when will it sink in?

[looseplucker]

Talking here about the apologists for pit bull terriers (and its variances and aliasses). One more child, a 4 year old little girl, clinging to her mothert's leg-the instinctive reaction of a terrified kid, vainly trying to get the protection her mother couldn't give. She dies of head injuries. Read "crushed skull". And what do we get in the blogs and on the airwaves? "Mine might lick you to death", "don't blame the breed", and, I can't fathom this "no dog should be left alone with a child". That from the head of an association that promotes the breed. I mean, jut how intellectually dishonest and immoral are these people? The damn animal was unsecured, known by its owner to be dangerous and was not left alone with the kids. then there are the richard craniums saying a maltese is more likely to bite. Yes yes. And how many 4 year olds have been killed by a maltese crushing their skull. What have we become in a society when a child is killed in a pretty horrible way and in response to justified community outrage they appear to spare not one thought for that darling little girl or her mother and lash out at those with the temerity to suggest that children are more important than dogs. For mine either take what steps are necessary to eradicate the things, no ifs or buts or have a licensing regime for particular breeds and variants that is no less stringent than that for a handgun. You have to be fit and proper. You must pass practical and theory tests. Your dog must be properly secured at all times. Your dog must be temperament tested and you and your dog must have passed appropriate training. And you must maintain proficiency. The dog must be muzzled when not secured and must wear a distinctive identity tag to demonstrate to the public that it is an animal for which a licence is required. Any breach of licence requirements, you lose your licence and your dog and face hefty penalties. The dog is destroyed - mandatory - no appeal. And yep, it will cost you. Somehow I can't see the apologia for this damn breed going for that. Too much like accepting and demonstrating actual responsibility. Much easier to run the "dogs don't kill people, people who own them kill people". Sensible firearm owners gave up on that load of old cobblers years ago. Sorry to rant on this, but I looked at the pic of that little girl and looked at a pic of my little girl - only a year older and I just cannot imagine what that poor little mite went through in those final horrifying moments. Then the mother - who couldn't save her baby - and Dad - out of the country and powerless to do what Dads do: protect their kids. Then I think of the apologists for this status symbol breed and note that in their drivel they can't even appear to spare one jot of compassion. What is wrong with those people. Incidentally - apols to any blokes on this site who has one of these things but does the right thing by his community and recognises the potential dangers. This is not directed at you.

[muntries]

LP, how can anyone disagree with what you said here, I totally agree with you. Heard about this at lunch time today and just thought about my little lad who is the same age, what a terrible thing for the little girl to experience, for the mum who was powerless to stop the dog and the whole family who must be experiencing the a living nightmare right now. Gotta say I found it really upsetting.
Simon

[AndyD]

I always wonder what sort of person needs such a "tough" dog.

[Nephew]

I grew up around a lot of folk that kept these kinds of dogs and still know a couple of them, never understood the need myself. If I need reminding that I am a man I just have to look in my pants, not have a vicious killer in my yard to compensate for any perceived inadequacies and/or insecurities. I hope the fool that kept such a creature in suburbia cops a manslaughter charge and is convicted!

Poor little bugger. What an awful thing to endure before death! Imagine the horror for all in the house.

[wishsong]

As a owner of a 101kg Saint bernard , I am a bit torn on this one.
Doubtless that many of the ' Im making up for small willy and lack of success in kickboxing' knobends who own pit bulls / bull arabs etc don't understand why people question such breeds and big dogs in general ... but again we come into that murky area of the 'govt' banning and regulating etc etc when at the very least, again we are faced with stupid and thoughtless people . People who don't understand pretty basic concepts such as social responsibility and common sense.
i hate to see any dog breed blamed but understand the trepidation the community has over such breeds . Going by European history, the banning of such does little if anything to stem such incidents . An abused , maltreated German Shepard is a fearsome thing ... i know, my parents breed them for years and we often took in the less 'socialised ' dogs ... not for long generally as most of them got the 'green dream' pretty quick.
There is no place anywhere for violent aggressive dogs , regardless of breed . The ownership of such animals needs to invoke the full force of the law . Your dog kills , maims or genuinely hurts someone ... It has to be destroyed immediately and the owner should be charged with the equivalent charges at Law.

Perhaps then Johnny Bogan will be less inclined to buy , own or breed such dogs .

But then again , you can't regulate against stupidity.

A few thoughts though ...
I don't have any children ...
The people two doors down own a pit bull cross that scares the **** out of me ...
My thoughts and prayers go to the family and friends of that poor girl, whom by all accounts , have probably been through enough in this life without such further and shocking tragedy.

[looseplucker]

I have a kelpie - she is well trained, loved, socialized and bombproof with kids - but I've seen her in action (like this morning when I was rushed by a dog that broke through a fence and had a go at me - Ruby sorted it quick smart) - and have no doubt that she could inflict some very nasty injuries if she 'turned'. But that is the thing - the more training and time you put in the more you mitigate the risk. Problem is a lot of folk want a dog like a PB and variants because of the machismo and therefore the dog doesnt get anything other than machismo training.

[Bent Stick]

I think everyone has valid points here and I have to say that that particular breed in my own opinion is an abomination of a sick society. I also have a large dog and he is my best mate and thinks he is a puppy sometimes and tries to get on ya lap.

I think if we actually have a look at this objectively like many other social tortures bought up from day to day that we are apart of the problem not the solution.

We are talking about fixing a symptom not the root cause, ban this breed, ban that, ban hunting???? maybe we should just burn some book down the track>?.

Now i am not having a go at anyone and i can't see anything i disagree with on here but if our only solution is to eliminate symptoms what will the next breed be until in 200 years we only have Mexican rat dogs left.

The only successful solution is the elimination of the root cause (and the owner; clown that he may be is another symptom) The mind that requires an unpredictable threat in the backyard is a symptom of ??? I am sure there are several root causes that we could all identify to eliminate and prevent future occurances like this, we still have to deal with the symptoms of course, destroy the aggressor, punish the owner so he learns a lesson but the other next neighbor has the same dog maybe?????

When we sit back and don't exercise our brains and our power to influence the direction of governments, society and norms we are just another gear in the machine responsible for the problems.

In Summary

I agree the breed is a problem
I know the need for the breed is "suspect" at best
Immediate actions: Destroy the animal, Hold the owner accountable and make it public
Long term actions: Parliment Bill - the Dangerous breed ownership and licensing requirements (This includes the validity of the breed as this particular breed has a dark history)
Rewrite the Australian Constitution spending considerable effort on individual rights; this is your baseline and should describe a healthy and happy individual and the freedoms which are theirs by law. This is the baseline that all laws are built upon, while its as slippery as wet bar of soap where the best intentions end up may be 180 degrees away from we foresaw they would be. E.g. banning a breed may end up with the banning of dogs all together.
Education from the ground up.......... not easy finding the socially inept and providing the learning and confidence building to eliminate the inadequacies that require a killer sleeping in the backyard. This is where everyone needs to put in and the government (the poor overpaid incompetents we elect) is going to have to actually do more than talk and actually manage/govern the country.

All in all future occurances will happen and continue to happen until root causes are addressed you can do some probability statistical analysis on this if you like numbers don't lie.

My two bobs worth, lets fix it for good not just for now.

[looseplucker]

I think everyone has valid points here and I have to say that that particular breed in my own opinion is an abomination of a sick society. I also have a large dog and he is my best mate and thinks he is a puppy sometimes and tries to get on ya lap.

I think if we actually have a look at this objectively like many other social tortures bought up from day to day that we are apart of the problem not the solution.

We are talking about fixing a symptom not the root cause, ban this breed, ban that, ban hunting???? maybe we should just burn some book down the track>?.

Now i am not having a go at anyone and i can't see anything i disagree with on here but if our only solution is to eliminate symptoms what will the next breed be until in 200 years we only have Mexican rat dogs left.

The only successful solution is the elimination of the root cause (and the owner; clown that he may be is another symptom) The mind that requires an unpredictable threat in the backyard is a symptom of ??? I am sure there are several root causes that we could all identify to eliminate and prevent future occurances like this, we still have to deal with the symptoms of course, destroy the aggressor, punish the owner so he learns a lesson but the other next neighbor has the same dog maybe?????

When we sit back and don't exercise our brains and our power to influence the direction of governments, society and norms we are just another gear in the machine responsible for the problems.

In Summary

I agree the breed is a problem
I know the need for the breed is "suspect" at best
Immediate actions: Destroy the animal, Hold the owner accountable and make it public
Long term actions: Parliment Bill - the Dangerous breed ownership and licensing requirements (This includes the validity of the breed as this particular breed has a dark history)
Rewrite the Australian Constitution spending considerable effort on individual rights; this is your baseline and should describe a healthy and happy individual and the freedoms which are theirs by law. This is the baseline that all laws are built upon, while its as slippery as wet bar of soap where the best intentions end up may be 180 degrees away from we foresaw they would be. E.g. banning a breed may end up with the banning of dogs all together.
Education from the ground up.......... not easy finding the socially inept and providing the learning and confidence building to eliminate the inadequacies that require a killer sleeping in the backyard. This is where everyone needs to put in and the government (the poor overpaid incompetents we elect) is going to have to actually do more than talk and actually manage/govern the country.

All in all future occurances will happen and continue to happen until root causes are addressed you can do some probability statistical analysis on this if you like numbers don't lie.

My two bobs worth, lets fix it for good not just for now.

Well said - a ban is not going to work - but you can put in many structures such as stringent licensing etc with incredibly tough penalities for transgression - and ally that to education and such and over time we will see a change. But the apologists and excusers who try and deflect it all with "all dogs can bite" or "maltese terriers attack more" - they've got to get on board, because the community will just not put up with children being disfigured and killed by dangerous dogs kept by dangerous people. There is not a politican in the land that would support them.

BTW did you know that it is harder to get a licence to keep particular breeds of native parrot than own a pitbull???

[wishsong]

I agree i theory but in practice cannot see any such measures working .
How do you define the dangerous dogs ? Are cross breeds included ? Mastiff crosses ? Stafffy crosses ? It won't just be about APB's but also Bull Arabs etc ... My Mum use to own an Akita ... would that be included?
If these measures do work , and Johnny Bogan goes and buys himseld 3 Staffy's or even worse the much maligned Bull Terrier ..and again we are faced with unfortunate dog attacks ... Do we then place such procedures against more breeds ?

I understand the need to deal with such an issue but legislating against the tool has never solved anything . Mandatory sentencing against those persons whose animals act in such a way inc civil lawsuits and jail time may deter somewhat but more "laws" ? Such laws only ever affect the law abiding citizen ... Barry Knob Jockey didn't follow the rules in the first place so why assume he will now ?

I remain torn on this and don't really have a answer ... but 'banning' , regulating, registering etc are just more litle rules that cost money and time , whilst , I would suggest not really averting any such further horrific incidents .

Again ... lets look at the owners rather than the breed ..... and let them face the wrath of community retribution through a hardened court system ... Coz they ain't gonna turn up and fill out paperwork for their new puppy just becuase the lady from the Government told them to ...

[looseplucker]

I agree i theory but in practice cannot see any such measures working .
How do you define the dangerous dogs ? Are cross breeds included ? Mastiff crosses ? Stafffy crosses ? It won't just be about APB's but also Bull Arabs etc ... My Mum use to own an Akita ... would that be included?
If these measures do work , and Johnny Bogan goes and buys himseld 3 Staffy's or even worse the much maligned Bull Terrier ..and again we are faced with unfortunate dog attacks ... Do we then place such procedures against more breeds ?

I understand the need to deal with such an issue but legislating against the tool has never solved anything . Mandatory sentencing against those persons whose animals act in such a way inc civil lawsuits and jail time may deter somewhat but more "laws" ? Such laws only ever affect the law abiding citizen ... Barry Knob Jockey didn't follow the rules in the first place so why assume he will now ?

I remain torn on this and don't really have a answer ... but 'banning' , regulating, registering etc are just more litle rules that cost money and time , whilst , I would suggest not really averting any such further horrific incidents .

Again ... lets look at the owners rather than the breed ..... and let them face the wrath of community retribution through a hardened court system ... Coz they ain't gonna turn up and fill out paperwork for their new puppy just becuase the lady from the Government told them to ...

Problem is thes people don't give a faff about the community or whether they might be breaking any law. They regard themselves as outlaws. I think we need a mix of breed regulation, owner licensing and the wrath of hell in penalty if your dog turns. At the moment it is a complete farce. The bloke in Melbourne might only get a $4500 fine. No manslaughter charge.....I remember also a Magistrate in Canberra had the complete lack of testicular fortitude to not order the destruction of a pitbull that savaged a guide dog that couldnt work any more. He was more moved by the pleas of the bogan that owned the savage PB that it would cost him "his best mate". How about the blind person? This same magistrate went on to become the Chief Magistrate after stabbing his boss in the back and is now a Supreme Court Judge....he has political connections, which are a sufficient substitute for integrity anywhere in the world

[wishsong]

This same magistrate went on to become the Chief Magistrate after stabbing his boss in the back and is now a Supreme Court Judge....he has political connections, which are a sufficient substitute for integrity anywhere in the world

Mate ,
Do i detect just the faintest hint of cynacism ?
Surely not .......

[looseplucker]

Naaaaaaaah.

And not a tittle of sarcasm in that neither.

I used to appear in front of this bloke when he was a beak. The less said then I will reduce the risk of the site being sued for defamation - but I do understand when he was bumped up to the Supreme Court one highly respected Magistrate did comment: "The Magistrate's Court gain is the Supreme Court's loss"

Ouch!

[Benny Nganabbarru]

Ban this, ban that. A lot of people can't understand our need for a bow.

The history of mankind is long and full of tragedy, which doesn't make it any less painful or difficult, but assures us that bad stuff will indeed happen from time-to-time, no matter how safe we try to make life.

[Stickbow Hunter]

I really feel for the parents and loved ones of that poor little girl; what a horrific thing they have, and are, going through. However I am not for banning this dog or that dog. As has been said more banning, more legislation, more cost and on it goes; where does it stop.

I think people have a right to keep pets so long as they aren't aggressive towards people. Not all pit bulls or any other type of dog are dangerous. IMO it all stems from how the dog is brought up and trained etc and not to do with what breed it is. If I remember correctly quite some years ago a fox terrier killed a new baby in its home. I don't see them being banned and they can be nasty little beggars. I am extremely wary of any red or blue healer but are they banned?

What information do we have regarding this latest terrible incident other than what the media sprout (remember the media we all don't trust ). What was the reason behind this attack? Was the dog provoked (doesn't excuse what happened but was something done to it) ? Was the dog known to be aggressive towards people? Did the dog suddenly snap for some unknown reason.

Sometimes animals can snap for unknown reasons as we often see on the news - tiger, lion, elephant, horse, bull, whale etc suddenly turn on their trainers/owners for no apparent reason.

I think each case should be handled on an individual basis and not a blanket ban put on one breed or another otherwise as I said above, where does it end. If there is an aggression problem with any dog or animal then the owners have a responsibility to have it put down or taken and kept secured away from people and not kept in their house yard. If the owners know the animal is aggressive and a danger to the public and don't take action then yes they deserve to be dealt with according to law. However it the animal has never shown any kind of aggression and just snaps I fail to see how the owners should be prosecuted as they had no idea the animal would suddenly snap; the animal should be put down though.

So, what I am saying is case by case not blanket bans.

Jeff

[Mick Smith]

We, as bowhunters, know exactly how it feels when people (who feel they know what's best for everybody) talk about restricting our way of life or even banning it. So shouldn't we be a little more understanding now that the boot is on the other foot.

I don't know what the answers are, but I simply can't support the banning of anything.

Personally I don't understand why anybody would want such a dog, but then again there are many people who don't understand us either. From what I saw on the television, the owner of the dog seemed responsible enough. It had a special and well maintained yard, complete with everything the dog would have needed to be happy.

Every time I think of what the poor child and her mother had to go though, my heart goes out to them, but in situations such as this, it's all too easy to let your emotions take control. There has to be an answer that, with a little compromise, will be acceptable to the owners of these types of dog and to the public at large.

Mick

[excelpoint]

First off I feel so much for the young girl and family. It is such a tragedy. I have a 4 year old boy and 9 year old girl and just cannot imagine what the family is going through.

At the moment there are already regulations in Victoria about the owning of a Pitbull Terrier. They must be muzzled when off your property, never be let off leash in public even in "off Leash parks". Your property must be sign posted to alert the public you have a dangerous breed on the premises. They are not allowed to be bred and are meant to be desexed. They are not a recognized breed in Australia by the ANKC.

All these regs will still not stop the idiots owning them and bringing them up to be nothing more then another aggressive dog.

I have been around the breeding, showing, field and retrieving trialing and judging of Utility Gundogs (GSP, Vizla, Munsterlander etc) for a fair while and had a fair bit of exposure to different breeds including Pitbulls. I have seen outright aggression in all breeds and on the flip side have seen the best of all these breeds as well.

Funnily enough you don't see many issues with the American Staffodshire Terrier (a recognized breed in Australia) which was actually the original Pitbull Terrier (only known differently now because of a name change adopted by the American Kennel control council). They have the same breeds in them in the background as well, so there is a lot of argument that it is more in the breeding (selective line breeding and outcrossing for good temperament) and rearing of such animals as to the way they turn out.

People always ask me if I trust my dogs around kids. My response is I trust my dogs around kids but I don't trust kids around my dogs especially younger ones. They just have a habit of poking, pulling etc dogs at the worst time.

I think the laws we have are adequate for dangerous dogs but I think the penalties need to be applied to their full capacity not just the minimum.

We need to be able to step back a little and place blame in the right place. Blame should be leveled firstly at the owner of the dog and secondly at the individual dog not the entire breed. Throw the book at both of them to the fullest extent.

I know one thing though and that is in all the time I have spent around dogs the most out and out aggressive dog I have ever come across was a Labrador. This thing was just plain aggressive. No fear response and to all my knowledge no mistreatment and was bred from very well respected lines but was just plain aggressive.

[Benny Nganabbarru]

Sometimes it'd be nice to have a dog to defend family and property, if a good balance could be struck.

[looseplucker]

And here is the rub Ben. My kelpie dekended me this morning. On three legs cause she has a post thorn infection. But. The issue is, like it is with anything potentially lethal: what happens when it is not in the right hands? I've hunted with a few blokes here. I trust them. I trust the ones with which I have not. We are the rule which scorns the exception. How do we feel about the idiot who wounds animals with a bow?

Btw the Ceo of Rspca in the ACT who would pay (donated) money to stop yall bowhunting is an apologist for, and owner of, guess the frack what:

A pit bull.

He is also an intellectually dishonest git.

I will not invite you to " go figure".

[Nephew]

That's the conundrum in this, IMHO it's not specifically about a breed, but an attitude held by the owner. How do you legislate against insecurity or just plain nastiness? Take one breed away from these types with such inflated but fragile egos, and they will find another that they feel expresses to the world that they are a "MAN" to be reckoned with... including a few women! . If not dogs, there will be another medium, but whatever you do you can't regulate an "FTW" attitude out of existence. Society will always have a small minority of recalcitrant individuals that have a need to constantly radiate an exaggerated, almost satirical, sense of masculinity and some of those enhance it through their dogs. There is surely no doubt that many responsible people own these, and other breeds, of dog that could be classified "dangerous" commendably in a safe and secure environment. Maybe if there must be legislation involved it could go that way... conditions, environment and standards that must be upheld, rather than breeds allowed? Thing is, how do you police it? You can't just go around inspecting yards for adequate pet compounds. Certainly is a sticky one, this.

Funny thing is, so far I've never met this kind of fella through bowhunting.

[captainzing]

l Can see a lot of relevant points here folks . One point I heard on the tele the other nite really made me sit up and think . This person stated in Ontario Canada ( Where I was born ) the authorities banned Pit Bulls . This was deemed ineffective as the problem was not with the breed as much as with the owner . The owners of the pit bulls then bought Rottweilers . This made me think the dog is not the issue as much as the owner .

I feel deeply for the parents of that poor child that was mauled/murdered by that pit bull and think the owner should be doing time for his/her actions or lack of . Yes I am very emotional about this issue , but it bothers me heaps........... and it keeps rearing its ugly head time and time again . As a father of 4 , when am I going to have to defend my own ( and make no butts about it I will to the end ) against these breeds !!!

Cheers Captain Zing

[Brigsy]

I own a 7 year old pitbull cross. I have had him since he was 4 weeks old And he has caught me well over a thousand pigs. But around the home he is the biggest sook you can immagine. From the day i got him he has been around young kids (suppervised) and any other animal possible. He sleeps with the cat most nights. I trust him 100% but i never forget what he is and he is always in a secure yard and never offleash anywhere i go unless we are hunting pigs i just dont trust people or other dogs because if anything happened he would be blammed because of his breed.
Its the same with any animal the owners need to take full responsibility! Like people that own Border collies and keep them locked up in small yards and wonder why they destroy everything they can.
It is true that alot of people get the breed to big note themselves But it is the same as people who brag about owning firearms and such. It is terrible what happened And children should always come first and the dog(s) responsible should be put doan and the owner should be chrged and never aloud to own any animal.
But not all dogs are the same. I will do anything for my dog and he for me. There is no other dog i trust to crawl into lantanna tunnels behind after a big boar as i do Fletcher.
chris

[Brigsy]

As always it is the small few that give a bad name to all others.
Pig doggers in general get a bad name because of a few cowboys that do the wrong thing and hunt where there not ment to with half trained dogs. None of my dogs leave the yard till they no right from wrong and they are taught what not to chase before they even start looking at pigs. It is a necessary tool in takling the pig problem in alot of areas. I have heaps of properties that i can no longer hunt because docs wont let me chase dogs around anymore and there is no way of getting the pigs without them ( trust me i have tried) And the farmers need the pigs gone.
I know its a little off topic but its something i am passionate about.
chris

[dalbyboy]

I agree with Chris completely on the pig dog side right here.
My brother has a bull arab cross wolf hound cross this cross that which has more than enough potential to take down adults let alone children.
But does it attack people? No. For one thing it is kept in a eight foot high fence enclosure but the main thing is that it is trained.
Trained for pigging, trained for a purpose because of the breed's characteristics.
I think the problem is such breeds were refined for a reason and without proper stimulation such as the reason they were bred, they will get stimulation from somewhere else.
A dog is this state won't be picky with what kind of activity it can do.

I think it isn't the dog's fault they attack, the owner is responsible for that animal, what it does and how it is kept.
There aren't any bad breeds, just bad owners. That man should have been jailed, fined, dogs destroyed and banned from getting another breed of dog considered dangerous.
Perhaps there needs to be licencing, but maybe just for a genuine purpose for keeping such animals and have proper enclosures.

But if worse comes to worse, it might end up all dangerous breeds being considered "side arms" under the weapons licencing act as opposed to just attack dogs.

[TomMcDonald]

I don't know.
I've got 2 Blue Heelers (watch out Jeff ) and they are both males, bot around 2 1/2. Both brought up the same. one is a real bully: he hassles other dogs all the time for no apparent reason. It's come to the point where I can't have him off the lead at a dog park because he just picks on all the other dogs. No matter what kind of training I give him either. The other one is just the opposite though. He will lick you till you die, and will play with any dog that'll have him.

I've got a feeling individual dog personality also plays a part here.
I do agree though, that the owner of whatever dog probably has the most influence over their personality.

[looseplucker]

The only dog he doesnt bully is Ruby the Wonderkelpie when dad gives her permission by the use of "sool 'm"

[TomMcDonald]

The only dog he doesnt bully is Ruby the Wonderkelpie when dad gives her permission by the use of "sool 'm"

John, he's a real scaredy cat really, you and the WK just know how to exploit that.

[looseplucker]

He is a lovely dog - both yours are. I remember us all in your car after looking at that stand of osage and Rocky and Jackson all over William with Ruby joining in.

And she is more cunning than a toothbrush that kelpie.This morning she trotted very quietly to the gap in the fence where the dog came through the other week and waited. I walk by - it barks and sticks its muzzle through the gap. BANG! She nails it again. Walking back up the track this cur sees me coming. Stays on the back porch. They can be taught.

Is Jackson still nailing rabbits?

[TomMcDonald]

He is a lovely dog - both yours are. I remember us all in your car after looking at that stand of osage and Rocky and Jackson all over William with Ruby joining in.

And she is more cunning than a toothbrush that kelpie.This morning she trotted very quietly to the gap in the fence where the dog came through the other week and waited. I walk by - it barks and sticks its muzzle through the gap. BANG! She nails it again. Walking back up the track this cur sees me coming. Stays on the back porch. They can be taught.

Is Jackson still nailing rabbits?

Thanks John, yes I remember that too. Many an unsuspecting victim has had their faces coated in Rocky saliva.

That's great. Ruby is a real scalliwag.

Jackson hasn't got a rabbit in a while but we're hunting very rough terrain up here now. He'll get there.

[looseplucker]

[/quote]Many an unsuspecting victim has had their faces coated in Rocky saliva.[/quote]

As I recall essentially Rocky was holding William down with Jackson and Ruby - it was a conspiracy of Heelers and a Kelpie to give William a thorough-going snoofling.

[TomMcDonald]

Many an unsuspecting victim has had their faces coated in Rocky saliva.[/quote]

As I recall essentially Rocky was holding William down with Jackson and Ruby - it was a conspiracy of Heelers and a Kelpie to give William a thorough-going snoofling.[/quote]

Yep John that sounds about right. Im sure Ruby was more than happy to join in.
I'll be in Canberra at the end of the month if you want to meet up for a dog walk around Aranda.