the Regulation in whole or in part. That is where individual and group lobbying can have some effect if affected persons disagree with any part of the proposed Regulation.

Under the Victorian system, the Minister was obliged to read and take into consideration the affect to which the proposed regulation affected those against whom it was directed in comparison with the expected public benefits before promulgating the Regulation. The Parliament could still disallow all or part of the Regulation after promulgation if it thought the Regulation was unjustified.

Regulations were obliged to fall under Parliamentary scrutiny and NOT be the entirely under the control of the Minister.

In Victoria, we adopted that RIS system based on the Californian system because too many Victorian governments were beginning to rule by Regulation rather than Legislation if they had a hostile Upper House. The Subordinate Legislation Act put a stop to that and forced public involvement in the Regulatory process.

It will be interesting to see how the NSW system differs from the Victorian in regard to public involvement. If any of us here broadly agree with the proposed Regulation, we should put in a personal submission to that effect based on having read the actual proposed Reg and the RIS.

[GrahameA]

Hi Kevin, et al.

I totally agree with you Looseplucker. The attempt will fire up unnecessary and unhealthy debate and if this passes, the first time there is a problem it will be used mightily.

If for no other reason than the above this is a lees than smart move.

[robmoore]

Is anybody going to respond via the RIS system to this proposed Regulation? It seems that, like Victoria where I come from, NSW has a Subordinate Legislation Act 1989 which requires the preparation of a Regulatory Impact Statement where affected persons can put in submissions as groups or individually commenting on the proposed Regulation.

I will read the NSW Subordinate Legislation Act and see what limitations it places on the making of Regulations. Whilst a member of the Shooting Sports Council of Victoria, we were forever responding to RIS documents which affected the shooting sports in any way. The Victorian system allowed the Minister to make a Regulation, but it has to lay on the table in Parliament at the next sitting for I think 2 weeks during which time, the either House of Parliament could disallow the Regulation in whole or in part. That is where individual and group lobbying can have some effect if affected persons disagree with any part of the proposed Regulation.

Under the Victorian system, the Minister was obliged to read and take into consideration the affect to which the proposed regulation affected those against whom it was directed in comparison with the expected public benefits before promulgating the Regulation. The Parliament could still disallow all or part of the Regulation after promulgation if it thought the Regulation was unjustified.

Regulations were obliged to fall under Parliamentary scrutiny and NOT be the entirely under the control of the Minister.

In Victoria, we adopted that RIS system based on the Californian system because too many Victorian governments were beginning to rule by Regulation rather than Legislation if they had a hostile Upper House. The Subordinate Legislation Act put a stop to that and forced public involvement in the Regulatory process.

It will be interesting to see how the NSW system differs from the Victorian in regard to public involvement. If any of us here broadly agree with the proposed Regulation, we should put in a personal submission to that effect based on having read the actual proposed Reg and the RIS.

Exactly... Thanks Dennis
That's why, when it was first announced, I requested and posted the information from the Game Council here:
http://www.ozbow.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.p ... 85#p128085

I heard part of a radio interview with Brian Boyle explaining reasons for the proposal and requesting interested parties to make themselves aware of all information on the matter and how to properly respond to it. His interview is what prompted me to ask for, and attempt to publicise, the information. I have searched for an online copy of the interview to post here but I have only been able to locate unfavourable edited versions of that so far.

Bob

[jindydiver]

So why should Financial and or Moral standards be an issue. Does that mean that if you come from the lower part of the ladder that you and your children are not fit to go hunting, because you are a bit short on cash, so there fore you are a danger to the rest of the popluace. CRAP. Cheers Roadie.

It is not moral standards, it is moral responsibility, no-one claimed any different.
It is a requirement for the parents to take responsibility for their children and for the actions of their children.


From the "Children (Protection and Parental Responsibility) Act 1997 No 78"

11 Parents contributing to children’s offences

(1) A parent who, by wilful default, has contributed directly or in a material respect to the commission of an offence of which the child has been found guilty, is guilty of an offence.

Maximum penalty: 10 penalty units.

The requirement for a parent to be solvent when taking responsibility for their child when applying for permission to hunt on public land is reasonable, read Looseplucker's post.

No-one is saying that your income or financial position determines your likelihood to be a threat to the public, but it certainly determines your likelihood to be able to redress any financial cost your child's activities generate.